51 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

I agree, I love reading different takes on the characters. It's interesting how we can all see the same things on screen yet come away with different meanings.

[Godeskian]

No, a hardened Leliana will tell you flat out that she held herself back. She took the job of the Left Hand because she wanted it and the Divine's regrets were pointless and actually allowed her to let go of her own. No one made her a killer but herself.

 

She's not being steered towards any course she doesn't already wish to be on, except the course of "goodness" that the Warden and then the Quizzy try to push her to if they choose to.  DAO and DAI is like what? Over a decade? And she's still killing people, spying, and doing dirty work for people she could have just said no to. She's didn't learn anything from your Warden in DAO because that's not the person she wants to be. Hence why your Quizzy needs to go out of his/her way to tell her not to kill people.  That choice was one she was going to make on her own without you. So yeah, good luck babysitting her when she sits on the Sunburst Throne.  lol!

 

I can accept that you hold that opinion without agreeing with it.

[Godeskian]

I agree, I love reading different takes on the characters. It's interesting how we can all see the same things on screen yet come away with different meanings.

 

Indeed. But then i've been having these sorts of arguments since Baldur's Gate. I argued strenously that there was more to characters like Jack and Miranda from Mass Effect as well. Ultimately its a videogame, barring specific revelations in DA4, it's all interpretation anyway. 

[Godeskian]

It's not who you are underneath; it's what you do that defines you. - Batman Begins

 

Leliana is a stone cold killer and kills people off the strength of hypothetical scenarios. 

 

All that matters in life is that we try, promise me that you'll try. - Captain Dylan Hunt

 

Posting quotes that already support your viewpoint is not very persuasive as an argument.

 

As for being a stone cold killer, yes she is. Of course since I've got the 2.5K kills achievement in the bag, so is my inquisitor, but she still tries to be a decent person.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, a hardened Leliana will tell you flat out that she held herself back. She took the job of the Left Hand because she wanted it and the Divine's regrets were pointless and actually allowed her to let go of her own. No one made her a killer but herself.

 

She's not being steered towards any course she doesn't already wish to be on, except the course of "goodness" that the Warden and then the Quizzy try to push her to if they choose to.  DAO and DAI is like what? Over a decade? And she's still killing people, spying, and doing dirty work for people she could have just said no to. She's didn't learn anything from your Warden in DAO because that's not the person she wants to be. Hence why your Quizzy needs to go out of his/her way to tell her not to kill people.  That choice was one she was going to make on her own without you. So yeah, good luck babysitting her when she sits on the Sunburst Throne.  lol!

To be honest leliana claims 2 different things whether you harden her or not (as well in dao or in dai).I doubt she knows herself who she is and she is more others expected her to be.For me she is rly mentally unbalanced individual for not having own personality.Also i want point she came back to being bard because divine wanted her to come back to that same as the warden could want her to come back. 

[Godeskian]

To be honest leliana claims 2 different things whether you harden her or not (as well in dao or in dai).I doubt she knows herself who she is and she is more others expected her to be.For me she is rly mentally unbalanced individual for not having own personality.Also i want point she came back to being bard because divine wanted her to come back to that same as the warden could want her to come back. 

 

Well I agree with you that she's mentally unbalanced. But if she wants people to tell her how to behave, I'd rather it be me telling her to be a humane person than the Divine telling her to go out and kill people for her.

 

Mind you, I'm not as convinced that the Divine Justinia was all that good underneath anyway. If she was truly the saintly person everyone seems to think she is, then why did she have people like Leliana and Cassandra working for her. If I'm to question the morality of a spymaster, I must also question the morality of the one who uses her.

 

It's also interesting that one conversation with Cassandra hints to this as well as she tells you that she and Leliana remember two very different interpretations of Justinia

[Hazegurl]

To be honest leliana claims 2 different things whether you harden her or not (as well in dao or in dai).I doubt she knows herself who she is and she is more others expected her to be.For me she is rly mentally unbalanced individual for not having own personality.Also i want point she came back to being bard because divine wanted her to come back to that same as the warden could want her to come back. 

True, I think her character is most likely meant to give the player a pat on the back for changing her ways or something so I figured she would probably just claim whatever the player encourages her to do. I personally just remain silent and just let her fall on her own. So her progress to hardened seems more natural to me.  I did put her on the Sunburst throne once while hardened. That Quizzy will just keep her alive long enough to shake up the Chantry some more then let her get murder knifed.  I do like hardened Leliana though but I would be working on moving Harding in her place whether she remains spymaster or not at the end. She's just too unstable to trust long term no matter what the Quizzy encourages her to do.

 

She could have said No to the Divine. The Warden probably can't just say no to Warden high command. 

 

I would imagine that all Divines would have a Left and Right hand if they're smart. The Chantry seems like a very cutthroat place underneath.  Just look at all the war table missions involving those scheming harpies. That's why someone decent like Giselle would never make a good Divine. or at least not one that will live for very long.

[RNDMstuff]

Leliana strikes me as a character who lacks any resemblance of a moral compass...

