1820 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

Misogyny at it's worst right there. It's obviously some social commentary on how ALL women are total airheads that haven't even got enough agency to be in control of their own bodies.

LOLOL luv you, dude.

[Panda]

I googled it and following games didn't come up... But anyway, no I really don't honestly care if more women are put into gaming or not. I don't care about any of that. What I do care about is having games with more well written characters in general.

The rest will come naturally. No need to arbitrarily push for inclusiveness in a field meant to entertain. Writing is getting better, more diverse interesting characters will come as well. Which includes Witcher btw, and Witcher 2 has improved on things you've criticized,

 

League of Legends, Pokemon (Emerald) and Atelier: Meruru, those are correct names.

 

Well you seem to care to be able to kill more male enemies than female and to achieve that there would need to be more female character in the games as enemies and I fully support that. There is lack of female villains and enemies in the games ^^

[Ynqve]

Oh for the love of everything that is holy. 

 

Sexism is a serious issue, and it's something that harms both men and women. Saying that we shouldn't care about how women are represented in our media because men are overrepresented among the nameless npc's you kill isn't helpful. It's two very different kinds of objectification with different problems associated with them. So please stop this whole "my issue is more important than yours" crap, they're both important but they are different discussions.

[daveliam]

Glad to see that this has become a giant hyper-masculine circle-jerk where guys just congratulate each other for dismissing the female posters' concerns in more and more ridiculous ways.  Way to demonstrate first hand how concerns from women aren't taken seriously in the industry.  Nice work there.

 

Do I think that there is a single game where every women is sexualized?  No.  Do I think that every game sexualizes women?  No.  But do I think that women are sexualized in games and it bothers some (many) female players?  Yes, I do.  This is one of those situations where it might benefit you to just listen to other people's perspectives instead of trying to pick them apart and refute them.  If there are many women who say that this is a problem for them and you, as a man, can't relate to it, it doesn't mean that they are wrong or making things up.  It just means that they experience the medium in a different way than you do.  It would benefit everyone in the thread to take a step back and listen to what the other side is saying instead of going on attack, particularly the fairly insulting dismissals that have been happening lately.

 

By dismissing the concerns altogether and openly mocking the people who bring it up, you are proving yourself to be just as delusional as you claim that they are. 

[SnakeCode]

Oh for the love of everything that is holy. 

 

Sexism is a serious issue, and it's something that harms both men and women. Saying that we shouldn't care about how women are represented in our media because men are overrepresented among the nameless npc's you kill isn't helpful. It's two very different kinds of objectification with different problems associated with them. So please stop this whole "my issue is more important than yours" crap, they're both important but they are different discussions.

Literally nobody said this.

[Colonelkillabee]

League of Legends, Pokemon (Emerald) and Atelier: Meruru, those are correct names.
 
Well you seem to care to be able to kill more male enemies than female and to achieve that there would need to be more female character in the games as enemies and I fully support that. There is lack of female villains and enemies in the games ^^

Pokemon, come on, you're fighting furry animals. Don't know about the rest, but I know you don't even kill anything in those games, as I used to play them a lot as a kid on gameboys and nintendo.

But anyway, I honestly don't care about men being slaughtered more than females. It was just to show my point. And anyway, that's realistic. Men serve as soldiers more than women because that's usually our societal role. We're generally more physically built for it. Just the way it is.

I wouldn't mind at all seeing more female villains though. I thought flemeth was one back in Origins. Though even though she's not, I still like her a lot and hope to see more of her in the future. I don't think she's truly dead. Too iconic of a character for one, and the chick never dies. Guess we'll see. Morrigan would be a good replacement, if she really is getting her divinity.

[Colonelkillabee]

Literally nobody said this.

I know two people who just came in and DEFS DID NOT read the posts very closely. For one, there are females in here arguing on our side. Male circlejerk? Come again?

[LOLandStuff]

Pffff!!! Pokemon? Really?

 

So...nobody is concerned that maybe Pokemon might promote dog fighting?

