This is always how I've read the situation: she loved Bastien and genuinely tried to help him.
If this is the case why did she tell me to support Cellene at the Winter Palace? She had to know this would be the end of him. The thing is she would keep her position as Grand Enchanter to the Imperial Court if Cellene kept power.
I loved Vivienne no matter how a ****** she is.
If this is the case why did she tell me to support Cellene at the Winter Palace? She had to know this would be the end of him. The thing is she would keep her position as Grand Enchanter to the Imperial Court if Cellene kept power.
I'm not sure if I follow. How does keeping Celene in power at the Winter Palace lead to Bastien's death? My understanding is that he's been sick for quitesome time and, by the time Vivienne asks for you help, it's already to late for him. I don't see how Celene has anything to do with it. Vivienne wants you to keep Celene on the throne because Celene has been a political ally of hers for years. She stands to lose her position if either Gaspard or Briala get the throne. It's in her best interest to keep status quo in Orlais.
Nobody can outplay Vivienne at her own game, my dear.
As I read that I couldn't help but hear Indira Varma say it in her Vivienne voice 
In regards the topic question, I have to agree with others that have basically stated do everything in your power to get Leliana as Divine (I have a feeling Cass would actually give Vivienne some position in her ranks), have the Mages as Allies not conscripts, have Gaspard or Briala as Emperor (or Emperor with Puppetmaster in Briala's case) and thus I don't think it would really matter what happens on Vivienne's personal quest if you decided to recruit her. Though by not recruiting her I'd say you've further ensured she becomes totally irrelevant.
Thus technically it would be possible to 'outplay' her because you've done everything to not be a 'stepping stone' for her, which is what you basically are in all other cases. 
Depends on what you consider outplaying Vivienne My Lavellan gave her the proper heart, accepted the ring, very politely listened to her opinions on whether Cassandra or Leliana would be a good Divine...
...and refused to take the conversation bait and supported Cassandra for the Sunburst throne.
Thanks for the good press, Viv. 
Honestly, I like the fact that you can't really outplay Vivienne or get the better of her in verbal exchanges. She's supposed to be better at it than you, she's grown up around and playing the game. Either you're a merc, an outcast of society or a circle mage from outside of Orlais. Even as a noble you don't partake in the game. IRL there are people who will always be able to outwit you, get the last word in, or run rings around you verbally, I think games should be no different.
I hate being the person that's always right about everything, and I don't think a character being better than you (or right about something) is necessarily a good reason to dislike a character.
Honestly, I like the fact that you can't really outplay Vivienne or get the better of her in verbal exchanges. She's supposed to be better at it than you, she's grown up around and playing the game. Either you're a merc, an outcast of society or a circle mage from outside of Orlais. Even as a noble you don't partake in the game. IRL there are people who will always be able to outwit you, get the last word in, or run rings around you verbally, I think games should be no different.
I hate being the person that's always right about everything, and I don't think a character being better than you (or right about something) is necessarily a good reason to dislike a character.
Protags being the best at everything and manage to change people's minds and opinions is tiresome and boring. I'm glad DAI has some characters who stay true to themselves.
Love Vivienne! I wish she and my quizzy could have matching gowns for real (but she would probably hate that lol).
I think its naive to think Viv ever loved Bastien. I doubt she has ever loved anyone but herself. I think she knew the potion wouldnt have any effect, good or bad, but still did it so she would look like she tried and look good to Bastiens family. Your just there as her alibi that she tried, then cried when he died. The whole time she's going ca ching in her mind while looking at you and seeing a sucker. is it true though that she set up the guy at the ball? If it is I dont think Im gonna recruite her my next play through.
at first i really hate her, when i start playing DA:I.
but can understand people really do not like her character, likely reason they made her so in the first place.
but come to respect her she stands for something. if it floats your boat.
like her even more then Sera or Cole, she makes total no nonsense about many things.
and Cole total weird, uninteresting, boring o yea to much good shoer. o yea that stupid looking hat of him.
I agree with everything you said except for what you think about Cole. How can a living lie detector and truthseer be boring and uninteresting.
Whether Vivienne 'loved' Bastien or not is irrelevant, she'd play her cards as well as possible in either case. She's DAI's version of Atia of the Julii, she'll walk over any number of corpses to win, whether she's sentimental about the person she's shivving or not.
I find it unlikely she killed him, because Vivienne is nothing if not conservative, and her she's already walking on a knife's edge, politics wise. Mages in general are disgraced. She's a high-ranking loyal mage, but Morrigan seems to have wheedled her way to the superior position in court. She's a big part of the Inquisition, but she's certainly not running anything (who's at the war table? Morrigan, not her). Bastien is literally her only fallback plan. She figures in no part of his inheritance, and will probably lose all her spots in his holdings once his children take over.
