1820 réponses à ce sujet

[TevinterSupremacist]

You mean, kind of like if there would be a new thread about every three days complaining about the limited/fewer/ugly/bi options for straight male Inquisitors for the last two months?

 

Yeah, I can see how that would be really annoying.

At least those who complain like that have the decency of complaining simply by stating they don't want something and/or feel neglected, instead of trying to paint their cries with terms like problematic/toxic/etc, as if they it's their place to morally condemn a piece of entertainment simply for not being to their tastes.

[Laurelinde]

No, instead they use words like 'target demographic' and 'biggest customer base' and 'majority of the money' as a kind of might-makes-right strongarm tactic to try to ensure that the spotlight remains precisely where it has been for the last X years or centuries, everyone else be damned.  Because the upshot of 'straight people/men/white people are the majority and/or most important subset of games customers so games must focus on and prioritise them' is functionally the same as saying 'LGBTQ people/women/PoC don't get games for them.'  That will be the outcome, if no games companies are willing or able to step outside that comfort zone, and I think the industry will be the weaker for it.

 

Or is this the part where I get to say 'If you are unhappy with the options presented with you in [piece or field of media] why don't you create your own [game/film/book/etc.]', as I've heard so many times before when under-represented groups ask why there are so few things acknowledging them?

 

 

[Maverick827]

Why are "straight males" attacked whenever they express an opinion on these forums?

 

Why is this allowed?

 

What is wrong with everyone?

[TevinterSupremacist]

No, instead they use words like 'target demographic' and 'biggest customer base' and 'majority of the money' as a kind of might-makes-right strongarm tactic to try to ensure that the spotlight remains precisely where it has been for the last X years or centuries, everyone else be damned. 

Yes , people, erroneously I admit, claiming they must be the target demographic because they have been the target demographic until now and therefore financed the company which might otherwise not have existed is comparable to people claiming a work of fiction is morally questionable because it doesn't cater to their tastes. Of course.

/s

 

Disclaimer (because it has been proven that reading comprehension on the internet drops 30-45%) : The [/s] applied to the "is comparable" and not the "erroneously I admit".

[In Exile]

Why are "straight males" attacked whenever they express an opinion on these forums?

 

Why is this allowed?

 

What is wrong with everyone?

 

No one attacks "straight males". Now, some weird-o who actually identifies with the label as if it was some kind of identity IRL, that's different. Especially over something as ridiculous as whether or not video-game characters meet some undefined standard of attractiveness. 

[Maverick827]

No one attacks "straight males". Now, some weird-o who actually identifies with the label as if it was some kind of identity IRL, that's different. Especially over something as ridiculous as whether or not video-game characters meet some undefined standard of attractiveness. 

 

I take it you didn't read the thread.  It's full of the straight-male-as-pejorative and vindictive "nom nom straight male tears" posts.

[Fandango]

Why are "straight males" attacked whenever they express an opinion on these forums?

As a straight male, I'm embarrassed that you would even ask the question.

[Laurelinde]

Yes , people, erroneously I admit, claiming they must be the target demographic because they have been the target demographic until now and therefore financed the company which might otherwise not have existed is comparable to people claiming a work of fiction is morally questionable because it doesn't cater to their tastes. Of course.

/s

 

Disclaimer (because it has been proven that reading comprehension on the internet drops 30-45%) : The [/s] applied to the "is comparable" and not the "erroneously I admit".

 

It's comparable in the sense that it is people asking for what they want and being met with responses, some positive, some negative.

 

It's also comparable in the sense that there is a lot of pushback against 'SJWs' supposedly bullying artists into producing media according to some kind of progressivist quotas, thereby damaging artistic integrity.  There seems to be very little of this when people try to use the argument that artistic integrity should be cast aside if and when an artist decides to produce something that does not focus on or aim at the majority, even though the outcome - artists apparently producing what consumers of one ilk or another are 'making' them produce, rather than what they actually want to produce.  

 

If Bioware wants to aim outside straight white males for their target demographic for any particular game, if they want to aim at a wider fan base, they are entirely within their rights to do so.  They do not owe some kind of...I don't know, protection money?  To anyone who has bought their games before. 