[SnakeCode]

Glad to see that this has become a giant hyper-masculine circle-jerk where guys just congratulate each other for dismissing the female posters' concerns in more and more ridiculous ways.  Way to demonstrate first hand how concerns from women aren't taken seriously in the industry.  Nice work there.

 

Do I think that there is a single game where every women is sexualized?  No.  Do I think that every game sexualizes women?  No.  But do I think that women are sexualized in games and it bothers some (many) female players?  Yes, I do.  This is one of those situations where it might benefit you to just listen to other people's perspectives instead of trying to pick them apart and refute them.  If there are many women who say that this is a problem for them and you, as a man, can't relate to it, it doesn't mean that they are wrong or making things up.  It just means that they experience the medium in a different way than you do.  It would benefit everyone in the thread to take a step back and listen to what the other side is saying instead of going on attack, particularly the fairly insulting dismissals that have been happening lately.

 

By dismissing the concerns altogether and openly mocking the people who bring it up, you are proving yourself to be just as delusional as you claim that they are. 

Dave, your message is a good one (though put in a horribly condescending, holier than thou way) but your post should be aimed at everyone not just the guys. I pointed out than men too are objectified in almost every single game, just in a different way. It was followed by guess what? People dismissing my concerns. It's hypocritical to the extreme.

 

Where was this lecture when people were openly insulting and dismissing the OP? 

[daveliam]

I know two people who just came in and DEFS DID NOT read the posts very closely. For one, there are females in here arguing on our side. Male circlejerk? Come again?

 

Read every single post. 

The fact that you continue to "LOL" and "Luv you, dude" back and forth is what I'm referring to.

 

And, additionally, the fact that you admit that you don't care about men getting slaughtered, but still use it to refute the female posters' concerns is telling.

 

Female Poster:  "I have a problem with sexualization of females"

You:  "Well you are a hypocrite because you don't bring up the violence against men, even though I don't care about it either and don't see it to be a problem"

Female Poster:  "It's a different concern and it's not what I was talking about"

You:  "Doesn't matter.  I now get to call you names.  LOLOLOL"

 

Barf.

[Ynqve]

Literally nobody said this.

 

You're right. Nobody said it outright. But when you bring up arguments about why people should care more about how awful it is that men are slaughtered and proceed to make fun of people who find certain games sexist, then you're walking on thin ice. Better cut the crap early than cross the line into douche territory, no?

[daveliam]

Dave, your message is a good one (though put in a horribly condescending, holier than thou way) but your post should be aimed st everyone not just the guys. I pointed out than men too are objectified in almost every single game, just in a different way. It was followed by guess what? People dismissing my concerns. It's hypocritical to the extreme.

 

Where was this lecture when people were openly insulting and dismissing the OP? 

 

True.  The last two pages have just been gross, though, so it got me a little riled up.

 

In my defense, I did say both sides would benefit from this.

 

I am interested in hearing more about how you think that men are objectified in almost every single game.  I don't see that at all, but I'm willing to hear your thoughts on it.

[SnakeCode]

You're right. Nobody said it outright. But when you bring up arguments about why people should care more about how awful it is that men are slaughtered and proceed to make fun of people who find certain games sexist, then you're walking on thin ice. Better cut the crap early than cross the line into douche territory, no?

Nobody said people should care more about that, I pointed out that nobody cares at all. Certain posts that came after only reinforce that.

[Colonelkillabee]

Read every single post. 
The fact that you continue to "LOL" and "Luv you, dude" back and forth is what I'm referring to.
 
And, additionally, the fact that you admit that you don't care about men getting slaughtered, but still use it to refute the female posters' concerns is telling.

First of all, his post was humorous and I was out of likes. Sounds like someones a little butthurt.

Second, it's called proving a point. I'd be the hypocrite if I was complaining about males but didn't care about females.

What we have here is a perfect example of:
 

 

MISSING THE POINT

.

[Colonelkillabee]

Um.. I think not caring is the point?

 

 

This person got the point.

[Fandango]

True.  The last two pages have just been gross, though, so it got me a little riled up.
 
