900 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

LOL people are actually arguing against the Kirkwall annulment being a genocide? Some people need to read a dictionary:

 

http://dictionary.re...browse/genocide

[I present Chuck Bass]

im good no need for

 Okay ill find you later on the "we need a dwarves only dragon age game" thread, when its time.

[I present Chuck Bass]

If thats Solas then he looks pretty good in a wig

 i was thinking he kind of looked like sera... yucks.

 

Not the best picture of Solas if you ask me.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Maybe because the Templars are there to kill all the mages while the mages were trying to defend themselves. They weren't trying to kill all the templars

So if the mages had killed every templar it wouldn't be genocide but the templars killing mages is genocide?

[raging_monkey]

Okay ill find you later on the "we need a dwarves only dragon age game" thread, when its time.

anything could happen

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why do these topics always go into killing mages and templars? It started with education and suddenly there is mass murder going on..

Maybe because everytime a mage does something bad, templar supporters like to point it out as an example of how all mages are bad and deserve to be locked up but when instances of templars being oppressive or corrupt are brought up, they are swept up as simply being an exception. The fact that some are okay with killing an entire group of people for something they didn't do just because they're mages also might have something to do with it.

[Panda]

Maybe because everytime a mage does something bad, templar supporters like to point it out as an example of how all mages are bad and deserve to be locked up but when instances of templars being oppressive or corrupt are brought up, they are swept up as simply being an exception. The fact that some are okay with killing an entire group of people for something they didn't do just because they're mages also might have something to do with it.

 

Or maybe two sides just want to kill each other without thinking on how illogical that is and againt the consiquences.

 

Pretty much reason why I don't support mages nor templars is this, I'm not into mass murders.

[KaiserShep]

So if the mages had killed every templar it wouldn't be genocide but the templars killing mages is genocide?

Genocide is also a matter of intention. If a hostile force invades and tries to wipe out the residents down to the last man woman and child, but the residents actually succeed in not only fighting back, but utterly decimating that hostile force, that cannot be considered genocide, because those people would have otherwise not bothered if their lives weren't in jeopardy.

[I present Chuck Bass]

anything could happen

I'm just messing around man, it was a good run while it lasted.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Should mages be allowed to be "free" as in have the same level of personal freedoms that every free person outside of Tevinter has?

 

Sure, why not. I think that mages should totally have autonomy as a people and as organization that teaches its members to safely control their powers without succumbing to demons or blood magic. So, yes, I'm in support of an organization like the College of Enchanters being formed to do these for mages everywhere. My only problem is that the College like every other group in Thedas needs some level of external oversight that ensures that they don't something insanely stupid, like say, tear the Veil and try to enter the Golden City or perform blood magic rituals that could weaken the Veil and allow demons to pore out in the dozens.

 

The fact of matter is that even a small number of mages together can literally doom the world and because of that fact a group like a reformed Templars or Seekers who have anti-magic abilities and the trust of the common folk and nobility must be around to make sure that catastrophes like the Blights or oppressive magocracies like Tevinter can never come to pass.

 

That said, these Templars/Seekers wouldn't be prison wardens. We've seen how such a system has worked and how it eventually failed after a long list of abuses against mages were done by the Templar Order. So, in my opinion, instead of being prison guards meant to contain mages a reformed Templar/Seeker organization should be like investigators and witch hunters who only deal with mage-related issues when its clear that a mage or an entire Circle has decided to do something so incredible dangerous and detrimentally to public safety that they must be dealt.

 

That's seems pretty fair and even-handed to me. 

[raging_monkey]

I'm just messing around man, it was a good run while it lasted.

i joking too. I swear having my dog check if my jokes are funny is harder than it looks XD

[Dean_the_Young]

LOL people are actually arguing against the Kirkwall annulment being a genocide? Some people need to read a dictionary:

 

http://dictionary.re...browse/genocide

 

Would the Kirkwall Circle count as a distinct national, racial, political, or cultural group?

 

It'd be pretty easy to say 'no' on the grounds of categorization. The Circles certainly aren't nations. The Kirkwall circle was not a unique race. It wasn't a unique polity either, being a sub-component of a larger polity (the Circle of Magi as a whole). The only category it might stand up on would be cultural- though that's about as strong as the polity argument.

 

A well known problem with the traditional (and UN) definitions of genocide is that they can be stretched incredibly large or remarkably small. If, say, the Kirkwall Circle could be counted as a unique polity, there's no clear or logical stopping point from considering, say, the Kirkwall Chantry as an equally qualified polity. And how large (or small) does a subculture get to be before it's considered a valid category for genocide- does the elimination of the Tal'vashoth on the coast count? Does a single Dalish tribe of twenty-odd people count?

 

 

The whole genocide angle is a misleading and not particularly useful angle in the Kirkwall discussion. It's hyperbolic and inflamatory when there are far more measured, and accurate, words to you. 'Massacre,' 'atrocity,' 'purge,' even 'crack down' can apply just as well or better. The genocide angle is just about trying to win the argument by sticking the ultimate label on it.

