113 réponses à ce sujet

[Undead Han]

Vivienne winning a battle of wits with Sera shouldn't have come as a surprise. Sera was entering that fight unarmed.

[Sailfindragon]

I just told her I didn't need her help. (During recruitment) Her reaction was worth it.

[KaiserShep]

Verbal smackdowns are great, but ultimately pointless. The more people talk, the more full of sh*t they tend to sound anyway. In the end, the Inquisitor can simply make her irrelevant without uttering a word.

[Deebo305]

Gotta say I've never seen the scene your describing OP with the Council of Heralds member and Chantry personnel. Does this happen only with low approval and giving her a fake heart?

[Undead Han]

Gotta say I've never seen the scene your describing OP with the Council of Heralds member and Chantry personnel. Does this happen only with low approval and giving her a fake heart?

 

No, I got it with high approval & the real one as well.

 

That scene occurs back at Skyhold. I can't remember now though whether it appeared as a quest marker or just kicked off after initiating normal conversation with Vivienne.

[Kulyok]

Be super nice to her, complete her quest, agree with her, tell her mages should be in the Chantry, help her get the tomes, smile and nod, be polite to her Chantry guests...

 

... and just in case, complete Leliana's quest, support mages and elves, and tell everyone(when Cassandra is not within earshot) that mages should be free.

Or just plain out support Cassandra at the War Table.

 

And Vivienne won't get a single chance to be Divine. Heck, if you support Gaspard or Briala, she probably won't even have the royal court to return to.

[KaiserShep]

Be super nice to her, complete her quest, agree with her, tell her mages should be in the Chantry, help her get the tomes, smile and nod, be polite to her Chantry guests...

 

... and just in case, complete Leliana's quest, support mages and elves, and tell everyone(when Cassandra is not within earshot) that mages should be free.

Or just plain out support Cassandra at the War Table.

 

And Vivienne won't get a single chance to be Divine. Heck, if you support Gaspard or Briala, she probably won't even have the royal court to return to.

 

With great power, comes the best last word.

[TevinterSupremacist]

There's a reason, in my opinion, you can't outplay viv or just  talk down to her or punch her like solas.

Companions have a more or less core characteristic. Solas is mysterious, cass is devout, cole is the non-human trying to fit, sera is the lolsorandumb **a*, etc...

In order for the companions to feel like what they're supposed to be, their core can't be shattered. It might be altered a little, or have other aspects of themselves change/evolve, but the core stays more or less. For other companions, like solas their core can't be taken away no matter what you do. You might hate him, annoy him, punch him, but you can't deny there's an air of mysteriousness around what he does and there'll always be. Even humanising cole doesn't shatter his "spirit trying to fit" deal.

But viv's core, is superiority. And that, unlike the former ones is dependent not only on her, but on what the world and the quizzy does to her. If you'd been able to outwit her, or at least give her a punch when she gets too obnoxious, there'd be a massive break in her most defining characteristic. Imagine a viv  on the floor after being punched by an angry quizzy, just glaring up at you in rage. Not like viv at all.

 

And to be honest, I *u***** hate that. Writing a character with her main deal being dependent on the outside is fine, but it's damn limiting to rp when you don't let us  go either way and just always end up ''losing'' when trying to take her down. It's frustrating and a bit lazy, imo.

[Pincey]

There's a reason, in my opinion, you can't outplay viv or just  talk down to her or punch her like solas.

Companions have a more or less core characteristic. Solas is mysterious, cass is devout, cole is the non-human trying to fit, sera is the lolsorandumb **a*, etc...

In order for the companions to feel like what they're supposed to be, their core can't be shattered. It might be altered a little, or have other aspects of themselves change/evolve, but the core stays more or less. For other companions, like solas their core can't be taken away no matter what you do. You might hate him, annoy him, punch him, but you can't deny there's an air of mysteriousness around what he does and there'll always be. Even humanising cole doesn't shatter his "spirit trying to fit" deal.

