113 réponses à ce sujet

[Pincey]

The reason i am asking this is simply because i didn't like how the snow wyvern quest was resolved. After you get the scene where she gives the potion (which doesn't work even though you give her the proper heart) to Duke Bastien. You get another scene where at skyhold where the Duke's family is visiting. One of them is a Council of Heralds member, the other one is a pious person connected to The Chantry. If you choose the angry fist options, you learn that she played you and used the lover's death to gain more power with the Council of Heralds and The Chantry via the Duke's family. And it's "The Game"...FU and the game. Also i wouldn't be suprised if this option helps Vivienne in some way to become Divine and since i don't want her to have even more power.

 

So there are three options that i know.

 

Option 1 - Don't recruit her period. Viable but i loose a backup dragon killer.

 

Option 2 - Refuse the Snow Wyvern Heart Quest. Viable this pisses her off but you lose the Enchanter Chair (Mage Throne).

 

Option 3 - Give her a normal Wyvern heart and get the Enchanter Throne i think?. I don't know much about this option and need some info about it. What happens after you get the potion giving scene? Does Bastien's family still come to Skyhold making Vivienne power up with contacts and connections with The Council of Heralds and The Chantry?

 

Other thoughts on Vivianne.

hmmm Vivianne is way older than she looks. Grandma Age it seems. This is hinted by three things:

1. By the Nightmare Demon in the Fade, Stating something along the lines that she was too young to be First Enchanter.
2. Also by the fact she know's how to make Anti-Aging potion (and uses it on herself more than likely), and
3. Her First Tarot Card, there is an Old Crone (Woman i think) in the Back.

 

http://dragonage.wik...vienne/Dialogue

Cole also hints that she was possessed by a Demon during her Harrowing (possible Control issues). She was digusted by Sleeping with Duke Bastien and wanted the lights out (Sleeping her way to the top). And that she set up the Marquise Alphonse to attack you at her party in the intro scene as a way to gain your trust.

 

Also it's vague as to whether she ever planned to save the Duke with the Anti Aging Potion? The Potion takes Three days to make. So the question would be where she made the potion since by the third day it's useless. Skyhold vs Val Royal. Travel distance and all that. Also the Duke's Sister states that Bastien disease was uncurable, he was going to die anyway during her visit at skyhold after the potion scene. So why bother to use an anti-aging potion if he was going to die from the disease anyway? She probably knew the potion wouldn't work and did it as a way to profit from her lover's death.

 

So is option 3 a viable way to beat her at her own game with that Quest or will she still find a way to profit from it?

 

Edited to refllect changes pointed out by (agonis and Virgulec).

 

She was almost possessed at the Harrowing by a Demon or at another time in her past. And she more than likely did love Duke Bastien. While she did set up Marquise Alphonse, he was also asking for it it seems. (agonis and Virgulec pointed this out)

 

(I've decided to take option 3 and ruin the quest. I'm not sure if i will get a family scene or any scene concerning the quest after the Sabotage. Also making Leliana is the best way and sabotaging the quest is probably the best way to outplay her. i did enjoy reading other forum users interpretation on her motivations and the Quest Scene itself. i really wish i knew more on how that anti aging potion works, because it think Vivianne gave him a day 2 potion, since i never saw a Day 1 potion effect. A Day 2 potion has only has subtle effects which would explain the duke talking but not showing any visible signs of anti aging. A Day 1 potion i think should of done more, he might of still died but he should of died younger.)

Modifié par Pincey, 13 janvier 2015 - 06:52 .

[ThreeF]

Option 4. Accept the quest and never finish it. She can wait forever, who cares about the silly chair?

 

I doubt Keep will see it as an option, but in-game it's a very viable option and keeps everyone happy. 

[MiyuEmi]

I just didn't do her quest on the War Table to support her as Divine.  Although small, it was satisfying to see her not get what she wanted and for my support to give the position to someone I wanted to see have it.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I did her quest, gave her the correct heart and the game told me I got the "Enchanter Seat"... but I can't find it in the list of thrones. So... meh.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I just didn't do her quest on the War Table to support her as Divine.  Although small, it was satisfying to see her not get what she wanted and for my support to give the position to someone I wanted to see have it.

