1820 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

I disagree here. Though I wouldn't consider it an insult, and consider myself on their side on certain issues (I'm all for continued and hopefully increased LGBT and female friendly content.) I would hesitate to take being compared to the likes of Sarkeesian, Mackintosh. Wu etc, as a compliment.

 

Wait a second?  Didn't you get initiated into our ranks last week.....?

 

Your point is a good one, though.  There will always be extremes in any charged issue.  The Sarkeesian's are one extreme; just like the extremely conservative "Gamergaters" represent the other extreme.  The problem is that SJW is now being used as an insult to anyone who supports increased LGBT issues, representation of women, etc.  Basically, if you support "liberal" concepts, you are branded an SJW (exactly what happened to you last week) and openly mocked on the forums.  It's exactly the same thing as when people on the 'left' of this argument paint anyone who shows 'conservative' views as a Gamergater, a term that has also lost it's original meaning. 

 

It's ultimately why I don't find offense with that label; because it doesn't actually mean "Sarkeesian level of extreme" anymore.  It simply means someone who supports LGBT and female representation in games.  It's like 'feminist' in that respect.  "Feminist" has now become a four letter word (because it's associated with radical feminists).  But the reality is that I am a feminist because I support equal treatment and opportunities for women. 

 

If SJW only was used against the radical "Sarkessian's" (who, to be honest, makes some solid points - and some not so solid points - but does so in a very ham-fisted, alienating way), then I wouldn't identify as one.  But the everyday use of the term?  Yep, that's me.  And I'm fine with it.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I disagree here. Though I wouldn't consider it an insult, and consider myself on their side on certain issues (I'm all for continued and hopefully increased LGBT and female friendly content.) I would hesitate to take being compared to the likes of Sarkeesian, Mackintosh. Wu etc, as a compliment.

Id really say "sjw" is an insult now, just say women/LGBT people should have better representation & you'll likely get attacked for it, sucks that some people have the mindset of "anybody who doesn't agree that all game content should be given to players like me only is my enemy". Is just silly to get angry about "agendas" just cos gay characters exist or the female characters don't all have supermodel type looks, are plenty of other games to choose from that only cater to straight guys with 0 LGBT representation & a bunch of female characters with supermodel looks & huge boobs almost breaking out of their skimpy outfits

[Cerulione]

Hhhhhhhhhh... This kind of thread will always ensure that someone will get hurt. (It's the Cole in me speaking, please don't mind me )

[Liveshiptrader]

I disagree here. Though I wouldn't consider it an insult, and consider myself on their side on certain issues (I'm all for continued and hopefully increased LGBT and female friendly content.) I would hesitate to take being compared to the likes of Sarkeesian, Mackintosh. Wu etc, as a compliment.

 

It is normally applied to people who

• care more about being social justice than social justice
• is overly hostile to anyone who doesn't agree with them, this doesn't include being hostile to those that where hostile
• pushes there views on others
• conflates certain issues with social justice.

I am not opposed to media for women or gays but I do not think it to be a social justice issue, it's a marketing issue, there's likely to be an increase in male-male pairings in the future and a large part of that is because straight women are a part of that market. It's self-interest in the guise of SJ

[mmoblitz]

For who are tired of "these " type of threads here is a novel idea; Don't read them or at least don't comment on them and keep it going.  Not that hard really and pretty easy to do.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

It is normally applied to people who

• care more about being social justice than social justice
• is overly hostile to anyone who doesn't agree with them, this doesn't include being hostile to those that where hostile
• pushes there views on others
• conflates certain issues with social justice.

Thats how it should be used, against people who just use social issues as an excuse to be incredibly rude & aggressive, unfortunate that its used to attack anyone who doesn't conform to the "straight males deserve all content & representation cos we're the biggest demographic" belief now, say anything different & expect to be mocked & insulted as a "sjw"

[Cerulione]

For who are tired of "these " type of threads here is a novel idea; Don't read them or at least don't comment on them and keep it going.  Not that hard really and pretty easy to do.

 

I'm not saying that I'm tired. I personally think that this kind of thread must exist because this kind of discussion is important. It's just that somehow there are always people who get offended since it's a highly personal for some.

 

I still read most of them tho... & please continue, I really like to see different opinions discussed in polite manners like you're all doing here.

