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#551
Panda

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Thank you for the in depth reply  :).  Interesting that you gave Catwoman and Isabela as examples of women you don't consider to be sexualised, they were honestly some of the first characters to pop into my head that are definitely overtly sexualised in my opinion.

 

I disagree that it actively takes away from characters though, and think it sometimes actually adds to the characterization. Why do you think it takes away from that?

 

Well Catwoman sure does have some cases I would say that she's made too fanservicey or sexualised (like her movie with the leather bra) but in the current run of her comic that I read I don't think it's like that. I think some sexiness fits perfectly for her and Isabela's character since they are confident and aware about that, and they simply love sex. I find it similarly as with Zevran and Iron Bull, I think they are sexy but not sexualised.

 

I think it takes away when every female character needs to be sexy or more precisely every important and good-looking female character. There should be more diversity within them too and I think one reason why some are protesting against Bioware's female LI's is because they are trying to make that diversity, more than some straight males want to take.

 

I also think sexy doesn't mean sexualised. Sexualised is intended camera angles, revealing unpractical outfits that doesn't fit to environment nor character, situations where female character is in situation or scene where her sexual appeal is used for fanservice purposes only (like shower scene).

 

Of cource I'm not saying there shouldn't be any fanservice either but then it would be nice if it was more equal. And I'm not saying either that all games should change, there is some games that are made for male audience and some for female audience and I think it's okay as well but I think majority should be inclusive and if devs want to be taken seriously by female gamers they should focus on writing better female characters.



#552
daveliam

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Well Catwoman sure does have some cases I would say that she's made too fanservicey or sexualised (like her movie with the leather bra) but in the current run of her comic that I read I don't think it's like that. I think some sexiness fits perfectly for her and Isabela's character since they are confident and aware about that, and they simply love sex. I find it similarly as with Zevran and Iron Bull, I think they are sexy but not sexualised.

 

I think it takes away when every female character needs to be sexy or more precisely every important and good-looking female character. There should be more diversity within them too and I think one reason why some are protesting against Bioware's female LI's is because they are trying to make that diversity, more than some straight males want to take.

 

I also think sexy doesn't mean sexualised. Sexualised is intended camera angles, revealing unpractical outfits that doesn't fit to environment nor character, situations where female character is in situation or scene where her sexual appeal is used for fanservice purposes only (like shower scene).

 

Of cource I'm not saying there shouldn't be any fanservice either but then it would be nice if it was more equal. And I'm not saying either that all games should change, there is some games that are made for male audience and some for female audience and I think it's okay as well but I think majority should be inclusive and if devs want to be taken seriously by female gamers they should focus on writing better female characters.

 

Right.  I think the best examples of sexualization of females in recent Bioware games is in ME 2.  You have Miranda in a catsuit being framed in conversations so that you can literally only see her ass.  You have Samara with some of the craziest cleavage-bearing "armor" in the series.  You have Jack who wears two thin strips of fabric as a top.  And you have Kelly who's most notable "plot points" are feeding your fish and doing a strip tease for you.

 

It's not that they aren't also well developed characters too (Samara is my favorite character in the game).  It's that the sexualization is really prominent and serves no real purpose (maybe it does with Jack and Miranda to an extent).  Then you look at the other major female characters and you have.....Tali and Kasumi.  That's pretty much it.  It just skews towards sexualized ladies. 


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#553
I present Chuck Bass

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People like to assume that because these mobile games are made pink and with cute, childish characters that it must only be women playing them and that these games are what the majority of women play. The person I met who played the most candy crush was a 50 year old man. I used to wear a necklace at work that was the symbol of the empire from TES and the female customers were the only ones who recognized it or at least commented on it. Male gamers often wonder "why don't more women play video games?" There are two answers to that which tie into each other:

1) There are more than you think but they keep more to themselves and their female friends, play male characters in MMO's so they don't get hit on, often buying games as digital downloads, through Amazon, or from grocery stores rather than game stores because:

