32 réponses à ce sujet

[madrar]

Before I start, a quick note that everything that follows uses “Sun” and “Earth” as convenient Dalish references for the two primordial, draconic beings whose collaboration seems to have created the DA:I universe.  

 

Spoiler

(…or at least this part of it.  The “seraphim” = “fiery serpents” = “dragons” connection raises a strong possibility that there is an even more primordial Maker who crafted them in turn.  Theoretical existence aside, the Sun and Earth seem to be the creators of Thedas as we know it.)

 

Do they still exist?

 

Yes.  The available evidence suggests that the being generally referred to as Mythal was the primordial Earth entity.  The Sun is known by no other name by the mortals of Thedas, since it was imprisoned before mortal recorded history in the Void: a localized pocket of space-time accessible by eluvian, most likely located in the Dark City.  His blood has been fundamentally twisted by Elgar’nan since his imprisonment, sundering the original Song into what we know as Blight.  

 

ANYWAY.  ON TO THE THEORY.

 

Magic in the DA universe has three distinct sources:  the fade, blood, and blight.  These are Corpyheus' “three wine glasses”, if you remember Solas’ banter with Vivienne.  Two are “natural” in that they are connected to the original state of Creation, the last is “poisoned” and connected to the Sundered Song.  They’re actually interrelated in the actual practice of magic, as we’ll see shortly.    

 

Without rehashing too much primordial history, the fade-shadows of the original elves (created by the splitting of their being when the veil was raised) are innate conduits to the Fade, sustaining their physical bodies and allowing ancient elves to pull a measure of its fundamental indeterminate “stuff” into the physical world.  A common in-game metaphor conceives of the fade as water, while the will of the mage shapes the glass.  The size of the glass is determined by how much fade you’re able to draw.  This is spirit, the contribution of the Earth to mortal magic.

 

The other half of magic is the will that defines the glass, the part that forces the water to take a desired shape.  This will is the individual Song that lives in all mortal blood.  In a way, blood is a bit like carrying around your own tiny Maker.  It’s the physical side of magic, the contribution of the Sun to mortal existence.  Its power to force a given state on indeterminate fadestuff or to change existing reality is related both to the amount and quality that sings the same Song.  (In other words, how “loud” the Song is.)  

 

Aside:  this is true of the larger world as well.  When spirits are forced into the physical world, they are assaulted by the Song that is reality, most driven mad by its volume and twisted to demons.  It’s also worth noting that while blood may be the physical embodiment of will, there’s evidence that the Song is present in non-physical entities as well- it’s just much, much softer.  As we see with Cole, spirits can develop a limited sense of self that can decide, that can shape- but it’s incredibly fragile and weak compared to mortals and must be strengthened considerably to sustain a true, individual ‘self’ on this side of the veil.   

 

So how does lyrium fit in?  Judging from its effect and use by the Templar,  lyrium acts like a solid, physical form of Song – greatly increasing the effect of the user’s will, allowing him to hold reality in place.  Conversely, it seems to amplify both aspects of magic when wielded by mages: how much fade can be drawn as well as how great a change the mage is able to effect with it.  If this observational assumption is accurate, this implies heavily that the blood of the Sun and of the Earth are fundamentally the same material.  Or at least they were once, before the Sun’s blood was twisted to blight and the Song sundered. 

 

In summary, magic in Thedas is the interplay of possibility and will, represented respectively as the Fade and the Song.  (Or to get Bioware-meta, Options and Choice.)  The interaction of these two halves, one drawn from each Creator of the mortal world, is the essence of how magic works in the DA universe and what gives mages the ability to shape the world around them. 

 

I hope that makes sense.  I feel a bit like Dagna here, awkwardly trying to wrap words around something my brain is pretty sure it understands but is totally stumbling trying to get it out right.

 

Magic and the Eternal Triad

 

This concept of magic is deeply woven into the fabric of the DA universe.  This gets a little bumpy, but stay with me, here.  Cyclical rebellion to restore the balance of Order and Chaos is the heartbeat of Thedas, and in every successful revolution we find the same triad at its center: the Wife, the Husband, and the Lover.