 

I didn't get or do any war table mission for any candidate. I told Cassandra that I'd support her but I'd rather have her stay with me. Leliana gave me the Left Hand of the Divine quest and Vivienne never even came up as candidate. In the end I got my hardened Leliana as Divine, as it should be.

[agonis]

 

http://dragonage.wik...vienne/Dialogue

Cole also hints that she was possessed by a Demon during her Harrowing (Control issues). She was digusted by Sleeping with Duke Bastien and wanted the lights out (Sleeping her way to the top). And that she set up the Marquise Alphonse to attack you at her party in the intro scene as a way to gain your trust.

 

 

First, thank you for the link. I have this stupid banter bug and don´t hear morst of the party banter.

 

I think you understood something wrong here:

 

• Inquisitor: Cole, Vivienne doesn't want to talk right now.
• Cole: She's afraid!

• Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again.
• Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me.
• Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.
• Vivienne: Delightful.

 

"No one will ever controll me again". That doesn´t mean she was possessed by a demon.

 

And the other part:

 

• Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
• Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
• Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
• Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
• Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

 

Alphonse mocks both Vivienne and Bastien. Bastien because he is old and not desirable (Alphonse assumes Vivienne uses him) and Vivienne because she is black.

There is no hint that she is disgustet by Bastien at all.

 

Vivienne is a b****. She has to be to survive the Game. Of course she tries get some profit of Bastiens death, but that doesn´t mean she didn´t love him.

Complicated, yes. Unexplainable, no.

[abisha]

at first i really hate her, when i start playing DA:I.

but can understand people really do not like her character, likely reason they made her so in the first place.

but come to respect her she stands for something. if it floats your boat.

 

like her even more then Sera or Cole, she makes total no nonsense about many things.

and Cole total weird, uninteresting, boring o yea to much good shoer. o yea that stupid looking hat of him.

[MiyuEmi]

I only go the War Table quest after going to speak with her on completion of her personal quest.  She begins discussing the Divine, Cassandra and Leliana, you can state that you want Cassandra or Leliana (and she will agree) but then there will be a war table job listed with Vivienne's photograph behind it to support her as Divine.

[Daerog]

I like Vivienne, she is the Divine in my canon.

That said, you could play the Game by accepting her quest, doing it, allying with the rebel mages, then make Leliana Divine (bleh...) and presto.

No more Circle, her rivals hold power in the College of Enchanters, and gains nothing after helping you do all of it.

Maybe make Gaspard emperor since Celene is interested in magic? Maybe she would lose her place as court enchanter and have nothing but some wealth and an estate after Inquisition...

[Virgulec]

First, thank you for the link. I have this stupid banter bug and don´t hear morst of the party banter.

 

I think you understood something wrong here:

 

• Inquisitor: Cole, Vivienne doesn't want to talk right now.
• Cole: She's afraid!

• Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again.
• Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me.
• Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.
• Vivienne: Delightful.

 

"No one will ever controll me again". That doesn´t mean she was possessed by a demon.

 

And the other part:

 

• Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
• Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
• Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
• Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
• Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

 

Alphonse mocks both Vivienne and Bastien. Bastien because he is old and not desirable (Alphonse assumes Vivienne uses him) and Vivienne because she is black.

There is no hint that she is disgustet by Bastien at all.

 

Vivienne is a b****. She has to be to survive the Game. Of course she tries get some profit of Bastiens death, but that doesn´t mean she didn´t love him.

Complicated, yes. Unexplainable, no.

If you remember correctly, the harrowing(DAO), is about fending off a demon or demons(even your companions get controlled for a while) that wants to control you. If by some chance they almost had and you broke free, then her statement was an implication that she has conquered herself(weakness) and the demon(s).

 

"...Vivienne because she is black..." I'm not sure where you got this from, but some Orlaisians are of darker complexion. I didn't get any feeling of resentment towards those citizens from the conversations I listened in on or been privy to engage in(banter bug maybe?). Then again, they all wear masks, Solas made a nice statement to Cole on that.

 

Also, I disagreed with her on the circle and the chantry. I did get her Wyvern quest and gave her the real heart and asked what is it about(she slightly disagreed of me asking). I did not get a throne or chair, maybe I missed it. I also did not see his family coming to Skyhold. Doing a new play-through now and I'll pay attention this time.