2) Gaming culture tends to be unwelcoming and often downright hostile towards women. When I was a child, my game purchases weren't questioned but as an adult, every time I went into a gamestop or similar I'd get either hit on, treated like an idiot who must be buying whatever game for their appropriate male friend or relative, or just met with hostility along the lines of "you're not a true gamer, you're probably playing this to impress a man" or giving me the third degree and asking all sorts of questions (in a hostile tone) as if to disprove my lies. I stopped going to game stores all together some years back and couldn't be happier. Now that's just the fan culture. The industry itself does little to make women feel welcome. Women are featured as protagonists in comparatively few games and those games are generally given a smaller budget and advertising budget. Not only that, but a huge portion of those female protagonists are overtly sexualized and obviously designed for the male player's gaze than the female player to identify with. Female supporting characters are often relegated to the role of the love interest/daughter/mother/sister/background eye candy for the male hero and aren't given nearly as much skills or character development as their male counterparts.

I've been playing video games since I was a small child in the '80s and back then it was ok for both genders to play as long as you were a kid. I've found tons of games throughout the years that I've loved and spent hundreds of hours in, playing multiple times (a lot of those came from BioWare) but if I hadn't already been a part of this world, I doubt I would start gaming now. Even the games that have awesome female characters and protagonists (or a choice in gender) are often marketed to make you think there is a set generic scruffy white straight male hero and that the game is all meaty explosions and metal music even when the game has depth, character customization, roleplaying, choice, etc...(BioWare often markets their own games like this).

I don't pretend to know everything and every study, personally in my life the girls who I am friends with really like a variety of mobile games, for example my gf. Most of the guys I know play either on a console or on the PC, and might only have Simpsons tapped out and plague inc on their phone. However, one thing I do know, through just a simple observation, was that when I had this discussion back in 2009, roughly around the time mobile games started to take off.....studies showed around 30 percent of the gamers were female. Now they are nearing half. Again this isn't conclusive, but it counts for something and could very well support a claim that a solid chunk of female gamers indeed are mobile gamers.

...which was my point...

#554
PreciousPisces

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That's pretty much what I meant, everyone gets 4, human females get 5, elven females get 6, because Solas and Cullen are racists. =P

Solas, probably. But Cullen? Maybe not. I think the game is just adding some real-life situations by having him only attracted to humans and elves. Not everyone is attracted to the same thing. Cullen just isn't attracted to dwarves or Qunari. They just aren't his thing. It's part of his character. Sucks for sure though. My current playthrough is a female Qunari and I really didn't want to get with Iron Bull just because he's also Qunari. So I'm romancing Blackwall. 



#555
Ryzaki

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Solas, probably. But Cullen? Maybe not. I think the game is just adding some real-life situations by having him only attracted to humans and elves. Not everyone is attracted to the same thing. Cullen just isn't attracted to dwarves or Qunari. They just aren't his thing. It's part of his character. Sucks for sure though. My current playthrough is a female Qunari and I really didn't want to get with Iron Bull just because he's also Qunari. So I'm romancing Blackwall. 

 

Uh...no?

 

Cullen's gate is due to running out of time for his cinematic.



#556
TevinterSupremacist

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For me, personally, non-sexualised is the default option, yes, because sexualisation can so often be done in a dehumanising way.  Most people are inherently sexual, but I would say most of us are also not sexual 24/7, or even most of the time.  If I'm going to the grocery store, or at work in an office, or doing my laundry, I'm not doing anything sexual and I'm not presenting myself in a sexual way. Being portrayed in a sexualised manner at all times would be reducing me to, well, parts, to how I please (or fail to please) someone outside looking at me, rather than seeing me as a full person who is sometimes sexual, but has other facets and things to offer.  My default state in life is not 'look at me, I am a sexually available trophy for a worthy man to claim'.

 

So when female characters are sexualised for no reason and with no explanation, that can be jarring and a little bit dehumanising to find in games or other media, personally.  And, as I said upthread, it takes me out of the game because it reminds me that I'm not really expected to be playing, I guess, like a little voice in my head saying 'weirdo, this is a boy's game, what are you doing here?'  It doesn't send me running tearfully for my fainting couch or anything, but it's annoying, and repeated instances of that add up over the years (because we humans are nothing if not good at finding patterns, even when there aren't any, sometimes.)