 

These three roles are sometimes metaphorical, sometimes literal, but always, always present.   The triad pops up elsewhere as well, but their relation to the idea of overthrowing established Order is deeply connected, and the Earth – Mythal – forms the center, the critical pivot point, in each and every instance.   

 

She must, because this change is a process that reflects the very nature of magic itself.

 

As the Earth, she represents the Fade- the realm of Possibility and Option.  The Husband and the Lover are competing Wills, or Songs, thus when she abandons one and joins with the other, change is enacted on the world.   

 

I know I’m kind of channeling Dagna again, but hold on to that thought.  It’s exactly like casting a spell, but with lives.  Like the universe itself casting a spell.  A different kind of magic, yet still fundamentally the same and explosively effective.  There is a commensurate cost, however, and that price is always the sacrifice of the Wife. 

 

The three critical revolutions of Thedas’ history are as follows:

 

The First Revolution (The Loss of ‘Eden’)

 

Wife: the Earth (Mythal)

Husband: the Sun

Lover: Elgar’nan

 

The Second Revolution (the Fall of Arlathan)

 

Wife: Mythal (the Earth) 

Husband: Elgar’nan

Lover: Falon’Din-Dirthamen (Solas)

 

The Third Revloution (the Andrastean Rebellion)

 

Wife: Andraste (Mythal)

Husband: Maferath (Likely just a human mage, but one whose dreams and actions were twisted by Elgar’nan)

Lover: Shartan (Solas)

 

The events of DA:I may be the first stirrings of a Fourth Revolution.  It’s a tempting thought, but I’m not sure how I feel about that yet.  The blight threatens the return of tyrannical Order in terms of the sundered Song, but it’s still just a threat, not the actual practice yet- there’s no existing tyrannical rule to be directly challenged.  (The mage Circle business barely registers as a social blip compared to the three above.)

 

That said, it seems very likely that Solas is making preparations for another (final?) showdown with Order in the form of Elgar’nan, no matter what his specific intentions are.  

 

Knowing what we do about the state of the world, the safest bet would be to assume his immediate goal is gaining access to the Void.  Unfortunately, it’s almost certain that the only eluvian that would provide that access is in the Dark City, meaning he’ll have to get there first.  

 

If the ‘key’ to open that particular path isn’t physical, then it’s likely that he knows it.  After all, Falon’Din-Dirthamen stripped the knowledge of how to access the Void from Andruil’s mind to secure his release and restoration to the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.  This is not entirely certain, however, since we can’t say for sure how Dirthamen’s secret-taking powers actually work: whether he takes the secret into himself or simply washes it away as Cole does pain.  My personal hunch is that the knowledge is absorbed, and that he now knows what Andruil knew: both the path to the Void, and exactly where the Sun is imprisoned inside it.

 

I believe his most likely goal is the release of the Forgotten Ones.  They are literally his People, much as the Chargers are Iron Bull’s. Old allies, former members of the Pantheon who joined with him during the failed rebellion that preceded his successful second attempt, the Fall of Arlathan.  When that rebellion failed, the Forgotten Ones were likely tried for treason just as he was, imprisoned as he was, but were never released.  Their names and existence were almost entirely wiped from record by Elgar’nan and his alliance of Order- the faintest shadow left as a pointed warning to others of what the faction could and would do to any who opposed it.  

 

As for the less-likely alternatives: 

 

It’s possible he wants to access the Void to attempt to stop the threat of the blight at its source, but that’s so unlikely it’s hard to wrap my mind around the how and why.  First, as much as I love Solas, that particular task seems far beyond his power.  He and Mythal have been aware of the blight’s true source and nature since the time of ancient Arlathan, well before the first darkspawn was ever spotted on the surface of Thedas, and he’s in a much weaker position to do anything about it now than he has been in the past.  (Aside from having an advantage over Elgar’nan in being fully conscious and out in the world, but even that’s not much, since he’d need to wake him to have any hope of forcing him to undo what was done to the Song… assuming Elgar'nan still lives, which is highly debatable, and that reversal is possible in the first place.) 