[Daerog]

I only go the War Table quest after going to speak with her on completion of her personal quest. She begins discussing the Divine, Cassandra and Leliana, you can state that you want Cassandra or Leliana (and she will agree) but then there will be a war table job listed with Vivienne's photograph behind it to support her as Divine.

Other factors play a role, like if you support the chantry or the circle as they are or say how necessary they are at any point in the game, those are points to Viv and maybe Cassandra.

It's over the course of the game, not just the Divine discussions.

[Aramintai]

This is what you do - never put an idea about mages and specifically her in the Chantry into her head, both in Haven and Skyhold talks. Then you can do whatever you want, her wyvern quest will just net you approval with her, and she can plot whatever she wants - she won't be Divine. It's also quite deliciously ironic if Leliana disbands Circles - you'll make her worst dream come true, she'll become irrelevant  Personally, I like that, because although she's a badass mage, she's also a power hungry insincere ******, even most of your companions catch her on that.

[Melyanna]

Nobody can outplay Vivienne at her own game, my dear.

[Pincey]

I did her quest, gave her the correct heart and the game told me I got the "Enchanter Seat"... but I can't find it in the list of thrones. So... meh.

 

Hmm i think the Throne is called "Mage". Is the Giant Throne you see in the Templar choice mission quest at Ther(something) where the templars are praying to break the barrier to get the Envy Demon.

Modifié par Pincey, 09 janvier 2015 - 11:19 .

[agonis]

If you remember correctly, the harrowing(DAO), is about fending off a demon or demons(even your companions get controlled for a while) that wants to control you. If by some chance they almost had and you broke free, then her statement was an implication that she has conquered herself(weakness) and the demon(s).

 

"...Vivienne because she is black..." I'm not sure where you got this from, but some Orlaisians are of darker complexion. I didn't get any feeling of resentment towards those citizens from the conversations I listened in on or been privy to engage in(banter bug maybe?). Then again, they all wear masks, Solas made a nice statement to Cole on that.

 

Also, I disagreed with her on the circle and the chantry. I did get her Wyvern quest and gave her the real heart and asked what is it about(she slightly disagreed of me asking). I did not get a throne or chair, maybe I missed it. I also did not see his family coming to Skyhold. Doing a new play-through now and I'll pay attention this time.

 

I remember the harrowing. I played mage in DA:O.

 

Coles banter implicates that she is on the edge during her own harrowing. The demon is pretty close to get her but she simply resists. No one will controll her ever again. It could mean that there was something in her past. Not necessarily during the harrowing.

 

The second: Alphonse´ mockery: "But then, she must dissapear in the dark."

 

Of course. She is black.

(My Qunari also tends to dissapear in the dark)

 

Even if being black is no insult in Thedas he made it sound like one.

[Pincey]

First, thank you for the link. I have this stupid banter bug and don´t hear morst of the party banter.

 

I think you understood something wrong here:

 

• Inquisitor: Cole, Vivienne doesn't want to talk right now.
• Cole: She's afraid!

• Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again.
• Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me.
• Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.
• Vivienne: Delightful.

 

"No one will ever controll me again". That doesn´t mean she was possessed by a demon.

 

And the other part:

 

• Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
• Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
• Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
• Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
• Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

 

Alphonse mocks both Vivienne and Bastien. Bastien because he is old and not desirable (Alphonse assumes Vivienne uses him) and Vivienne because she is black.

There is no hint that she is disgustet by Bastien at all.

 

Vivienne is a b****. She has to be to survive the Game. Of course she tries get some profit of Bastiens death, but that doesn´t mean she didn´t love him.

Complicated, yes. Unexplainable, no.

 

Fair enough, you interpretation is probably closer to the mark. She still set the Marquis Alphonse at the party but yeah. Will edit post to reflect this since i dislike making bad interpretations. I didn't get the black vibe angle thou. Orlesians might be descrimatory to other nations and racist to demi(non)-humans but i didn't get the skin colour thou.

 

If you remember correctly, the harrowing(DAO), is about fending off a demon or demons(even your companions get controlled for a while) that wants to control you. If by some chance they almost had and you broke free, then her statement was an implication that she has conquered herself(weakness) and the demon(s).