 

Sexy for me is much more subjective than sexualised, because people find all kinds of different things sexy, even things that aren't obviously sexual, if that makes sense.  But that is just personal semantics on my part, I guess.

A sexy/sexualised character design doesn't mean the character is "presenting him/herself" as sexually available all the time. Unless you suppose that certain attires are a sexual call, but I find that a very bad territory to enter.

Even so, keep in mind character designs don't change in game, they're usually static. The comparison between humans and characters with regard to how they act/present themselves differently in different situations , especially if we focus on appearance/clothe-design and not behaviour, is moot. Also, sex appeal and "trophyfication" are two different things.

Unless you remember it's a game, so everything is a trophy, in the sense that it's here to please the player.

 

The "aimed at boys" is very sex-essentialistic and wrong, unless you don't think what can be sexy to boys can't also be sexy to girls. And there's nothing wrong with titillation as entertainment, it can be quite entertaining. Also, a design that might appear overly sexualised to you, can simply be over-the-top/cool/fun to someone else. That's perfectly ok, you're not obligated to like anything you don't want to, but what you can/can't find relatable/non-jarring is merely an indication of your tastes, not that there's something questionable in the content.

 

The point for that is, that both sexy and sexualised are subjective. What I consider sexy you could find sexualised and vice versa. I personally find, some people use sexualised as a term to "attack" something that they don't like and has sex appeal. I haven't found a convincing difference between sexy and sexualised so far.

 

It's a vast topic, we can expand, but I feel we'll ultimately end up disagreeing.



#557
Nefla

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On the point of female protagonists being overtly sexualised and aiming for the male players gaze instead of for women to identify with them. Why can't it be both? Can women not identify with women that are designed to apeal to guys? If we're arguing for inclusivity then female characters appealing to men shouldn't be a problem. As long as being sexualised isn't the only thing a character has going for them and they have a personality then I don't see how somebody wouldn't be able to relate.

 

I'm not seeing a problem here. Many male protagonists are sexualised as well, even though it will kill some people to admit it. It isn't JUST a male power fantasy, characters like Nathan Drake, Joel, and legions of cutesy jrpg guys have a massive female following, not to mention the hunks from the Bioware titles.

 

And for people that DO consider this to be a genuine problem, how would you go about rectifying it? Obviously you cannot make female protagonists ugly, as there will be just as many complaints, you can't give them personality defects either, for reasons I explained in my last post. How do you make a female character that appeases most if not all women gamers whilst making straight guys not want to bang her? It seems impossible right? Much easier to create a stubbled guy who doesn't have everything about them dissected and turned into some ideological argument.

The problem isn't the existence of sexualized women in video games, the problem is that those kind of women are an overwhelming portion of female game characters. Just in case we're not on the same page here, when I say sexualized I don't mean "a woman who is pretty" I mean a woman who has unrealistic proportions (12 inch waist, gravity defying boobs 3 times bigger than her head, etc...), wears extremely skimpy clothes in inappropriate situations (ex the dreaded battle bikini on a woman vs a man in real armor). That type of female character is created as an object of desire for male players and characters. I'm not an object and I can't identify with an object. I've never seen a male protagonist sexualized the way many female game characters are, if they were you'd see a lot of male heroes walking around wearing this in battle:

Spoiler

 

My solution is an easy one: treat female characters the way you treat male characters. Have some attractive but some not. Have some old, young, fat, skinny, nerdy, punk-ish, no nonsense warrior-like, frilly and girly, etc...give female characters the variety that male characters have, give them the variety that real people have and don't just do it through clothing. I'm tired of seeing the female version of a profession look like they came straight out of a Halloween shop :http://www.yandy.com...ry_19.asp?P=all while male versions look like the people who do those jobs in real life. A female character can be beautiful but still be a legit character who is designed as a person first and is someone you'd take seriously. I think Lara Croft from the recent tomb raider iteration is a good example. She's a pretty girl and still very feminine but she's not sexualized.


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#558
Laurelinde

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A sexy/sexualised character design doesn't mean the character is "presenting him/herself" as sexually available all the time. Unless you suppose that certain attires are a sexual call, but I find that a very bad territory to enter.