 

Bringing down the veil is another potential objective that I’m not convinced lies within his power.  Also,  given what I think I know now about his overarching goals and interests within the DA universe, that seems like the absolute last thing he’d choose to do.   Returning to “Eden” would be the ultimate admission of defeat, and I’m not sure he’s that broken.  Not yet.   The fire may be guttering, but it’s still there.  I think he’ll fight.  

 

I have to believe he will.    

 

 

^{"Alas, so long as the music plays. We dance." - Flemyth}

[Gill Kaiser]

This is some Elder Scrolls level lorecrafting.

 

I like a lot of what you've written, but I'm confused about where you're getting some of the concepts involved. When was it established that the original forces of the world were draconic? And are we now just taking it as a given that Fen'Harel was an amalgamation of Falon'Din and Dirthamen?

[madrar]

This is some Elder Scrolls level lorecrafting.

 

I like a lot of what you've written, but I'm confused about where you're getting some of the concepts involved. When was it established that the original forces of the world were draconic? And are we now just taking it as a given that Fen'Harel was an amalgamation of Falon'Din and Dirthamen?

 

The Fen'Harel = Falon'Din/Dirthamen connection is explained in full here.  

 

The draconic nature of the Sun/Earth comes from two sources that are admittedly lightweight, but still somewhat convincing (at least, in the absence of evidence to the contrary) when added to background references like the ToM codex that seems to identify dragon-form (not a direct reference to the Sun/Earth, but later uthenera-OGS-controlled beasts used to emulate them) as restricted for use by the Pantheon.

 

The first is Elgar'nan's blighted focus, the Red Lyrium Idol.  Note how it seems to be carved to depict his creation myth:

 

 

Terrible screenshot, but you should be able to distinguish the main figures: the top figure ringed in stone is the Earth (Mythal), while the bottom is the Sun.  At the lower right, the torso of Elgar'nan emerges where the Sun and Earth figures meet.  The bottom of the focus is broken and fragmented, but still reasonably easy to identify as a draconic element.

 

 

The second is Flemyth herself, assuming you're already on board with her identity as the primordial Earth entity: the ability to shift into dragon form at will.

 

Like I said- incredibly tenuous, but plausible enough to fill a necessary gap in the absence of counter-evidence or competing theory.

[Angarma]

When was it established that the original forces of the world were draconic?

 
This might also be of note:

(to Alistair) "Your heart beats with the old blood, as well. Where do you think it comes from? It sings of a time when dragons

ruled the skies. A time before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten. Can you hear it?" -Yavana, The Last Grove.
 
Hm, I wonder whether the Great Dragons were synonymous with the physical forms of the Old Gods..
 
"All they needed was the blood of the Great Dragons." "With it, I have tapped the power of gods." -Aurelian Titus
“In destroying what it does not understand, mankind would destroy itself.” "The blood of dragons is the blood of the world." -Yavana
 
Is it not implied by Solas, at some point, that ending the Old Gods would have dire ramifications?

[madrar]

 
This might also be of note:

(to Alistair) "Your heart beats with the old blood, as well. Where do you think it comes from? It sings of a time when dragons

ruled the skies. A time before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten. Can you hear it?" -Yavana, The Last Grove.
 
Hm, I wonder whether the Great Dragons were synonymous with the physical forms of the Old Gods..
 
"All they needed was the blood of the Great Dragons." "With it, I have tapped the power of gods." -Aurelian Titus
“In destroying what it does not understand, mankind would destroy itself.” "The blood of dragons is the blood of the world." -Yavana
 
Is it not implied by Solas, at some point, that ending the Old Gods would have dire ramifications?

 

Careful- I think there's a bit of confusion there in your references.  The Old Gods of Tevinter are the Elvish Pantheon.  The Sun and Earth are distinct, draconic pre-Pantheon entities, the creators of the first race to inhabit "Eden"- or whatever you'd like the call the world before the veil was raised.  