But viv's core, is superiority. And that, unlike the former ones is dependent not only on her, but on what the world and the quizzy does to her. If you'd been able to outwit her, or at least give her a punch when she gets too obnoxious, there'd be a massive break in her most defining characteristic. Imagine a viv  on the floor after being punched by an angry quizzy, just glaring up at you in rage. Not like viv at all.

 

And to be honest, I *u***** hate that. Writing a character with her main deal being dependent on the outside is fine, but it's damn limiting to rp when you don't let us  go either way and just always end up ''losing'' when trying to take her down. It's frustrating and a bit lazy, imo.

 

What you said is probably right. It makes alot of sense.

 

Gotta say I've never seen the scene your describing OP with the Council of Heralds member and Chantry personnel. Does this happen only with low approval and giving her a fake heart?

 

I've only had the family scene visiting skyhold happen after i gave her the real snow wyvren heart and it seems it's a continuation of her funeral arrangements at the end of the Duke Bastien Death scene. I'm not sure if there is a scene that happens after you give her the fake heart. I would be interesting if there was since she does threaten you but i'm not sure. If there is one, i'll update, but since i haven't completed my Give her fake heart PT yet, i'm not sure.

[Cantina]

Vivienne is a vile woman who only craves power and cares for herself.

 

All her talk about how she is so loyal to people of Thedas is simply a smoke screen. She simply does not want a Mage or any Mage for that matter becoming more successful then she is. Hence taking away her thunder.  Further credence to this is when Vivienne speaks about certain things, yet it can easily be argued that is not the case and does not makes whatever she has to say completely true. Basically whatever Vivienne says, is right and whatever you say is wrong.  Oh sure, she may agree with you on certain areas but its more of, ‘OH! Why did I not think of that. Thank you for giving me something I can use to my advantage- if need be.”

 

Her Codex says: she is most disciplined mage in Orlais. Please. No mage who is disciplined would use magic on a guest. You don’t see a man with a sword running up to a rude guest, pointing the blade at his throat then asking YOU, “Should he be killed for his behavior?”

 

As for Bastion, did Vivienne love him? Probably some where deep within her vile heart. But the thing is I doubt this woman would even know what love is if it came up and smacked her in the face. Love is not Vivienne priority, power is her priority.

 

The only reason she gave Bastion that youth potion was to make him young again so she can leech off him. Since it did not work, his assets are going to be divvied and Viviene will no doubt be left with less then what she had when he was alive.

 

Beyond that for someone who claims to have loved this man, she certainly does not show it. After he died, Vivienne comes off as "whatever." IF Vivienne truly loved Bastion for who he is, then she should have been damn near inconsolable.

 

So why did she join the Inquisition?

 

The current state of the world has put Vivienne in a position to where she can lose everything she has schemed to get. She cannot approach the Empress because the country is in chaos. She cannot approach The Chantry because that is in chaos too. Bastion is dying and thus that string is unraveling quickly. Vivienne choose to join and use The Inquisition as a means to gain more power (which she admits later).  I was utterly pissed off about this. I knew what she was doing it, but for Vivienne to actually admit her selfish scheme and be completely proud of herself-yes that pissed me off greatly. I want to punch the b!tch and tell her, to get the f out.

 

The other companions join for their own reasons, sure, but at the heart of it they truly do care about helping to end the chaos across Thedas. Viviene could care less about aiding to help end the chaos. Oh sure, she puts on a grand show of acting like she cares, but she really does not. The only time it bothers her is when it interrupts her scheming, hence joining The Inquisition.

 

I for one have played the previous DA games. When it comes to companions, Vivienne is by far these most hatred companion a crossed all the DA games. Vivienne is the type of person I would avoid at all costs in real life and I have little interest in throwing myself on the sword even if its just a video game.

 

Even when Vivienne was IN The Inquisition in past games, I NEVER used her. To me, she seems more the type of person who should be back in Orlais throwing parties, stabbing people in the back (literally) not tossing fireballs at bandits and dragons.