Her admiration of the Inquisitor insinuating she's a poisoner comes off more as her standard "you're not as bad at The Game as I thought you were, my dear" putdown. She's simply acknowledging that killing him is a valid move, but that doesn't mean it's the one she chose. If anything, screwing her over with the normal heart makes her more powerless, and more dependent on you, than before. That's some Celene-level gameplay.
I think its naive to think Viv ever loved Bastien. I doubt she has ever loved anyone but herself. I think she knew the potion wouldnt have any effect, good or bad, but still did it so she would look like she tried and look good to Bastiens family. Your just there as her alibi that she tried, then cried when he died. The whole time she's going ca ching in her mind while looking at you and seeing a sucker. is it true though that she set up the guy at the ball? If it is I dont think Im gonna recruite her my next play through.
I think it's naive to take her at face value. She's much more complex than just what you see. That's the whole reason why she's so good at the Game. There's a whole theme in Orlais with the masks. Not only do people wear masks literally; they wear them figuratively. The Ice Queen that you see with Vivienne is the mask. The moment of weakness that you see when Bastien dies is part of her more vulnerable self that she keeps hidden with the mask. She lets the mask slip for just a moment and it's a fantastic character development moment. To take her just at face value is to be outplayed by Vivienne.
Guest_Roly Voly_*
This is the only sure-fire way I know of to be sure you beat Vivienne at the game. Skip to 1:00 mark. No worries, Vivienne lovers, I've only done this with this one character...so far.
Yeah I never quite like Vivienne after doing her side quest after she used you to get into power. I also didn't like how she treats Cole. He wants to help the hurting and she calls him a demon? She wants to use people to get what she wants and she calls herself a saint?
Being a mage myself I support mage freedom. It seems like Liliana does a better job at being Divine.
Everyone disappears in the dark....
I dunno, I think she really does love Bastien, it's just that his death was inevitable, potion or no. For that moment when he dies she does genuinely seem upset, she just quickly buries it again, as she does. It's fairly in character for Viv to turn the whole thing to her advantage regardless.
Yes, she does love him and yes, she did turn his death to an advantage. That just how she is. She is a person who would try to turn a failure or a tragic event into an advantage. She basically a workaholic.
support lelianna or cassandra first then do vivians quest she wont be divine and wont gain power
I think it's naive to take her at face value. She's much more complex than just what you see. That's the whole reason why she's so good at the Game. There's a whole theme in Orlais with the masks. Not only do people wear masks literally; they wear them figuratively. The Ice Queen that you see with Vivienne is the mask. The moment of weakness that you see when Bastien dies is part of her more vulnerable self that she keeps hidden with the mask. She lets the mask slip for just a moment and it's a fantastic character development moment. To take her just at face value is to be outplayed by Vivienne.
I took her at face value and I think I still outplayed her. Depends on what "outplayed" means? Not making her Divine? She and my quizzy were friendly since we wanted similar things. Towards the end, Viv suggested Cassandra as Divine and I agreed with her. I then got Cass to be Divine at the end. So... if being Divine was Viv's end-game, then I unwittingly thwarted it. I think. 
I took her at face value and I think I still outplayed her. Depends on what "outplayed" means? Not making her Divine? She and my quizzy were friendly since we wanted similar things. Towards the end, Viv suggested Cassandra as Divine and I agreed with her. I then got Cass to be Divine at the end. So... if being Divine was Viv's end-game, then I unwittingly thwarted it. I think.
More of the case she just trying to find what ever power she can get. It's more gabbing at opportunity then end game.
Okay i've read all the posts, been busying with multiplayer hence the delay. I decided to Sabotage her quest, my cannon Keep thingy will be Lelianna. Afterall i tend to play non humans so she seems to be the best, the fact that Vivienne loses the Circle is a Bonus. However i'm sure she will bounce back somehow since she is still Court Enchanter to Celene, and will find a way to make herself useful to Gaspard if he is Emperor.
Honestly, I like the fact that you can't really outplay Vivienne or get the better of her in verbal exchanges. She's supposed to be better at it than you, she's grown up around and playing the game. Either you're a merc, an outcast of society or a circle mage from outside of Orlais. Even as a noble you don't partake in the game. IRL there are people who will always be able to outwit you, get the last word in, or run rings around you verbally, I think games should be no different.
I hate being the person that's always right about everything, and I don't think a character being better than you (or right about something) is necessarily a good reason to dislike a character.
Well considering that she is older than the inquisitor, by alot of years, i don't expect my inquisitor to be better than her at everything. I never said i disliked her, i just don't like being used. First playthrough, i didn't get the family scene after helping her with the heart, it's only my second playthrough that i got it and i wasn't impressed. Before it was, pretentious, powerful, privileged mage that didn't like change unless it was for her. If you agreed with her, she was happy, if you didn't the claws came out and you verbally paid for it. Fair Enough. Now If anything I see her as a rival to beat where it counts. And there is only three ways to do it: don't recruit her, sabotage her quest, and/or put Leliana as the Divine.