 

I don't want to get too deep into how the I believe the races were made, because that's a whole separate, massive theory that has to touch on post-veil fade-shadows, racial inheritance and the Quickening, but for now- yes, the blood of the Sun is his contribution to the physical component of mortal existence and magic, while the blood of the Earth is her contribution to the spirit/veil side.  The blood of the Dragons is indeed the blood of the world.  

 

As for your second question, killing off the Old Gods would have dire ramifications, though it's a bit more subtle than his tone implies.  The Old Gods still locked beneath the earth are important for two reasons: first, the Song in their blood serves as a critical distraction that slows the advance of Darkspawn toward their larger and more dangerous goal: reaching the fallen City of Arlathan at the center of the world.  Second, given that they're Pantheon, they represent a potentially significant loss of knowledge if Warden-killed, in that their soul would be pulled through the veil and cleansed.  Their essence would be preserved and restored to mortal form thankfully, since Solas is awake, but would be "wiped clean" of original memory and self that might have otherwise been preserved.  A significant loss, given how little remains.  

[Angarma]

-snip-

 

Before you get ahead of yourself, it should be said that after "Hm," In that quote; it was just a self thought blurb, not in reference to your ideas.

[Gogo]

I think I love you, madrar! That said, while I may not totally agree or even comprehend it all, your theories are incredibly interesting. Inquisition's ending made me pretty thirsty for all the potential "what ifs."

[Samahl na Revas]

I agree with the Draconic thing, but I disagree on some other points and still haven't made up my mind about the whole Solas : Dirthamen/Falon' din. I'm like this about the whole revolution thing, I get it but have doubts that Mythal is Earth. Idk, from my perspective there isn't enough evidence to suggest that Mythal is anything more than we are given. Afterall she walks out of the tears of the Earth. There are just a few contradictions I see at least.

[Ashagar]

I'd have to wonder about Andraste and her instance on the maker if she was Mytral though given that the Being known as the maker was a ancient human deity the Tevinter and proto-tevinter tribes apparently worshiped before they started even worshiping the old gods and even then still held the maker to be the creator of the world.

 

 

Basically as I understand stand it Andraste's effect was to make the Tevinter return to worshiping only the maker repudiating the old gods and caused humans elsewhere to turn to maker worship as well but became rather hostile to mages.

[madrar]

I'd have to wonder about Andraste and her instance on the maker if she was Mytral though given that the Being known as the maker was a ancient human deity the Tevinter and proto-tevinter tribes apparently worshiped before they started even worshiping the old gods and even then still held the maker to be the creator of the world.

 

 

Basically as I understand stand it Andraste's effect was to make the Tevinter return to worshiping only the maker repudiating the old gods and caused humans elsewhere to turn to maker worship as well but became rather hostile to mages.

 

Good point!   There are two very distinct Makers in the Chant of Light, and distinguishing one from the other is the key to identifying who is truly being referred to, and what their source was.   In reading the earliest text, you can get a very clear picture of what Solas and Mythal were initially attempting to do with the creation of the Chant and the Chantry.  Keep reading as later accretions are added to the Chant over time, and it's possible to discern a second, oppositional voice, indicating that their old Enemy was once again active in the minds of dreaming Men, using them to insert himself into the text to replace the intent of the original 'Maker', as represented by Mythal and her efforts.  

 

Let me back up a bit.  The Andrastean uprising marks Solas’ fourth known rebellion, his most recent attempt to reset the balance of Order and Chaos prior to the start of DA:I.  It was a remarkably successful one, all things considered: an enormous population was suddenly free from Tevinter rule.  Their next step was an attempt to avoid the disastrous social consequences of the elvish rebellion by introducing a social system that would counter the immediate threat of Chaos while also guarding against the future return of tyrannical Order.  

 

This solution was the formation of the Chantry, an apolitical organization that would not seek to govern society directly, but instead be a gentle external force, guiding its followers towards socially cooperative effort (safeguarding against Chaos) and the exaltation of free will and creation as sacred gifts of the Maker (safeguarding against Order).