[daveliam]

I am not opposed to media for women or gays but I do not think it to be a social justice issue, it's a marketing issue, there's likely to be an increase in male-male pairings in the future and a large part of that is because straight women are a part of that market. It's self-interest in the guise of SJ

 

It is a SJ issue, in my opinion.  It is a great example of how m/m content continues to be ignored (or played as a joke) by the industry.  Bioware is the only company that writes scripted romance stories for gay males.  That's absolutely a social justice issue to me.  Is it on the same level as sodomy laws?  Of course not, but it does show how underrepresented gay males continue to be in this industry.  Again, Bioware is the only company doing this and they are being attacked for "forcing the agenda down people's throats".  One company out of, literally, thousands (and they only make up a small percentage of the total romance stories within Bioware games too; it's not like Bioware only or even mostly makes s/s content) and it's being represented in this way by opponents.  That's a social justice issue.

[Br3admax]

I disagree here. Though I wouldn't consider it an insult, and consider myself on their side on certain issues (I'm all for continued and hopefully increased LGBT and female friendly content.) I would hesitate to take being compared to the likes of Sarkeesian, Mackintosh. Wu etc, as a compliment.

Agreed. Some people seem to think being in favor of social justice is what makes one a SJW. It isn't.

[AlexiaRevan]

It is a SJ issue, in my opinion.  It is a great example of how m/m content continues to be ignored (or played as a joke) by the industry.  Bioware is the only company that writes scripted romance stories for gay males.  That's absolutely a social justice issue to me.  Is it on the same level as sodomy laws?  Of course not, but it does show how underrepresented gay males continue to be in this industry.  Again, Bioware is the only company doing this and they are being attacked for "forcing the agenda down people's throats".  One company out of, literally, thousands and it's being represented in this way by opponents.  That's a social justice issue.

Same for Lesbian content...

[daveliam]

Same for Lesbian content...

 

Of course.  I was referring to m/m content because that's specifically what the poster who I quoted was talking about.  F/F content is a bit more prevalent than m/m content, but it falls to a very different concern, which is f/f content geared to male audiences (versus f/f content geared to lesbian audiences). 

[AlexiaRevan]

Yeah I know..was just saying its the same on my side is all 

[mmoblitz]

I'm not saying that I'm tired. I personally think that this kind of thread must exist because this kind of discussion is important. It's just that somehow there are always people who get offended since it's a highly personal for some.

 

I still read most of them tho... & please continue, I really like to see different opinions discussed in polite manners like you're all doing here.

My post wasn't directed at you, but to a few who have commented on this thread several times saying each time how they are tired of these threads.  Just doesn't make any sense to me as to why they keep it going..lol

 

I agree with you.  Nothing wrong with healthy debate.  My only comment about the thread in general is, give the same choices for all or don't bother with adding romance in.  If you do that, then you are more likely to avoid fracturing community further.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Of course.  I was referring to m/m content because that's specifically what the poster who I quoted was talking about.  F/F content is a bit more prevalent than m/m content, but it falls to a very different concern, which is f/f content geared to male audiences (versus f/f content geared to lesbian audiences).

Thats an annoying double standard, "M/M are horrible & shouldn't be in game but F/F is ok cos lesbians are hot" made worse by how F/F scenes are so often made with straight males in mind

[Liveshiptrader]

It is a SJ issue, in my opinion.  It is a great example of how m/m content continues to be ignored (or played as a joke) by the industry.  Bioware is the only company that writes scripted romance stories for gay males.  That's absolutely a social justice issue to me.  Is it on the same level as sodomy laws?  Of course not, but it does show how underrepresented gay males continue to be in this industry.  Again, Bioware is the only company doing this and they are being attacked for "forcing the agenda down people's throats".  One company out of, literally, thousands (and they only make up a small percentage of the total romance stories within Bioware games too; it's not like Bioware only or even mostly makes s/s content) and it's being represented in this way by opponents.  That's a social justice issue.

 

Bioware is one of the few western games companies that does scripted romances at all, most of those other thousands don't or at best it's an afterthought. 

 

and I don't think what people want to write is an actual social justice issue, it should only be about self-interest in the writers and/or the buyers, just because the content you heavily favour isn't in the games you like doesn't mean that there is some great worldly injustice, a social injustice cannot be something no one is owed.

 

Being attacked for these changes is wrong but being criticized for changes is not

[Iakus]

I'm just going to point out (again) that aside from the two extra romances (Solas and Cullen) that were made with the extra year of development, everyone got the same amount of romance options: 2/2/2

 

No one was "limited" and no one (aside, perhaps, for straight female humans and elves) were favored in the romance department of this game

[billpickles]

Straight male here...not at all bothered by the perceived imbalance of the romance options.  Y'all should seriously chillax about this issue.