 

As far as claiming any pieces of media are morally questionable, you get that on many sides of an argument.  Think of any 'think of the children!' debate that comes up with the open depiction of LGBTQ people (this will vary depending on the culture where you live, but I'm thinking of the end of Legend of Korra, for example, where the creators have stated they clearly intended for Korra to be in a same-sex relationship, but they would not be permitted to show this on television.)  I can still remember angry posts on the BSN about DA2, and how it promoted homosexuality.  

 

The belief that media and culture mutually influence each other, and that media producers can and should consider the messages they reflect and reinforce, is most certainly not limited to "liberal" people or "SJWs".  

[BronzTrooper]

* sighs *  Why do I even bother clicking on these threads?  

[crimzontearz]

I think the problem is not really the quantity but the quality if you ask me....


That said


Thank you to that who complained about DA2 approach


This is the result of your complaints.

[In Exile]

I take it you didn't read the thread.  It's full of the straight-male-as-pejorative and vindictive "nom nom straight male tears" posts.

 

I scanned the thread. I didn't see anything along the lines of what you're saying. But I don't want to be unfair. Is there a post you have in mind?

[TevinterSupremacist]

It's comparable in the sense that it is people asking for what they want and being met with responses, some positive, some negative.

 

It's also comparable in the sense that there is a lot of pushback against 'SJWs' supposedly bullying artists into producing media according to some kind of progressivist quotas, thereby damaging artistic integrity. 

There's a difference between questioning business practices and morally condemning the content of a work of fiction. These two aren't comparable. Not all ways of asking for something are the same. When you try to frame the content itself, not the actions and the decisions of the producers, but the very content of fictional story as questionable, you move to a new level of bullshit.

[Laurelinde]

I'm curious why you feel it is so unacceptable to question the content of a piece of media, on whatever grounds.  I am not talking about 'THIS IS EVUL, BAN IT' - I think free speech is on everyone's mind, this week - but what is wrong with someone from any point on the political spectrum saying, hey, I think this thing you said/did is kind of harmful, and here is why?

 

I would also dispute that all of the discussion about 'biggest customers' is really just "questioning business practices."  There is most definitely an implied...I don't want to say threat, but a sense of 'give me what I want, and ignore what other people want, or I will use my dominant position to punish/deprive you.'  Women, LGBTQ people, etc. also buy and play games, and they also have as much right to content that they enjoy as anyone else, even if there are fewer of them overall.  Not to mention that while game developers are obviously making a consumer product and will therefore be taking customers' needs into account; but within that framework, they still have a right to tell the story they want to tell, even if it is not the story of their historically largest demographic.

[AWTEW]

Yep that's the issue I have with ME3. I wouldn't have minded the unequal options so far if everyone at least had a option. But 0 or 1 LI's aren't enough for me in ME3, in my case it was Kaidan or none since you can't romance Garrus in ME3 if you didn't in ME2. Straight males will always have options to romance at least Liara (and Diana Allers) no matter what they have done in previous games.

Exactly, and it was really unfair to the ones who started with ME3. Oh and none of the straight male Li cheated on them..

Why are "straight males" attacked whenever they express an opinion on these forums?

Why is this allowed?

What is wrong with everyone?

The short awnser:
a lot can't get over their entitlement issues, constantly demean characters like josi or cass because they think every women should be an oversexulised object. Oh and there comments about the 'gay agenda' ect

and when this happens on a regular basis with threads like this, it gets so annoying that females and lbgt can't take the entitled whining seriously.

[TevinterSupremacist]

I'm curious why you feel it is so unacceptable to question the content of a piece of media, on whatever grounds.  I am not talking about 'THIS IS EVUL, BAN IT' - I think free speech is on everyone's mind, this week - but what is wrong with someone from any point on the political spectrum saying, hey, I think this thing you said/did is kind of harmful, and here is why?

 

I would also dispute that all of the discussion about 'biggest customers' is really just "questioning business practices."  There is most definitely an implied...I don't want to say threat, but a sense of 'give me what I want, and ignore what other people want, or I will use my dominant position to punish/deprive you.'