Even so, keep in mind character designs don't change in game, they're usually static. The comparison between humans and characters with regard to how they act/present themselves differently in different situations , especially if we focus on appearance/clothe-design and not behaviour, is moot. Also, sex appeal and "trophyfication" are two different things.

Unless you remember it's a game, so everything is a trophy, in the sense that it's here to please the player.

 

The "aimed at boys" is very sex-essentialistic and wrong, unless you don't think what can be sexy to boys can't also be sexy to girls. And there's nothing wrong with titillation as entertainment, it can be quite entertaining. Also, a design that might appear overly sexualised to you, can simply be over-the-top/cool/fun to someone else. That's perfectly ok, you're not obligated to like anything you don't want to, but what you can/can't find relatable/non-jarring is merely an indication of your tastes, not that there's something questionable in the content.

 

The point for that is, that both sexy and sexualised are subjective. What I consider sexy you could find sexualised and vice versa. I personally find, some people use sexualised as a term to "attack" something that they don't like and has sex appeal. I haven't found a convincing difference between sexy and sexualised so far.

 

It's a vast topic, we can expand, but I feel we'll ultimately end up disagreeing.

 

I think where a character and a person differ in terms of sexual presentation is that a person has agency over what they are doing and a character doesn't.  If s/he is being presented in a sexual way, there is a person or persons deliberately designing them that way behind the scenes.  With a real person, they can choose to sort of turn their sexuality on or off, to so speak, in the sense of whether they are trying to behave sexually at any given time.  The lines are much less clear with a character whose every word and motion is by definition not their own.  I wouldn't say it's a moot comparison, but I think all of that is worth bearing in mind.

 

I do not say 'aimed at boys' to be gender essentialist.  I fully expect that some women also enjoy such depictions.  In general, however, sexualised depictions of women are not aimed at lesbians or bisexual women, they are aimed at men, and the people utilising them will freely acknowledge this.  As I understand it, what 'reads' as sexy and appealing to lesbian women is not always the same as what reads as sexy and appealing to men (for example, you will sometimes see lingerie ads or the like with two women in bed together, but I have read articles about how this kind of 'performative lesbianism' is not really what interests or appeals to real lesbians (and actually they can find it kind of frustrating to have their sexual orientation played up as titillation for straight men rather than something that is authentic.)

 

In terms of titillation as entertainment, there is a space for that in the world, sure.  I just don't think that space should be 'most or all games', and I think people like Bioware are good to have in the industry because they go out of their way to provide characters designed to appeal to a lot of different groups.  Fanservice is fine, but spread it around to everyone, and don't use it as a crutch in place of other ways to hook people into a game, like good writing, clever puzzles, inventive mechanics, etc.

 

I also think that any benefit people might get from titillation (or anything else) needs to be balanced against possible harm it could do.  I could tell a really offensive joke about, I don't know, dead babies which would get a laugh from some people and thereby make me feel amused and satisfied.  I would say it's not really worth it though, if doing so would seriously upset people listening - in front of one of my friends who actually did lose a child to brain cancer, for example.  My few seconds of laughter is not worth the price of their pain.  Likewise, I think that a lot of games would not really suffer from reducing the titillation factor, and would gain from expanding the potential audience and not alienating any players who will feel demeaned by it.  That's even without touching how even small measures of information, like memes, all shape culture and attitudes as well as reflecting them; so by trying to be more inclusive in media, we can help (slowly!) make the world that little bit more inclusive by normalising ideas.

 

I have not and would not claim that anything or everything I personally dislike is morally or inherently questionable.  I would counter that assuming that everything you or I like or enjoy is inherently above reproach, either.  It's ok to like things that are not perfect, and to acknowledge their problems while still enjoying them.  I'm struggling to word the other point I want to make here, but basically, a lot of the things that people find objectionable in games are things they also find objectionable in meatspace.  So pushing back against them in games is not just some kind of petty anti-game agenda, it's pointing out an example of ideas that can be or are harmful in a real way, and saying, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  I think it's worth taking those kinds of criticism into account - not just swallowing every random critique every random person has at face value and then self-flagellating, but consider it, weigh it up, be mindful of it in the future.