 

"...Vivienne because she is black..." I'm not sure where you got this from, but some Orlaisians are of darker complexion. I didn't get any feeling of resentment towards those citizens from the conversations I listened in on or been privy to engage in(banter bug maybe?). Then again, they all wear masks, Solas made a nice statement to Cole on that.

 

Also, I disagreed with her on the circle and the chantry. I did get her Wyvern quest and gave her the real heart and asked what is it about(she slightly disagreed of me asking). I did not get a throne or chair, maybe I missed it. I also did not see his family coming to Skyhold. Doing a new play-through now and I'll pay attention this time.

 

Cool thanks for clarifying. Will edit my post to change, since i dislike having bad interpretations.

 

This is what you do - never put an idea about mages and specifically her in the Chantry into her head, both in Haven and Skyhold talks. Then you can do whatever you want, her wyvern quest will just net you approval with her, and she can plot whatever she wants - she won't be Divine. It's also quite deliciously ironic if Leliana disbands Circles - you'll make her worst dream come true, she'll become irrelevant  Personally, I like that, because although she's a badass mage, she's also a power hungry insincere ******, even most of your companions catch her on that.

 

My first run i got Cassandra but that was because i was trying to please everyone to get trophies and stuff. My poor qunari was too agreeable, suprised Cassandra preveiled over Vivianne, i was lucky. 2nd Run, allied with mages, got Leliana as Divine i was please. Third run, conscripted Templars, aiming for Leliana as divine, not sure how that affects Vivienne thou.

Modifié par Pincey, 09 janvier 2015 - 11:19 .

[Ieldra]

Wow, quite a bit of stuff about Vivienne that never came up in my three completed games.... I didn't know about that visit, and as for having played me, well, I had my suspicions about Alphonse - and no problem with it - but it seems the issue with Duke Bastien is not completely clear. If Duke Bastien's death was unintended I can't really fault her for taking advantage of the situation, and if it was not, she's a really good actor. She did sound as if she genuinely cared for him, and if so, why not take advantage of that in other ways?

 

I don't like her ideology regarding the mage issue - she sounds too much like those who justified the excesses of the "War on Terror" - and I don't want her as the Divine since she represents the institutional power of the Chantry more than anyone else, and I also don't like her condescending attitude, but that's all. I'm already foiling her plans by supporting someone else as the Divine (with success, so far, every time).

 

Is there anything conclusive about how to interpret the scene with Duke Bastien?

[Virgulec]

I remember the harrowing. I played mage in DA:O.

 

Coles banter implicates that she is on the edge during her own harrowing. The demon is pretty close to get her but she simply resists. No one will controll her ever again. It could mean that there was something in her past. Not necessarily during the harrowing.

 

The second: Alphonse´ mockery: "But then, she must dissapear in the dark."

 

Of course. She is black.

(My Qunari also tends to dissapear in the dark)

 

Even if being black is no insult in Thedas he made it sound like one.

Yeah, forgot about that mockery from him... The Harrowing is one part of DA:O I really enjoyed(I know, I'm in the minority) almost came close to accepting it's offer.

[Pincey]

Best way to f*ck her over is to give her the normal wyvern heart, and don't agree with anything she says when she asks about the political views on mages.

 

Oh, and when you give her that wyvern heart... respond with "Well, sh*t," for the best effect.

 

Does the Duke's Family (Brother and Sister) still visit Skyhold after the potion scene?

[Pincey]

Wow, quite a bit of stuff about Vivienne that never came up in my three completed games.... I didn't know about that visit, and as for having played me, well, I had my suspicions about Alphonse - and no problem with it - but it seems the issue with Duke Bastien is not completely clear. If Duke Bastien's death was unintended I can't really fault her for taking advantage of the situation, and if it was not, she's a really good actor. She did sound as if she genuinely cared for him, and if so, why not take advantage of that in other ways?

 

I don't like her ideology regarding the mage issue - she sounds too much like those who justified the excesses of the "War on Terror" - and I don't want her as the Divine since she represents the institutional power of the Chantry more than anyone else, and I also don't like her condescending attitude, but that's all. I'm already foiling her plans by supporting someone else as the Divine (with success, so far, every time).

 

Is there anything conclusive about how to interpret the scene with Duke Bastien?