 

Writers should remain true to their vision of the character and their place within the story rather than worry about balancing romance options or satisfying every single member of the playerbase all the time.  If you want to experience a particular romance, you can always roll another character.  You know that multiple playthroughs is an option, right?  And just because you happen to be a gay/bi/straight male/female doesn't mean every single character your roll must share that exact same perspective.  It is called "role-playing" after all.  Might even be good for you to try on another perspective once in awhile.

 

Besides...Cassandra is awesome and no other straight male option is even needed.  Everything about her is fantastic, and I wouldn't give her up for a hundred playersexual hussies.

[Maverick827]

It is a SJ issue, in my opinion.  It is a great example of how m/m content continues to be ignored (or played as a joke) by the industry.  Bioware is the only company that writes scripted romance stories for gay males.  That's absolutely a social justice issue to me.  Is it on the same level as sodomy laws?  Of course not, but it does show how underrepresented gay males continue to be in this industry.  Again, Bioware is the only company doing this and they are being attacked for "forcing the agenda down people's throats".  One company out of, literally, thousands (and they only make up a small percentage of the total romance stories within Bioware games too; it's not like Bioware only or even mostly makes s/s content) and it's being represented in this way by opponents.  That's a social justice issue.

Shouldn't there be a distinction made between meeting consumer demands and discrimination?

[daveliam]

Bioware is one of the few western games companies that does scripted romances at all, most of those other thousands don't or at best it's an afterthought. 

 

and I don't think what people want to write is an actual social justice issue, it should only be about self-interest in the writers and/or the buyers, just because the content you heavily favour isn't in the games you like doesn't mean that there is some great worldly injustice, a social injustice cannot be something no one is owed.

 

Being attacked for these changes is wrong but being criticized for changes is not

 

I bet that you and I could brainstorm about 500-1000 examples of straight relationships that have been written for video games.  I bet that you and I could brainstorm about 20-40 gay relationships that have been written for video games.  I'm not just talking about romances that you can participate in through RPing.  I'm talking about romantic content (i.e. relationships) between two people of the same sex.  If we are just talking about RPing romance content, then Bioware is certainly the only one doing scripted romances (as opposed to the Sims, Fable, Skyrim approach) and even then they've only included m/m content in 5 games out of 12 that have romances (6 if you want to add the newly added DLC only NPC in the newest SWTOR expansion -- three years later). 

 

It's very easy to dismiss and/or minimize other people's concerns when it doesn't effect you.  If people are telling you that there is a lack of representation in a medium and that lack of representation contributes to larger social issues that continue to marginalize that group, it's worth exploring it and not dismissing it outright.  Is it the only contributing factor?  No.  Is it the most prevalent contributing factor?  No.  Is it one contributing factor that can be addressed?  Yes, so why is it wrong to ask for it to be addressed? 

 

Shouldn't there be a distinction made between meeting consumer demands and discrimination?

 

Absolutely, but when consumer demands are influenced by discrimination, it needs to be addressed.

 

Think of it this way:  By not including content for "other" groups (i.e LGBT and/or female audiences, in this case), you create a product that is intended for the "majority" (i.e. straight males in this case).  Is it really fair to then turn around say, "Well, it's mostly straight males that play the games, so we're just giving them content for 'them'"?  It's a circular argument.  Straight men buys the games because they are marketed for them so that makes straight men the 'consumer base', so we market to them.

 

There's pretty solid evidence that, when marketed to, the "other groups" are just as willing to spend their money on the product.  It's not a binary.  You can market to multiple audiences.  I suspect that if developers continued to create content meant to speak to "other groups", those groups would increase in the consumer base.  And I'm not suggesting that LGBT players will ever equal straight players in their numbers, but they are certainly a largely ignored market that, with a little more attention, can bring in more money to the industry.  For me, I am happy with the two options that I have in DA: I.  I'm not asking for more.  But even this amount, which is the bare minimum needed to give us choice in our ROLE-PLAYING game, is attacked as being "shoved down people's throats" and "pandering" and "over-politicizing games".  That's where I start to get frustrated.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Some people have sore throats after having so many agendas shoved down them

[Farangbaa]

People, stahp... I'll be out of likes soon.

[Basement Cat]

Some people have sore throats after having so many agendas shoved down them

Perhaps this would help?

[daveliam]

Some people have sore throats after having so many agendas shoved down them

 

The best thing I ever learned was to relax my throat muscles and breathe through my nose.......from agendas.....yeah, that's totally what I meant.......

[SlottsMachine]

Perhaps this would help?

 

WTF. I don't know how many times someone has linked to that. Just stahp. Haha. Also, 55 gallons.... 

[tklivory]

WTF. I don't know how many times someone has linked to that. Just stahp. Haha. Also, 55 gallons.... 

 

But it's George Takei approved!