 

As far as sexualised vs sexy goes, I don't find sexualised to be as much of a subjective term.  I think it's usually pretty clear when a character has intentionally been sexualised - for a start, their creators normally will acknowledge it one way or another, that physical appeal to a certain subset of the population/demographic was considered.  (Or in the case of my Baldur's Gate example, it was just self-evident; the tavern woman's physique was rendered completely differently to the female player character model I was using, and the camera angles and gratuitous bouncing made it overkill.  Man that was nuts.  :lol: )

 

Anyway as you say, there is not likely to be any kind of agreement on this, and I need to go to bed in any case.  Hope everyone enjoys the rest of their day.


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#559
crimzontearz

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Uhmmmmm


Yeah


A potential LI that us "well written" but has zero charge or sexual tension because "the writers know better what you should like" is just as guilty of poor writing as overly sexualized one for the sake of appeal

Just saying


At least there are no Jack and Miranda here


Then again....the DA team would have been silly falling in that trap after ME2&3

#560
Nefla

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I don't pretend to know everything and every study, personally in my life the girls who I am friends with really like a variety of mobile games, for example my gf. Most of the guys I know play either on a console or on the PC, and might only have Simpsons tapped out and plague inc on their phone. However, one thing I do know, through just a simple observation, was that when I had this discussion back in 2009, roughly around the time mobile games started to take off.....studies showed around 30 percent of the gamers were female. Now they are nearing half. Again this isn't conclusive, but it counts for something and could very well support a claim that a solid chunk of female gamers indeed are mobile gamers.

...which was my point...

I never said there weren't a lot of female mobile gamers, but when people look at the statistics that show a 40/60 split of female to male gamers (or something like that) the assumption is that most of that 40% of female players must be playing angry birds while none of the 60% of male players do the same. Your experience is your experience, mine is mine and it's the opposite of yours. Most of the girls I know who play games play RPGs (and JRPGs) while most of the guys I know who play games are the ones constantly sending me invites for whatever the newest facebook game is and the ones who play the longer games that I like (such as BW games) don't ever finish them, don't know any of the characters names, etc...  

 

And like I said, if the industry were more welcoming to women I definitely think those numbers would even out. It's not like most tv watchers are men or most book readers are men or most movie watchers, music listeners, etc...because none of those things have such a hostile and possessive subculture and an industry so afraid of even slightly displeasing one demographic.


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#561
TevinterSupremacist

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I think where a character and a person differ in terms of sexual presentation is that a person has agency over what they are doing and a character doesn't.

 

I do not say 'aimed at boys' to be gender essentialist.  I fully expect that some women also enjoy such depictions.  In general, however, sexualised depictions of women are not aimed at lesbians or bisexual women, they are aimed at men, and the people utilising them will freely acknowledge this.

 

In terms of titillation as entertainment, there is a space for that in the world, sure.  I just don't think that space should be 'most or all games',

 

I also think that any benefit people might get from titillation (or anything else) needs to be balanced against possible harm it could do.  I could tell a really offensive joke about, I don't know, dead babies which would get a laugh from some people and thereby make me feel amused and satisfied.  I  That's even without touching how even small measures of information, like memes, all shape culture and attitudes as well as reflecting them; so by trying to be more inclusive in media, we can help (slowly!) make the world that little bit more inclusive by normalising ideas.

 

I have not and would not claim that anything or everything I personally dislike is morally or inherently questionable.  I would counter that assuming that everything you or I like or enjoy is inherently above reproach, either.

 

As far as sexualised vs sexy goes, I don't find sexualised to be as much of a subjective term.  I think it's usually pretty clear when a character has intentionally been sexualised - for a start, their creators normally will acknowledge it one way or another, that physical appeal to a certain subset of the population/demographic was considered. 

 

Anyway as you say, there is not likely to be any kind of agreement on this, and I need to go to bed in any case.  Hope everyone enjoys the rest of their day.

No character has ever agency, in the sense they're made up by their creators. If you think like that, non-agency is a given an inescapable, so why bother? If you assume characters do have agency, then the sexy outfit can be just as much part of the character's agency as the non-sexy one.