She has no ability whatsoever to handle her own decisions. She's been sticking to different people to decide for her throughout her whole life. First Marjolene, then Warden, then Justinia, and now an Inquisitor.

I did my share of babysitting in DAO only to see her go mental at the end of Inquisition. I was like... "Uhh... What is she saying..."  In real life I'd be slowly moving towards the doorway already.

That said, I didnt bother to reassure any of her doubts this time. She's like what? 40? Time to think for herself, I think

 

 

And yeah, in Inquisitor's place I'd be getting rid of her ASAP. It's not safe to have such an unstable person in charge

[Godeskian]

True, I think her character is most likely meant to give the player a pat on the back for changing her ways or something so I figured she would probably just claim whatever the player encourages her to do. I personally just remain silent and just let her fall on her own. So her progress to hardened seems more natural to me.  I did put her on the Sunburst throne once while hardened. That Quizzy will just keep her alive long enough to shake up the Chantry some more then let her get murder knifed.  I do like hardened Leliana though but I would be working on moving Harding in her place whether she remains spymaster or not at the end. She's just too unstable to trust long term no matter what the Quizzy encourages her to do.

 

She could have said No to the Divine. The Warden probably can't just say no to Warden high command. 

 

I would imagine that all Divines would have a Left and Right hand if they're smart. The Chantry seems like a very cutthroat place underneath.  Just look at all the war table missions involving those scheming harpies. That's why someone decent like Giselle would never make a good Divine. or at least not one that will live for very long.

 

You're probably right. Bioware seems to be making characters like that a tradition. As I said, I tend to play over the top hero's and paragons. Letting an ally, reluctant, unwilling, mentally unstable or otherwise just isn't in my nature as a gamer.

 

And you're also probably right about Giselle, given the power both temporal and political that the chantry wields, having someone genuinely good on the throne is a recipe for disaster. Having said that, the sheer Saint like way everyone seems to talk about Justinia in game seems counterintuitive to me. Someone that universally beloved is almost always only so because of good PR, because no one is that decent and wields that much power.

[Godeskian]

 

She has no ability whatsoever to handle her own decisions. She's been sticking to different people to decide for her throughout her whole life. First Marjolene, then Warden, then Justinia, and now an Inquisitor.

 

Now that is an interesting point.

[Hazegurl]

You're probably right. Bioware seems to be making characters like that a tradition. As I said, I tend to play over the top hero's and paragons. Letting an ally, reluctant, unwilling, mentally unstable or otherwise just isn't in my nature as a gamer.

 

And you're also probably right about Giselle, given the power both temporal and political that the chantry wields, having someone genuinely good on the throne is a recipe for disaster. Having said that, the sheer Saint like way everyone seems to talk about Justinia in game seems counterintuitive to me. Someone that universally beloved is almost always only so because of good PR, because no one is that decent and wields that much power.

I agree, I think most of the belief in Justinia being a saint is due to religious fervor. Who wants to believe the Maker is wrong in guiding the selection of the Divine? I don't think she's a bad person or cold and cruel, but she seemed to have gotten good use out of her Left hand.

 

 

Leliana strikes me as a character who lacks any resemblance of a moral compass...

She has no ability whatsoever to handle her own decisions. She's been sticking to different people to decide for her throughout her whole life. First Marjolene, then Warden, then Justinia, and now an Inquisitor.

I did my share of babysitting in DAO only to see her go mental at the end of Inquisition. I was like... "Uhh... What is she saying..."  In real life I'd be slowly moving towards the doorway already.

That said, I didnt bother to reassure any of her doubts this time. She's like what? 40? Time to think for herself, I think

 

 

And yeah, in Inquisitor's place I'd be getting rid of her ASAP. It's not safe to have such an unstable person in charge

I agree, she does come across as parasitic the way she latches on whomever is in charge and siphons morality from them. It almost makes her come across as sociopathic although I doubt that is what the writers intended. 

 

Edit: I just realized that my headcanon to replace her with Harding sort of works with some in game dialogue.  If you talk to Harding at Skyhold she mentions that Leliana randomly gave her a death glare. Uh oh. lol!

[Qun00]

Leliana dresses up like a priestess but she's one ruthless motherfucker.

There's this quest where you're sent to the future and she takes the villain's son as hostage to make him revert things to normal.

Regardless of his answer, she kills his son anyway.

[Chenoah]

I think she's not decent because she sells her dreams as visions for self worth when she had none and I think she's just an attention hog, something like Vivienne. Never liked her ever since that moment. Not to mention she was rather pathetic around Marjolaine. I get you and others like her. I don't. *shrug*

 

And I get that you'll likely interpret her dream thing differently. That's how I see it.

Her at the temple of sacred ashes. Lol awkward...

[wright1978]

Leliana dresses up like a priestess but she's one ruthless motherfucker.
There's this quest where you're sent to the future and she takes the villain's son as hostage to make him revert things to normal.
Regardless of his answer, she kills his son anyway.

That's my girl!