If you can argue why it's harmful and prove your point, I have no problem. The problem starts when people  throw around terms like "harmful" or "questionable" without proving their point.

 

There's nothing wrong with customers voting with their wallets.

[Laurelinde]

If you can argue why it's harmful and prove your point, I have no problem. The problem starts when people  throw around terms like "harmful" or "questionable" without proving their point.

 

There's nothing wrong with customers voting with their wallets.

 

I guess I haven't seen a lot of people just outright condemning things as immoral without giving some kind of reason.  Sometimes the reason might not carry that much weight, but that's a different story.

 

There is nothing wrong with customers voting with their wallets.  I do think rather poorly of people who use their wallets as a bludgeon to try to stop other people getting what they might want, though, especially if the people going without have often gone without before.  

[TevinterSupremacist]

I guess I haven't seen a lot of people just outright condemning things as immoral without giving some kind of reason.  Sometimes the reason might not carry that much weight, but that's a different story.

 

There is nothing wrong with customers voting with their wallets.  I do think rather poorly of people who use their wallets as a bludgeon to try to stop other people getting what they might want, though, especially if the people going without have often gone without before.  

No, that's the point of the story. If the reason is null and especially, if that fact is pointed out and yet ignored, there's a big problem.

 

Eh, I doubt many people want to deny others content for the sake of denying it. It's more "limited number of resources and time, focusing on others inevitably means me not getting/getting less stuff I like or getting things I dislike."

[crimzontearz]

Ok...I am going to have to throw my two cents in here.


First


A Bioware game Is NOT a regular piece of media. It does not depict just a story. No...it tells a story in which a character YOU create is indeed the protagonist and it is their goal to give you as much leeway as humanly possible to

1: have agency
2: have a say on that character's personality
3: craft a story (or shape what is given to you) to your liking.

Within the limits of the medium.

That is more or less what a GM/ST does in their table top games. If my players dislike intrigue and politics plots and make themselves a Khaibit, Gangrel blood tenebrous and Daeva CotC Characters I am N-O-T going to even begin proposing to them a boring mundane political and social climb setting that just happens to have protagonists who have a sun allergy.

By the same coin Bioware knows not everyone is straight....not everyone is gay...so they TRY to give everyone something and FACE IT....those characters and storylines are crafted to be LIKED by the audience for the sake of themselves ( remember? There were female focus meetings to craft Thane in a way that would make him appealing to women). Sure sometimes Bioware seems to overlook some major facets of this and then uses the defense "well THAT is the story we wanted to craft" (hello Jacob....the prize you laid your life on the line for and then cheated on says hi....and Hey, I am sure most Thanemancers LOVED getting only a funeral in the citadel DLC and a retcon of his disease just to make sure he died on you)....but mostly they make these arcs with the intent of making us like them and drive then to a somewhat palatable conclusion just like a DM/ST would ( you do not screw your players over wilingly for the ART....no only Walters does that....and only because hus players cannot find him and retaliate).

Anyhow, since these games have budgets there is only so much content that can be crammed in and a delicate balance between what can be put in with X money and how much you are expected to generate in revenue.

There is also the issue of how to listen to feedback because remember....DA2 tried to allow us to pursue anyone BUT....then people complained because ZOMG not realistic and demeaning.

All that in the context of giving people therr opportunity to craft their iwn story which has ZERO IMPACT on anyone else's and not really impacting on the characters' immediate and non-metagamed believability (face it....Dorian being gay is a freaking important part of his story....changing that mud gane2because femquizzy is such a woman she can love him straight would be idiotic and counter productive).

YES .....that was smart.


My outlook? stop complaining about fairness approach the problem from a "how do we please the most people perspective"

[Maverick827]

 

I scanned the thread. I didn't see anything along the lines of what you're saying. But I don't want to be unfair. Is there a post you have in mind?

 

These caught my eye:

 

I have a proposition for BW, don't do romances for straigh pcs at all, so "straight male audience" won't buy the game at all and thus won't complain.

 

Seeing so many threads like these about straight men, shows how much they've been pandered to and now that they aren't anymore, they act exactly like a kid who has been denied sweets and starts crying for dear life.

 

Straight men were the main attention, hence why i always laugh at stupid threads like these.