 

It doesn't matter what's in the mind of the creator. Aside from the fact that we can't know for sure, a product is a standalone object. Regardless of whom it was designed for, it can appeal to anybody for different reasons. As for your "in general", yeah, I don't think this enough to reach a conclusion. It's an assumption and a generalisiation.

 

Disagreement in aesthetics, won't bother analysing it :P .

 

Yeah, no. It depends on what you want to achieve. Yeah, I won't risk saying a joke that I might hurt someone I don't want to hurt, but that's my choice. "Not being hurt by a joke someone said" isn't within people's rights, so I don't mind it when it happens. As for your second part, I haven't seen any research proving any lasting effects of video games on psychology, so I'll remain skeptical.

 

Of course, provided proof is provided on whether something has in fact problematic elements or not. See above.

 

Physical appeal also comes in play for sexy. Someone might have designed with it being sexy in mind. Either for the creator him/herself or for the audience. How's that different for sexualised? Again, not touching whether something ought to be judged soloely on itself, regardless of the creator's intentions. Which I think is the mature stance, I mean if someone made something that was, let's say, racist, but it wasn't his/her intention, we'd still call it racist and rightfully so. Intention doesn't matter if something eds up being racist, therefore intention wasn't the reason it was racist. It was the content. Same should go for any attribute, like sexy/sexualised, etc.

 

And yeah, it's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally late :P



#562
daveliam

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(Or in the case of my Baldur's Gate example, it was just self-evident; the tavern woman's physique was rendered completely differently to the female player character model I was using, and the camera angles and gratuitous bouncing made it overkill.  Man that was nuts.  :lol: )

 

You mean her.....?  ;)

 

hqdefault.jpg



#563
vertigomez

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I never noticed this.

Thank you for opening my eyes.

#564
Hanako Ikezawa

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Right.  I think the best examples of sexualization of females in recent Bioware games is in ME 2.  You have Miranda in a catsuit being framed in conversations so that you can literally only see her ass.  You have Samara with some of the craziest cleavage-bearing "armor" in the series.  You have Jack who wears two thin strips of fabric as a top.  And you have Kelly who's most notable "plot points" are feeding your fish and doing a strip tease for you.

 

It's not that they aren't also well developed characters too (Samara is my favorite character in the game).  It's that the sexualization is really prominent and serves no real purpose (maybe it does with Jack and Miranda to an extent).  Then you look at the other major female characters and you have.....Tali and Kasumi.  That's pretty much it.  It just skews towards sexualized ladies. 

Well, I actually think I have the explanation for the sexualization of Jack and Miranda. For Jack, it isn't so much sexualizing her as the only way to show off her tattoos and thus show the player a physical evidence of Jack's past. For Miranda, it is the fact that she knows she was built to be perfect and thus uses that to gain the upper hand in situations by having the other person be distracted. 



#565
dragonflight288

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Yeah but the number of girl gamers increased largely because of mobile gaming. My girlfriend is now considered a gaming girl...yet she is far from it hahah. The numbers are often tricky and misleading.Unless you of course count mobile gaming as true gaming, then my point is trivial.

 

Hahaha, true. 

 

I consider anyone a gamer who plays a lot of games, no matter the genre. Console games, RPGS, first person shooters. 

 

Now a serious gamer, someone who devotes time to big name titles, becomes a huge fan of a particular genre or company and have a tendency to get on the forums and debate to their hearts content or discontent, is another issue entirely.  :lol:


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#566
Nefla

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Well, I actually think I have the explanation for the sexualization of Jack and Miranda. For Jack, it isn't so much sexualizing her as the only way to show off her tattoos and thus show the player a physical evidence of Jack's past. For Miranda, it is the fact that she knows she was built to be perfect and thus uses that to gain the upper hand in situations by having the other person be distracted. 

I agree about Jack, but there's no story reason for the camera to zoom in on Miranda's ass all the time, and if she's trying to get the upper hand on Collectors by wearing a skintight fabric catsuit that rides up her crack instead of armor then she's an idiot (which she's clearly not) if she'd worn skimpy clothes on the ship or the Citadel or other non combat areas and armor on all the combat missions then it would be more fitting. As it was, Miranda's treatment was cringeworthy and undermined her character. I was literally rolling my eyes almost every time she was on screen. 