[hong]

from Marjoline, to left hand of the Divine, to slaughtering the opponents of the Inquisition, she is not rainbows and kittens

Ofc not. She's nugs.

[Colonelkillabee]

Her at the temple of sacred ashes. Lol awkward...

I really wanted to yell "I KNEW IT!" Then.

[Colonelkillabee]

It's not who you are underneath; it's what you do that defines you. - Batman Begins

All that matters in life is that we try, promise me that you'll try. - Captain Dylan Hunt\

The only god is money, and bitches, dude. -Kanye the Giant from Key and Peele

[Timpants]

From what I understood, Leliana has spent most of her adult life working for Marjolaine and Justinian, who both didn't seem to actually care about her as a person and just use her for her spying and stabbing skills. There also the torture and likely rape she suffered after Marjolaine's betrayal. I think Leliana is a very messed up person and that she doesn't necessarily like doing bad things, but she does them because she thinks that if she doesn't people will find her worthless.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

You didn't buy her any shoes. Leliana is grumpy without pretty shoes.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

There are some other small convos you might've missed with her ... one is in haven in the initial convo about Justinia's death tell her sorry for her loss, another is the first in sky hold regarding spies we lost and telling her it's okay she pulled them back and nobody is dispensable and then another is telling her it's okay to grieve about Justinia's death.

What I find funny is that she can be this bad ass ruthless bard but Morrigan apparently gets to her like in the Winter Palace. I've dealt with her in the past, she's so mean and says mean things to hurt your feelings! ;_;

I like softened Leliana though. Niceness before knives! ;D

[Precursor Meta]

Also, does the first choice in the game have an effect on whether leliana will be hard or soft?

The one where you have to choose between taking the mountain path or charging with the soldiers.

[Leliana]

Don't think you can talk about me without me hearing of it... 

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

From what I understood, Leliana has spent most of her adult life working for Marjolaine and Justinian, who both didn't seem to actually care about her as a person and just use her for her spying and stabbing skills. There also the torture and likely rape she suffered after Marjolaine's betrayal. I think Leliana is a very messed up person and that she doesn't necessarily like doing bad things, but she does them because she thinks that if she doesn't people will find her worthless.

Actually when you think about it, Leliana has spent her entire life being treated more like a disposable tool than a person. Her mother was a servant, and died before she could ever really know her. Her master, Cecile, seemed to see her more as a source of entertainment than anything else, judging by her dialogue about her making her take up music and dance for her own amusement. Marjolaine was pretty clearly using her from day one, manipulating her to her whims and exploiting her infatuation. She called Leliana 'pretty thing.' While I don't believe Justinia didn't care about her at all, she was doing it too, seeing her more as a tool than a human being, even if she did regret that. The Warden is potentially the only person we know of that can come along and treat her like a person, and even then they sway her their own way, whether for good or bad is up for debate.

It's not at all surprising she's a little unstable and easily influenced. Also why I really smh at people saying one path, be it hardened or unhardened, is more 'right' for the character and 'she's just kidding herself!!11!' etc etc. Both paths are valid, both lead to her coming to a realisation about herself depending on how you've played it and she changes, one way or the other.

[Gervaise]

You have to watch that conversation in Haven thing because I was experiencing a glitch that meant when I went round to her tent she didn't appear to be there.    A similar thing happened with Cassandra in Skyhold.     So you could miss important conversations simply because you think she's off somewhere doing her job.    I was told on the boards to save and reload at the spot and she would appear - which did the trick but was rather annoying.  

 

I must admit that I find the situation where what a person turns out to be depends on one conversation at the very beginning of the game is a bit false.   Also the fact was that she was in charge of her spy network and therefore the option to simply watch and learn was for me the appropriate one.    If I felt what she was doing was wrong, I should either then have been given the opportunity to interfere or alternatively a second chance at influencing her later in the game.    It didn't seem right somehow when I barely knew her to be butting in an telling her how to do her job.     When the Warden has the chance to determine which route her life will take, it was a good way into their time together, when they had had plenty of opportunity for discussion and getting to know each other (simply as friends), so it seemed appropriate that she would respect them and listen to their advice.    To be honest, when she is already experiencing a crisis of faith and the Inquisitor could potentially be denying any link with the Maker or Andraste, why would them telling her not to do something have such a lasting affect?    Not only that but in the context of their world values, a spy who betrays their network and cause the death of other agents does deserve death; that's not being ruthless, just realistic.   What in the world was she meant to do with the spy if you tell her to spare them, lock them up and throw away the key?    How is that less ruthless?     You can't simply leave them running around since they know too much and there was no indication they actually felt bad about what they had done.     On the other hand, the cleric we catch later in the game has learnt very little of value and could safely be locked up until after the selection of the new Divine, or even released without it seriously harming our cause.   In fact showing her mercy might actually aid it.    So Lelianna's reaction seems completely out of all proportion to the threat and the act of someone you'd seriously worry about placing in control of anything important.

 

Sometimes the decisions we are expected to take in order to keep people from becoming monsters defy logic in the world in which they are set.