 

The inclusion of these social safeguards and the promotion of balance and compassion are prominent characteristics in the oldest parts of the recorded Chant. Solas and Mythal's direct involvement is on open display, revealing their hopes for the new system as well as their desire to reshape the history of ages long past, rewriting the pre-veil world as they felt it Should Have Been:  a universe in which the power of Choice and Creation was granted freely and celebrated by the Maker, who asked no greater service in Her name than its exercise.

 

This was not, of course, quite the case- as we can intuit from the Dalish myth describing Elgar'nan's initial creation and triumph over his Father, the Sun.  

 

A far more likely timeline is the story of the First Rebellion, which begins with collaborative creation of the pre-veil world and the first Children, granted a measure of free will as part of their very existence.  (The essentially indeterminate nature of the Fade-half of their being, contribution of Mythal.)  Mythal's love for her Children, and theirs for her, lie outside the Obedience and Worship that the Sun believes is His due. Enraged and jealous, he seeks to either bring them under His control, or destroy them outright.   Mythal- "the Mother, protective and fierce", as Solas remembers her, cannot bear this, and turns from His side, joining Elgar'nan and Her Children in creating the Void, throwing him down and imprisoning Him there.  

 

The veil is raised, creating a new post-Eden world: the physical world we know as Thedas and its mirror the Fade.  It is a world of hardship and struggle compared to Eden, but it is one in which Her Children are free to Create as they will, exercising free choice and making lasting, meaningful change to the world around them.   

[madrar]

One last thought, since that sparked a memory.  

 

Cole: "They left for love, and then love lost them. More pain, more joy than anyone can bear, and yet they embrace it."

Solas: "How could they not?"

 

There’s admittedly not much to go on here, but my gut instinct is that this speaks directly to the time of the First Rebellion and all that has come since.  Mythal and Elgar'nan initially left the shapeless “Eden” of the pre-veil world for love, before his slow corruption by power drove them to opposing sides in an ideological war that has raged across the ages since.  The is the very core of Thedas laid bare: it is a struggle, the experience acute and heavy with meaning in a way it could never have been in Eden.  And despite cycles of pain, betrayal, and loss, there has yet been a precious measure of beauty, creation, and joy, and they would not choose to have done otherwise.

[madrar]

. Afterall she walks out of the tears of the Earth. There are just a few contradictions I see at least.

 

That's not a contradiction, actually. Remember, each "spell" of revolutionary change requires the sacrifice of the Wife.  The Dalish tale of Mythal's emergence from the sea is a reference to her physical restoration after her death in the first rebellion against the Sun.  

 

I would have to dig into how I believe elven inheritance works to explain fully, but the first generation offspring of Mythals first Children (the now-physical elvish race) could not have been physically elvish, as there would be no available "fade shadow" to attach to the mortal body,  This ties in with a phenotypic difference in ears, which are not found in beings without a complete fade shadow.  (They do seem to be, kind of hilariously, actual "fade detectors", as mentioned in party banter with Cole and Sera.)

 

This would make Mythal's first mortal form, and the form she takes ever afterward, human.  It seems clear that passing souls through the veil increases in difficulty with the power of the soul in question.  Beings like Cole can flit back and forth almost at will.  OGSes, being among the strongest and most "complete" in Thedas, require very, very thin veil to pass: explaining why Andruil could only be restored to mortal form (Sera) at the demon-ridden orphanage in Denerim, and why Sandal (June) was discovered near enormous amounts of raw lyrium in the Deep Roads.  It also explains why Warden-death is required to force an Archdemon soul's into the fade, as the Warden's half-blighted, half-virtuous human soul acts to grab the OGS and pull it along. 

 

Mythal, as one the most powerful spirits in existence, cannot pass through the veil at all. Consequently, I don't believe Solas-as-Falon'Din could help guide her to another body even if he wanted to, and is why her system of daughters is necessary.   

[madrar]

*rubs her temples*

 

That's a lot of theory for one day.  Someone at Bioware either hit a jackpot in the office betting pool, or is drunk out of their minds from from having to play the Hilariously Wrong Lore drinking game.  