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#567
Panda

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Uhmmmmm


Yeah


A potential LI that us "well written" but has zero charge or sexual tension because "the writers know better what you should like" is just as guilty of poor writing as overly sexualized one for the sake of appeal

Just saying


At least there are no Jack and Miranda here


Then again....the DA team would have been silly falling in that trap after ME2&3

 

I think Cassandra and Josephine can still be sexy. I mean you have romance scenes where Cassandra is at least is naked, if that's not sexy in terms of romance idk what is ^^; I still find her normal appearance sexy as well.

 

Either of girls just aren't being sexualised. Cassandra is tough warrior woman who kicks ass, if she was sexualised she would have boob window, steel bikini or sth similar and that would be away from her character I think. It wouldn't fit her job nor personality, I mean you don't see Cullen with sexy armors either that don't make sense to environment. Josephine is noble woman from Antiva who is still innocent about sexual stuff, making her wear revealing outfit would be against her character.

 

So I think Cassandra and Josie are sexy when there is time to be sexy ^^ Of cource people can find them attractive all the time as well but they for sure aren't sexualised.


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#568
Hanako Ikezawa

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I agree about Jack, but there's no story reason for the camera to zoom in on Miranda's ass all the time, and if she's trying to get the upper hand on Collectors by wearing a skintight fabric catsuit that rides up her crack instead of armor then she's an idiot (which she's clearly not) if she'd worn skimpy clothes on the ship or the Citadel or other non combat areas and armor on all the combat missions then it would be more fitting. As it was, Miranda's treatment was cringeworthy and undermined her character. I was literally rolling my eyes almost every time she was on screen. 

Oh,I'm not saying that is why they have the camera angles the way they do. I'm just talking about an inlore reason for her attire. She is a woman who likes to have the upper hand on others, and knows the fact her body was made to be 'perfect' is a tool she can use to utilize that. Her wearing it in combat situations I think was more just a downside of the system lacking equipable armor for companions and stuck with only the outfit they wear that DA2 and ME2 had. Something I'm glad they fixed in the sequels by giving companions different armor lookks. Even in DLC they gave her an actual set of armor. 



#569
Kulyok

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Am I the only girl who misses Ass Effect, Miranda's backside shots, Jack's old outfit and Samara's cleavage? Okay, I romanced Garrus, so appearance doesn't matter to me that much, when it comes to romance interests(even though I think he looked better before the rocket missile. ahem). Still, eye candy is eye candy, and Kasumi's outfit was pretty sexy, too.

 

As for DAI, maybe I lack appreciation for Antivan fashion, but I still think Josephine's outfit was horrendous, and they should've made Vivienne romanceable and given her a normal haircut.



#570
Panda

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Am I the only girl who misses Ass Effect, Miranda's backside shots, Jack's old outfit and Samara's cleavage? Okay, I romanced Garrus, so appearance doesn't matter to me that much, when it comes to romance interests(even though I think he looked better before the rocket missile. ahem). Still, eye candy is eye candy, and Kasumi's outfit was pretty sexy, too.

 

As for DAI, maybe I lack appreciation for Antivan fashion, but I still think Josephine's outfit was horrendous, and they should've made Vivienne romanceable and given her a normal haircut.

 

I'd say that you are in minority at least. Eye-candy is nice but I think there is right and wrong places for it and I'd like this eye-candy being more equal then. I don't think Samara's outfit nor her boobs that don't look very natural are right way to have eye-candy. It doesn't fit her character. Miranda I can get oufits wise, buttshots are just immature in the context they were used, I find Jack's ME3 outfit better still, having leather strips squeezing your boobs much be very uncomfortable. I mean there really isn't any situation where woman would wear that and I don't think it fits to environment either.

 

I think the problem comes if female characters have to be sexy by default when male characters not really, they have more space to be different from each other. If the treatment of female characters is different than male characters in the series it gives certain message to players and that message isn't positive. It also gives message to female players which is pretty much: This isn't made for you, get out ^^

 

I mean I can tolerate playing games that are clearly aimed for straight male gamers and have eye-candy for them especially in places it doesn't fit but it makes me cringe a lot. When it goes in overboard like in Witcher it makes me uncomfortable.