 

Concerning Duke Bastien, I'm not sure. Vivienne isn't an idiot, she is highly intelligent and lusts for power. The disease the Duke had was uncurable (The sister admits this). Vivienne would know the effects of the Anti-aging potions. After all would you take an anti aging potion if you didn't have some idea it didn't work and vivienne doesn't strike me as someone that would blindly take something without knowning how it works. I'm trying to find the codex on the potion since it appears near her when you are on the quest or after you have the heart. I remember that the potion is useless on day 3, and most potent on day 1. Day 2 had some effects but not as good. Also how quickly does the potion take effect. Vivienne would know this but the potion seems to do bugger all on the Duke and he dies shortly after taking the potion. He can speak for a few words before "Dying" straight away. Also another question to ask is would someone dying from an uncurable disease life longer if that person would be younger? (real world equivalent, you have a brain tumour, would you being 10 years younger for example stop you from dying for that tumour for at least 10 years?)

 

So the question is did she know the potion wouldn't work? Did the potion itself kill the duke? or did she dilute it so it wouldn't work? I operate under the assumption that Vivianne is aware of how the potion works. Also can the potion work on others besides Vivianne?

 

First option would fit with profiting from the her's death an still caring. Since i don't think she is an idiot and know's the limits of her potion from self using. Also she would seem more human and not a monster. The potions doesn't work and the duke still dies anywhere since the disease of the Duke is stronger than the potion. The potion didn't speed up the duke's death. 

 

Second Option - She Euthanised the Duke without his consent. She knew that the potion would have an adverse effect on the Duke and banked on it to get her Chanter and council of heralds power. Also it could be that the potion only works on her and no one else. If she could stop the suffering of the duke permanently and gain power, all the better.

 

Third option - It is unknown how quickly the anti aging potion effects kicks in. Since the only effect of the potion is that the duke can speak a few words before dying again. You don't see any other effect or anti aging effect. It possible that she diluted it since she didn't want it to be known that she can reserve age anyone. After all if it becomes common knowledge that she knows how to reserve age, it would undermine her power and leads into unwelcome inquiry on her past. And this would also foil her plans on staying on the Sunburst throne or becoming Grand Enchanter for as long as possible since no one wants a undying but sexy lich ruler. Also with the divine angle is death is the way to get rid of a Divine. (unless there is evidence of voluntary self retirement or forced retirement. Can Grand clerics vote a divine of the seat?) If so, i doubt thedas would be impressed if a undying Vivienne (like flemith) rules the Sunburst throne. An Undying Divine Chantry Mage

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=lK-DN3rP3xw if you read some of the comments here, they speculate that she was poisoning him.

Nyrufa  ends up saying "If you read the other comments, you'd see the truth. Vivienne used her "lover's" deeply religious ties and connections to the nobility to secure herself a position with both the Chantry and the Council of Orlais. She flat out admits this if you accuse her of scheming. If you botch her potion, she says that she mistook you for somebody who was easily manipulated and naive. So yeah, I think she was feeding him poison!"

 

First interpretation is the most human way to look at it. Second less so and third makes her look lust for power at any cost type of person.

Modifié par Pincey, 09 janvier 2015 - 12:18 .

[DaemionMoadrin]

Hmm i think the Throne is called "Mage". Is the Giant Throne you see in the Templar choice mission quest at Ther(something) where the templars are praying to break the barrier to get the Envy Demon.

 

Yep, I just checked and you are right. I do have the mage throne now. In fact, I have all the thrones. Probably not upgraded fully though.

[TudorWolf]

I dunno, I think she really does love Bastien, it's just that his death was inevitable, potion or no. For that moment when he dies she does genuinely seem upset, she just quickly buries it again, as she does. It's fairly in character for Viv to turn the whole thing to her advantage regardless.

[daveliam]

I dunno, I think she really does love Bastien, it's just that his death was inevitable, potion or no. For that moment when he dies she does genuinely seem upset, she just quickly buries it again, as she does. It's fairly in character for Viv to turn the whole thing to her advantage regardless.

This is always how I've read the situation: she loved Bastien and genuinely tried to help him. She showed real remorse when he died. It was a moment of weakness where she let the mask slip for a moment. Then, in true Vivienne fashion, she quickly recovered, readjusted her mask, and returned to the game. She just turned a tragedy to her advantage. It's exactly how I would expect her to react. She's such a complex and interesting character.