[Gill Kaiser]

It's getting all The Golden Bough up in here!

[madrar]

It's getting all The Golden Bough up in here!

 

I have... no idea what that means.   @w@   Good thing?  Bad thing?

[Giantdeathrobot]

Hot damn. As someone else said, if this was legit, that's some Eldre scrolls-level lore right there. But it's even better because Dragon Age doesn't leave its lore to books and such, and this would have a place of great importance in the actual games.

[Gill Kaiser]

The Golden Bough was a late 19th Century treatise on religions from an anthropological perspective. In it, it was argued that all religions were essentially linked by a common primordial myth, that of a sun god who married an earth goddess, and was ritually sacrificed/betrayed at the time of the harvest, only to be reborn with the spring.

 

I see a lot of similarities with your theory, especially the interplay between the sun and the moon entities. I have little doubt that the writers of DA lore are aware of these mythological tropes.

 

The distinction here being that Mythal may be the one who was killed and reborn. Dragon Age has often exhibited female roles where one would traditionally expect a male. Then again, as you said, we don't know what happened to the sun entity.

[madrar]

The Golden Bough was a late 19th Century treatise on religions from an anthropological perspective. In it, it was argued that all religions were essentially linked by a common primordial myth, that of a sun god who married an earth goddess, was ritually sacrificed at the time of the harvest, only to be reborn with the spring.

 

I see a lot of similarities with your theory, especially the interplay between the sun and the moon entities. I have little doubt that the writers of DA lore are aware of these mythological tropes.

 

*facepalm*

 

Good god.  Sounds like it would have saved me a lot of time and theory-crafting.

[Gill Kaiser]

*facepalm*

 

Good god.  Sounds like it would have saved me a lot of time and theory-crafting.

 

It's possible, but who knows how deep the rabbit hole goes? If you came up with it independently, perhaps the parallels show that you might be onto something?

 

You can actually read the whole of the thing for free here:

 

http://www.sacred-te...com/pag/frazer/

[madrar]

Pointing this out, because I am an idiot who somehow missed it before.

 

Elgar'nan's creation myth is a literal depiction of the act of Creation in the DA universe: the intersection of the Earth (Fade) and the Sun (Will).  

 

 

 

...don't mind me.  Just going to go sit in the dunce corner for a bit.  

[madrar]

Before you get ahead of yourself, it should be said that after "Hm," In that quote; it was just a self thought blurb, not in reference to your ideas.

 

AH.  The lack of quotes threw me off- didn't mean to rehash theory you were already on board with.  Sorry!

[Cheerios789]

First of all, I love you.  I love theory-crafting and I love what you're doing here.

 

Now down to business.  I just read your Solas=F'D/Dirth theory and I'm unsurprisingly on board with this.  It's very hard not to notice the incredible similarities between Solas and both of those deities.  I had not considered the whole punishment with him being sent to the Void and then returning as Fen'Harel, but I love it. 

 

I do have one question.  I would have asked it over there, but I really wanted to make sure I got a response.  You quoted Solas speaking about Falon'din quite a bit.  I did a completionist playthrough and I thought I got all the conversations ... but I must have missed that one.  Could you let me know when he says that?

[Cheerios789]

Okay, can I speculate?

 

Aw, f*ck it ... I'm doing it anyways.

 

I would like to talk about the most personally aggravating part of DAI.  What the hell was Corypheus doing to the Divine in the Temple of Sacred Ashes?  Why did he need her?  What would killing her bring him?  Corypheus seems lackluster on the surface, but he's actually painfully pragmatic.  I can't imagine him killing the Divine simply as a scare tactic.  He had to have a reason.  Now it could be that Corypheus recognized the Divine as a focal point of the Chant of Light (Song of Power) and that by killing her as a ritual sacrifice he meant to rend the Veil enough to enter the Black City.  That seems to be the most obvious answer.  So what went wrong?

 

 

Now if all went as Corypheus had planned maybe he really would have succeeded and once again entered the Black City, but he accidentally set up his own fall.  Because he did not know that he rigged the table to trigger the Husband/Wife/Lover trifecta.  