 

What it comes down to is this: Vivienne screams Tevinter Mage. Hell I thought of her as one more so then Dorian. For a person who believes in the views on mages, she certainly is hypocritical about them considering she lusts for power, yet Andraste’s famous line is something that decrees a mage should not do.

 

As for the Wyvern heart, I gave Vivienne the right one. I refuse to stoop to her level. I am a better person then Vivienne as is my character.

 

Don’t get me wrong the writers did well with her character well enough to where Vivienne has become the most hated character in any video game I have played. And THAT is saying something.

 

 

 

[KaiserShep]

Don't be so dramatic, darling. It's ever so tiresome on the skin.

[Bob Walker]

 

The other companions join for their own reasons, sure, but at the heart of it they truly do care about helping to end the chaos across Thedas. Viviene could care less about aiding to help end the chaos. Oh sure, she puts on a grand show of acting like she cares, but she really does not. The only time it bothers her is when it interrupts her scheming, hence joining The Inquisition.

 

 

 

Not that I particularly dislike Vivienne, but I agree with what you said. Vivienne's trailer gave the impression that she was worried about the breach, however in the game she seems to not care that much, being more concerned about her own agenda. 

[synnerman]

I supported Viv for Divine and Leliana still won, so that's not an aspect of The Game, especially since Vivianne doesn't even offer herself as a candidate. The Inquisitor has to suggest it for it to even be a thing, much less a goal.

Either way, I think Vivienne is one of the best representative of placage outside of a Southern historical romance. She does not crumple, she does not rust. Only the Inquisitor sees brief weakness at Bastien's death and after that, it is wiped away. There's no point in protracted caterwauling. The world continues apace and the Game never ends.

[Cette]

Step 1:  Have her murder a helpless if dickish man in cold blood in front of an entire ballroom.

 

Step 2:  Shoot here ass down when she tries to join as asking her to kill that guy was a test of character.  Alternately interrupting a duel over honor and solving it her self is really stepping on your inquisitors dick in a public manner and therefore not gonna fly.  Either way turn her down.
 

Step 3:  Make Lelianna divine therefore destroying the structure she was clinging onto for power while not having allowed her to attach herself to the inquisition to try and leverage that.  And that's if you didn't elect Darth Lelianna.  If you did then well we know who some of that blood running down the hall belonged to.

Bonus points for putting Gaspard on the throne and completely disrupting the standing court that she relies on.
 

[In Exile]

I've never seen this part of the quest. Is the end somehow bugged?

[Ieldra]

Vivienne doesn't always win her little bits of banter. Like in this instance, she seems pretty blatantly condescending toward Solas for being an apostate, and he seems to take it rather well XD

 

I love that exchange. I just wish I had a line like Solas' in one of my conversations with her when she comes across all condescending (which is almost all the time). Oh, and the utter irony of her claiming more experience than Solas... it's hilariously blind even if you don't know who he really is.

[KaiserShep]

Step 1:  Have her murder a helpless if dickish man in cold blood in front of an entire ballroom.
 
Step 2:  Shoot here ass down when she tries to join as asking her to kill that guy was a test of character.  Alternately interrupting a duel over honor and solving it her self is really stepping on your inquisitors dick in a public manner and therefore not gonna fly.  Either way turn her down.
 
Step 3:  Make Lelianna divine therefore destroying the structure she was clinging onto for power while not having allowed her to attach herself to the inquisition to try and leverage that.  And that's if you didn't elect Darth Lelianna.  If you did then well we know who some of that blood running down the hall belonged to.
Bonus points for putting Gaspard on the throne and completely disrupting the standing court that she relies on.

This calls for a drunk Vivienne cameo in DA4.

[KaiserShep]

I love that exchange. I just wish I had a line like Solas' in one of my conversations with her when she comes across all condescending (which is almost all the time). Oh, and the utter irony of her claiming more experience than Solas... it's hilariously blind even if you don't know who he really is.

It reminds me of the exchange they'll have when deciding whether or not Cole stays at Skyhold. She basically insists that he's a threat and Solas pulls his apostate card and she gives him a look like "Ooh b*tch you didn't just". I can imagine Solas looking back like "Just did".