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#571
crimzontearz

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I think Cassandra and Josephine can still be sexy. I mean you have romance scenes where Cassandra is at least is naked, if that's not sexy in terms of romance idk what is ^^; I still find her normal appearance sexy as well.

Either of girls just aren't being sexualised. Cassandra is tough warrior woman who kicks ass, if she was sexualised she would have boob window, steel bikini or sth similar and that would be away from her character I think. It wouldn't fit her job nor personality, I mean you don't see Cullen with sexy armors either that don't make sense to environment. Josephine is noble woman from Antiva who is still innocent about sexual stuff, making her wear revealing outfit would be against her character.

So I think Cassandra and Josie are sexy when there is time to be sexy ^^ Of cource people can find them attractive all the time as well but they for sure aren't sexualised.

Cass is OK. There is sexual tension, there is teasing....I just preferred Josie emotionally. BUT Josie lacked that tension....if she panned out a bit more like Tali or Liara who were innocent/virginal but did demonstrate a certain passion (to use a word bull likes so) it would have been perfect.


Not to say it is not implied she might have it. It is just never shown because Bioware thought they knew best
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#572
Panda

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Cass is OK. There is sexual tension, there is teasing....I just preferred Josie emotionally. BUT Josie lacked that tension....if she panned out a bit more like Tali or Liara who were innocent/virginal but did demonstrate a certain passion (to use a word bull likes so) it would have been perfect.


Not to say it is not implied she might have it. It is just never shown because Bioware thought they knew best

 

Ah you meant this. Hmm yea from what other players have seen it seems like Josie's romance is too plain or boring to many though there is still people who enjoy it as well.



#573
I present Chuck Bass

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I never said there weren't a lot of female mobile gamers, but when people look at the statistics that show a 40/60 split of female to male gamers (or something like that) the assumption is that most of that 40% of female players must be playing angry birds while none of the 60% of male players do the same. Your experience is your experience, mine is mine and it's the opposite of yours. Most of the girls I know who play games play RPGs (and JRPGs) while most of the guys I know who play games are the ones constantly sending me invites for whatever the newest facebook game is and the ones who play the longer games that I like (such as BW games) don't ever finish them, don't know any of the characters names, etc...  
 
And like I said, if the industry were more welcoming to women I definitely think those numbers would even out. It's not like most tv watchers are men or most book readers are men or most movie watchers, music listeners, etc...because none of those things have such a hostile and possessive subculture and an industry so afraid of even slightly displeasing one demographic.


I can agree to that. However, I wouldn't term it as hostile though, maybe small pockets of the industry...but hey we are talking opinions here, your definition of hostile might even be different than mine. Let's be honest the industry doesn't care who the demographic is though, they just care about the money.

#574
I present Chuck Bass

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Yeah but the witcher is an alternate universe and shouldn't have to reflect our world... That's all a part of the creative process of the writers who craft the world and the designers who make the characters come to life. The creators shouldn't feel pressured to create overly sexualized women all for the sake of a certain demographic, NOR should they now feel pressured to create non overly sexualized characters for the sake of a demographic.
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#575
Panda

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[quote name="Panda" post="18429208" timestamp="1421834086"]
 
I mean I can tolerate playing games that are clearly aimed for straight male gamers and have eye-candy for them especially in places it doesn't fit but it makes me cringe a lot. When it goes in overboard like in Witcher it makes me uncomfortable.[/q

Yeah but the witcher is an alternate universe and shouldn't have to reflect our world... That's all a part of the creative process of the writers who craft the world.

 

The world they have created is not very female gamer friendly and to me it seems like developers of the game never even though that female gamer might play their game. I don't know if they have improved on Witcher 2 and upcoming 3rd game but the first one really makes me uncomfortable with it's treatment of female characters. The very badly written one-night stands and flirt options are one part of it (and some even contradict world they have createn wtf), the lack of plot relevant female characters (except Tris and Shianni who are still sexualised for no reason) and sexist environment that they have created (for example lot of female NPCs for example say that their husband don't permit them to talk strangers etc.) all contribute to my uncomfortabless with the game.


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