 

Corypheus clearly represents the Fade here.  After all he was one of the original Tevinter Magisters.  Thus he is the Husband.

 

The Divine represents the People and their connection to each other and the Earth.  She is the focal point of the unifying song of the Chant.  So she would be the Wife.

 

Then we have the Inquisitor.  Now she/he walks in at the last moment and the Divine recognizes them and tasks them with the charge of "run while you can, warn them".  Then she "gives" them the orb.  If the orb is truly a creation of Mythal and it recognizes the Divine as role of "the Wife", then it would make sense that it would latch onto the Inquisitor and bestow the power upon them.  This would make the Inquisitor the Lover.

 

Now I am not saying that this counts as a "Rebellion" as you have labeled them.  I am saying that this is old magic.  This is a lesser representation of what has happened again and again and again.  And I think that it was only this combination that allowed the orb to "unlock".  I have always thought that the power of the anchor is frighteningly similar to the power of Dirthamen and whatever the Inquisitor did at the end to send Corypheus into the Fade was similar to Falon'din.  It could be that instead of Solas' powers being stripped from him, that they were instead locked inside the orb and the Inquisitor unlocked them.

 

I don't know.  This got away from me.  I hope it's legible enough that you see where I was going with it.

 

It does make me wonder though.  Why did Solas give the orb to Corypheus?  Did he think that he would be the beneficiary of the spell?  Did he think that it would only latch onto him, because last time he was in the role of the Lover?

[madrar]

 

I do have one question.  I would have asked it over there, but I really wanted to make sure I got a response.  You quoted Solas speaking about Falon'din quite a bit.  I did a completionist playthrough and I thought I got all the conversations ... but I must have missed that one.  Could you let me know when he says that?

 

Hmm. I can't recall exactly when, but I would assume it was on examination of Falon'Din's mural at the Temple of Mythal.  That seems to be the trigger for most of his god-specific discussions.   

[madrar]

Okay, can I speculate?

 

Aw, f*ck it ... I'm doing it anyways.

 

I would like to talk about the most personally aggravating part of DAI.  What the hell was Corypheus doing to the Divine in the Temple of Sacred Ashes?  Why did he need her?  What would killing her bring him?  Corypheus seems lackluster on the surface, but he's actually painfully pragmatic.  I can't imagine him killing the Divine simply as a scare tactic.  He had to have a reason.  Now it could be that Corypheus recognized the Divine as a focal point of the Chant of Light (Song of Power) and that by killing her as a ritual sacrifice he meant to rend the Veil enough to enter the Black City.  That seems to be the most obvious answer.  So what went wrong?

 

<snip>

 

I don't know.  This got away from me.  I hope it's legible enough that you see where I was going with it.

 

It does make me wonder though.  Why did Solas give the orb to Corypheus?  Did he think that he would be the beneficiary of the spell?  Did he think that it would only latch onto him, because last time he was in the role of the Lover?

 

You just blew my mind.  I'm going to have to think hard about this.

 

My assumption was that Corypheus used the ToSA as the location for his ritual because it happened to be sitting on an enormous pile of lyrium.  (This comes up in dialog in DA:O if you bring Oghren and Lilianna on the Ashes quest.)  But I see what you're getting at- I really do, and it's damn interesting.  Corypheus would be Will, though- specifically a direct extension of the Sun's Will, since he carries the blight.  

 

Aside from the idea of the Divine as Wife sacrifice, I'm also convinced at this point that very little is truly coincidental in the DA universe: the temple, originally elven, was built there for a reason, and parsing out why that is could give us some insight into why he might also have chosen it.   It could simply be the proximity to lyrium.   It might be more.  The codex On Skyhold comes to mind, with the question of the unknown structure Master Ganot built there, and the mysterious inference that he expected doing so would allow him to "see what the elves wished to see."

 

*rubs her temples*

 

I'm not sure I have enough pieces to get anywhere with this, but there's something there.  And thanks for the attempted-trio theory!  That's interesting stuff.