She does strike me a character that no matter what happens, she will still trive somehow. Even if lelianna is divine and her personal quest was sabotaged, she'll is still Court Enchanter i think or is able to get that post back. So if anything i just threw a spanner in the works temporarily.
To contrast Vivienne, an example of a character that annoyed me the most was Sera only because of what happens after The Temple of Mythal. She refuses to concede that some if it might of been true. I expected her to slightly change her opinion about elves at that point, instead of being her snarky FU the elves. She never changed. If anything she uses her Andrastrian confirmation bias that since the Inquisitor has to be the herald of andraste, therefore all elven gods are demons after the Temple. Loved her humour, the way that the char spoke, and the little people power. Just that she never changes her views on Elves at all which annoyed me. After the temple she stuck me as someone that probably wishes she wasn't an elf. She would of been better character as a human or surface dwarf. I found Varric is a better Andrastian than Sera, as least he doesn't go an like an ass when you take him to dwavern ruins, compared to sera in elven ruins. But i digress.
Point is Vivienne is a character that i respect as a rival. Sera while i like some aspects of her, i don't respect her as a character. She should never have been an elven character.
More of the case she just trying to find what ever power she can get. It's more gabbing at opportunity then end game.
Well she is lustful for power. If i could describe her with one word, it's power. So yeah it's expected
I took her at face value and I think I still outplayed her. Depends on what "outplayed" means? Not making her Divine? She and my quizzy were friendly since we wanted similar things. Towards the end, Viv suggested Cassandra as Divine and I agreed with her. I then got Cass to be Divine at the end. So... if being Divine was Viv's end-game, then I unwittingly thwarted it. I think.
Vivienne endgame probably is the status Quo, with her being First Enchanter and Imperial Court Mage at the minimum. For someone that wants to rise under the status Quo, Cassandra would still keep the Circles to she can become the new Grand Enchanter. Alternative if she can become Divine, even more the better.
Modifié par Pincey, 13 janvier 2015 - 06:41 .
Protags being the best at everything and manage to change people's minds and opinions is tiresome and boring. I'm glad DAI has some characters who stay true to themselves.
I don't mind losing to Vivi at the game.
I do mind being forced to being a petulant child when she rearranges the furniture.
Where's my smirk and "Do enjoy yourself dear. It's the most influence you'll have on this Inquisition anyway." option? Why am I forced into being a slack jawed moron?
This is the only sure-fire way I know of to be sure you beat Vivienne at the game. Skip to 1:00 mark. No worries, Vivienne lovers, I've only done this with this one character...so far.
Yeah this is what I do on characters that'd disagree with her. If I wasn't forced into being a fool it'd be otherwise but oh well.
I don't mind losing to Vivi at the game.
I do mind being forced to being a petulant child when she rearranges the furniture.
Where's my smirk and "Do enjoy yourself dear. It's the most influence you'll have on this Inquisition anyway." option? Why am I forced into being a slack jawed moron?
Yeah this is what I do on characters that'd disagree with her. If I wasn't forced into being a fool it'd be otherwise but oh well.
This is what bugs me the most about Viv. She is written to never lose a verbal confrontation no matter how weak her position is. She out plays Sera every time, verbaly slaps Blackwall around with no reprecusions, has Iron Bull wrapped around her finger...she is written to be soooo much smarter and collected than everyone else and I hate it. I dont have to take her down but just once I want one of my companions to verbaly tear her up. She is a conversational Mary Sue. And I know some of you are going to say, "Well, thats because she's great at playing the game..." and to that I say bull. My other companions have been playing their own games, just once let Sera win, let Blackwall verbally smack her upside the head.
You know, we're told she's great at playing my game but I doubt anyone who was great at playing the game wouldn't go around making so many enemies out of people she has to rely on. Get smarmy with me lady and I'll send you off as an advisor with the Avaar. Oh but wait, your written so perfect you'd probably windd up ruling Tevinter in a week. Ugh, just...give me an operation on the war table where I can have Lelianna do poison her where she loses her voice, or sounds like Micky Mouse.
Vivienne is a b****. She has to be to survive the Game. Of course she tries get some profit of Bastiens death, but that doesn´t mean she didn´t love him.
Complicated, yes. Unexplainable, no.
Well said.
Vivienne appears to have genuinely loved Duke Bastien, and was trying to extend his life probably well beyond the point that he could be saved. With the Wyvern heart quest I think she was in denial, and that is why it fails. There was never any hope of saving him.
Of course being Vivienne she isn't going to let genuine grief crack that tough exterior, or prevent her from gaining as much political capital from his death as she can. We never get to know Duke Bastien, but considering his relationship with Vivienne lasted years, it is likely he would have approved. They were both players of the game and her ambition and skills at playing it were probably part of the attraction for him.
Vivienne doesn't always win her little bits of banter. Like in this instance, she seems pretty blatantly condescending toward Solas for being an apostate, and he seems to take it rather well XD
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