[I present Chuck Bass]

i joking too. I swear having my dog check if my jokes are funny is harder than it looks XD

I use my cat... i know the pain

[raging_monkey]

I use my cat... i know the pain

and they wonder why their paydays are always "late". XD

[ComedicSociopathy]

Are you guys seriously debating the terminology of genocide?

 

It's ultimately just a word and trying to justify its use in your argument doesn't necessarily make it stronger in context, especially since its very difficult to classify mages as an actually race of people. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Maybe because everytime a mage does something bad, templar supporters like to point it out as an example of how all mages are bad and deserve to be locked up but when instances of templars being oppressive or corrupt are brought up, they are swept up as simply being an exception.

 

That's one way to think about it. Another way to think about it is the social rationals for laws and police in general.

 

Police aren't made because everyone is expect to break the law- police are made because anyone could break the law, and enough do that society has enough permanent watchers and responders with a healthy suspicion (and a good deal of courtesy) of everyone.

 

On the other hand, the inverse logic isn't applied. We accept that police are justified because of what some of the many might do with one group (the population at large), but we don't disband the police because of what some of them do, in fact, do. We recognize that flaws in a systemic response aren't necessarily invalidations of the system itself, and that the reasons for the system's existence still hold true enough to keep an imperfect system.

 

 

Or, in other words- minority problems in a group may warrant a system response, without meaning that minority problems in a system invalidating the system.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Are you guys seriously debating the terminology of genocide?
 
It's ultimately just a word and trying to justify its use in your argument doesn't necessarily make it stronger in context, especially since its very difficult to classify mages as an actually race of people.

Discussing the rights of fictional characters is serious business here

[Panda]

I guess it's just hard to discuss about matter when it always comes to down to "let's kill all the mages" and "let's kill all the templars". You can't really have good talk with pro-templar nor pro-mage people at least from my experience.

[Dean_the_Young]

Should mages be allowed to be "free" as in have the same level of personal freedoms that every free person outside of Tevinter has?

 

Ouch. Damning with faint praise there.

 

 

"You have the freedom to starve. You have the freedom to be raped by a noble. You have the freedom for the same noble to be your judge and jury for any crime you are accused of. You have the freedom to be tortured for a confession. You have the freedom to be a bigot. You have the freedom to have the crimes comitted against you by other bigots to be ignored by yet more bigots for bigoted reasons. You have the freedom to be killed without any organized response to bringing your murderer to justice. You have the right to be killed and looted for your boots by a Protagonist."

[raging_monkey]

I guess it's just hard to discuss about matter when it always comes to down to "let's kill all the mages" and "let's kill all the templars". You can't really have good talk with pro-templar nor pro-mage people at least from my experience.

well when both sides get holy yeah but its really just putting the drama aside and talk while making lite jokes.

I get along with both groups(overall)

[Ahalvern]

I believe they should be free. The whole system was a fused bomb waiting to explode to begin with. It promoted the estrangement of mages resulting in justification for even more fear and alienation.

 

Mages should go undergo education yes, but not inside gilded cages. They should be taught the dangers and benefits of magic and encouraged to use it for good. They should also be notified of dangers of possession and offered a better alternative than Harrowing to prevent it, if there is such a way. Thankfully the College of Enchanters seems to be a good way to put things in working order.

 

Magic may be a more powerful weapon than swords or bows, but still limiting the potential of every gifted mage does more bad than good. There are dangers that come with freedom yes, but there's no way everything will be sunshine and rainbows in Thedas, no matter what you do.

[Elfyoth]

Let's lock up all children then, who knows, one might be a mage who might kill 100 people. Too much "maybe" and "could" in this reasoning.

Or his candy might be a bomb 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Ouch. Damning with faint praise there.

 

 

"You have the freedom to starve. You have the freedom to be raped by a noble. You have the freedom for the same noble to be your judge and jury for any crime you are accused of. You have the freedom to be tortured for a confession. You have the freedom to be a bigot. You have the freedom to have the crimes comitted against you by other bigots to be ignored by yet more bigots for bigoted reasons. You have the freedom to be killed without any organized response to bringing your murderer to justice. You have the right to be killed and looted for your boots by a Protagonist."

 

Never said freedom was perfect, especially for what passes for "freedom" in Thedas. If mages want to be free from the Chantry and the Templars they need to be ready to deal with all crap that every non-noble has to deal with in Thedas.

 

No more Chantry paid regular meals, security, Circle towers, education or magical tomes. 

 

Hope they have fun being free. 

[raging_monkey]

Never said freedom was perfect, especially for what passes for "freedom" in Thedas. If mages want to be free from the Chantry and the Templars they need to be ready to deal with all crap that every non-noble has to deal with in Thedas.
 
No more Chantry paid regular meals, security, Circle towers, education or magical tomes. 
 
Hope they have fun being free.

reasonable

[actionhero112]

Nope. That's dumb. When your entire existence is a threat to everyone around you due to possession and insidious blood magic, you don't deserve to be free. Not when that freedom comes at the safety of others.

 

I don't understand, how has the mage rebellion shown anything other than the vast destructive capabilities of mages when let loose upon the world? Burnt down farms, refugees everywhere.

 

Not that the templars are any better, but the mages certainly shouldn't be freed.