[Ieldra]

Step 1:  Have her murder a helpless if dickish man in cold blood in front of an entire ballroom.

 

Step 2:  Shoot here ass down when she tries to join as asking her to kill that guy was a test of character.  Alternately interrupting a duel over honor and solving it her self is really stepping on your inquisitors dick in a public manner and therefore not gonna fly.  Either way turn her down.
 

Step 3:  Make Lelianna divine therefore destroying the structure she was clinging onto for power while not having allowed her to attach herself to the inquisition to try and leverage that.  And that's if you didn't elect Darth Lelianna.  If you did then well we know who some of that blood running down the hall belonged to.

Bonus points for putting Gaspard on the throne and completely disrupting the standing court that she relies on.

I might actually do some of that in my replay of my main Inquisitor. I usually don't leave anyone unrecruited, but of Vivienne's banter I won't miss about 90%. It would be different if I had some good lines in my conversations with her for my mage who I envision as being rather good at The Game. Not on Vivienne's level perhaps, but a few lines with impact wouldn't have hurt, would they?

[NM_Che56]

That said, you could play the Game by accepting her quest, doing it, allying with the rebel mages, then make Leliana Divine (bleh...) and presto.
 

 

That's what I did

[Shahadem]

Honestly, I like the fact that you can't really outplay Vivienne or get the better of her in verbal exchanges. She's supposed to be better at it than you, she's grown up around and playing the game. Either you're a merc, an outcast of society or a circle mage from outside of Orlais. Even as a noble you don't partake in the game. IRL there are people who will always be able to outwit you, get the last word in, or run rings around you verbally, I think games should be no different.

 

I hate being the person that's always right about everything, and I don't think a character being better than you (or right about something) is necessarily a good reason to dislike a character.

 

How is she better at it? Just become someone doesn't play "the game" doesn't mean they aren't a master orator or extremely quick witted. Playing the game is neither necessary nor sufficient proof that someone is a good orator or quick witted.

 

DA2's sarcastic Hawke could run circles around Viv.

 

" IRL there are people who will always be able to outwit you, get the last word in, or run rings around you verbally, I think games should be no different." This statement isn't true either. No wonder why you can't comprehend how easy it would be to refute all of Viv's statements.

[Shahadem]

That is tiresome, but protagonists are never the best at everything, and are rarely the best at anything except for magic persuasion powers. There is no real ability to be a subject-matter expert in much of anything, and often protagonist characters are railroaded into idiotic dialogue. (This is most egregious with Shepard in the ME games, but all the Dragon Age protagonists suffer from the same issue at some points.)

So, like you, I'm okay with not being able to "outplay" Vivienne in a meaningful way. That's who she is, and only horrible mind-rape powers do anything to upset her equilibrium. But unlike you, I don't think that this is somehow unusual for BioWare writing.

 

So you aren't ok with the player character being the best at something all the time but you are ok with a nonplayer character being the best at something all the time? Do you see the problem there?

 

Also Viv isn't the best, and she her statements and beliefs are easily refuteable, but for some reason we never get to make any counterarguments.

[Gaz83]

I outplayed her.

 

How? By recruiting her to the cause - she's handy against dragons - but not speaking to her once I got to Skyhold.

 

She's been stood outside in the garden for forty hours. We won't even give her a stool. 

[KaiserShep]

I outplayed her.

 

How? By recruiting her to the cause - she's handy against dragons - but not speaking to her once I got to Skyhold.

 

She's been stood outside in the garden for forty hours. We won't even give her a stool. 

 

Wait, she doesn't move into that loft above the court if you don't talk to her?

[Gaz83]

Wait, she doesn't move into that loft above the court if you don't talk to her?

 

Nope. She just stands there. Waiting. I cannot remember if she moves to the loft once you've beaten Cory, but until that point - by which time an alternative Divine would have been choosen anyway - she stays in the garden.  Just don't talk to her and she'll wait outside. Cold and alone.