 

It's like hearing a toddler cry because their average sized slice of cake isn't as ginourmous as they want it to be.

 

 your gender has  dominated gaming.

 

Its called fairness. And if you don't like your choices thats  a personal flaw on you. 

 

Krist, it's one damn game out of how many where girls get more choice than guys, and suddenly the world is ending. A lot of the OP's of these kinds of threads remind me of toddlers, throwing a tantrum.

 

 it gets so annoying that females and lbgt can't take the entitled whining seriously.

 

Read the OP again and tell me how what he said was deserving of being called a child, a toddler, a whiner, etc.

 

Actually, I'll save you the time, because no one deserves this kind of treatment.

 

Unless you're a "straight white male."  Then it's okay.  Faceless BioWareMod## won't do anything.  The thread will just sit here, the trolls won't get any warnings, and it keeps piling on until everyone tires themselves out.

 

But these kinds of posts in the Gay KISA thread?  You'd on the mod train to ban town.  And rightfully so.

 

Here's a crazy idea.  The next time someone makes a thread you don't like, instead of denigrating an entire group of people, just ignore that thread.  This goes for everyone.

[HandofPalpatine]

I may be in the minority but I liked how the LIs were gender/race gated or flat out not-interested (I'm looking at you Vivi...). For me it lent a sense of realism and that the world was crafted in a way that while the IQ is central to the story, s/he was also NOT the centre of the world so to speak. It allowed me to believe that the characters were people in their own rights and weren't just there to be a virtual harem for the IQ much like in real life. 

[crimzontearz]

I may be in the minority but I liked how the LIs were gender/race gated or flat out not-interested (I'm looking at you Vivi...). For me it lent a sense of realism and that the world was crafted in a way that while the IQ is central to the story, s/he was also NOT the centre of the world so to speak. It allowed me to believe that the characters were people in their own rights and weren't just there to be a virtual harem for the IQ much like in real life.

That punishes those who are interested in another set of perspectives


Besides the fact that de facto the story is made for you thus you are it's center....without you there is no story.

[Melca36]

I may be in the minority but I liked how the LIs were gender/race gated or flat out not-interested (I'm looking at you Vivi...). For me it lent a sense of realism and that the world was crafted in a way that while the IQ is central to the story, s/he was also NOT the centre of the world so to speak. It allowed me to believe that the characters were people in their own rights and weren't just there to be a virtual harem for the IQ much like in real life. 

I agree. It made the game much more fun for me.  

[HandofPalpatine]

That punishes those who are interested in another set of perspectives


Besides the fact that de facto the story is made for you thus you are it's center....without you there is no story.

Being at the centre of a story doesn't neccessitate being the centre of the world for every npc. It helped craft a more meaningful experience for me (my opnion feel free to disagree). It just made the characters seem more like people with individual desires and dreams that did not centre around the IQ, other than whether or not the rifts and Breach were closed. 

 

I played an IQ that flirted with everyone and learned that some of the flirts could honestly have come across as compliments or observations, if they did not have the flirt icon, honestly I would not have know that some of those lines were flirty to be honest. 

[Monica21]

All I know is that anyone who thinks the perceived problem will be solved by making every LI playersexual wasn't around for the DA2 arguments about playersexual characters. If Dorian were playersexual his characterization would suffer heavily. And I would be annoyed at having another angsty mage LI.

[crimzontearz]

Being at the centre of a story doesn't neccessitate being the centre of the world for every npc. It helped craft a more meaningful experience for me (my opnion feel free to disagree). It just made the characters seem more like people with individual desires and dreams that did not centre around the IQ, other than whether or not the rifts and Breach were closed.

I played an IQ that flirted with everyone and learned that some of the flirts could honestly have come across as compliments or observations, if they did not have the flirt icon, honestly I would not have know that some of those lines were flirty to be honest.

not the point. It might make it look realistic character wise, to you, wich apparently is something you enjoy....but it's not about that, it's about pleasing as many as possible minimizing the negative impact on others' experiences. Chances are that if Viv had been romanceable or Sera had been bi your experience would NOT have been soured and someone else's could have been better.


Also that is exactly why the heart icon is there