In my defense, I did say both sides would benefit from this.
 
I am interested in hearing more about how you think that men are objectified in almost every single game.  I don't see that at all, but I'm willing to hear your thoughts on it.

Meh, I'd rather you'd all keep it all to yourselves.

[daveliam]

First of all, his post was humorous and I was out of likes. Sounds like someones a little butthurt.

Second, it's called proving a point. I'd be the hypocrite if I was complaining about males but didn't care about females.

What we have here is a perfect example of:
 

 

How do you not understand that these are two different issues?  Breathtaking display of cluelessness. 

[Panda]

Well lately it really seems like people want to misunderstand me by purpose and dismiss my original points which is how developers would make games more inviting and less unwelcoming to female players. Not every female player of cource cause people still have preferences.

 

Including more female characters, making them better written and non-sexualised (they can still be sexy but does every female need to be that?) were my answers and I still stand behind them. Maybe even more after all this converstation with more and less related things.

 

Witcher was my point on what makes me feel uncomfortable of playing game and what I consider as one-dimensional and sexualised female characters. That's still my own experience what doesn't change on how much people tell me it's not correct one.

[Colonelkillabee]

How do you not understand that these are two different issues?  Breathtaking display of cluelessness. 

Because they're not.

 

Breathtaking display of hypocrisy.

[Panda]

And Colonel, the fact that you don't really care about having to kill so many male characters compared to female characters really just tells that you were trying to dismish my points of how I think women should be portrayed by changing the topic into something way different. And funnily it's something I'm behind as well. To bring more female characters in the games in all forms, let's end this default maleness.

[Laurelinde]

I googled it and following games didn't come up... But anyway, no I really don't honestly care if more women are put into gaming or not. I don't care about any of that. What I do care about is having games with more well written characters in general.

The rest will come naturally. No need to arbitrarily push for inclusiveness in a field meant to entertain. Writing is getting better, more diverse interesting characters will come as well. Which includes Witcher btw, and Witcher 2 has improved on things you've criticized,

 

With all due respect, any kind of progress towards equality rarely comes naturally and organically - or not entirely, anyway.  20-30 years ago when I was growing up, gay marriage was unheard of.  I personally don't believe that we would be in a position where gay marriage is now a reality or a real hope in so many places if people hadn't been raising the issue, bringing awareness, and pushing for it to happen, if everyone had just sat back and said, 'well, it will happen on its own one day'.  Simply because there is pushback in the opposite direction (ie people who oppose it), and because apathy and inertia are just so strong.  Without a strong feeling one way or the other, most people will do nothing, which inherently upholds the status quo.

 

Same for any movement I can think of, emancipation, universal suffrage, prison and labor reforms, civil rights, disability discrimination, you name it.  

 

For people who want to see more of themselves in media, the answer 'well go make it yourself' isn't really as obvious as it may seem, because the deck is stacked against them (see my example earlier in the thread about developers being told by publishers that they won't take their game with a female lead, for example, or the fact that outside of people like Tyler Perry, not a lot of black-oriented films get made in Hollywood.)  Without all the existing infrastructure and networking and money that exists in 'mainstream' media, newcomers from outside that framework don't have nearly as much of a chance.

 

I think/hope crowdsourcing can ameliorate this somewhat, but we're not there yet, and it's ok to acknowledge that - doing so does not mean that men or white people or straight people or whoever are automatically horrid, nasty, moustache-twirling bigots.  It just means we all inherited an imperfect, unequal world.

[Ynqve]

Nobody said people should care more about that, I pointed out that nobody cares at all. Certain posts that came after only reinforce that.

 

And yet you used it as a way to belittle posters who disagreed with you. I get that you weren't 100 % serious with everything you posted, but I'm with daveliam. I thought it was disrespectful. As I said, I think the issues with the way we portray the legions of nameless goons that only exist to get slaughtered is an important discussion to have. But it has nothing to do with female characters and how they're over sexualized. You can talk about how these nameless goons are a symbol of a destructive male gender role, and thus connect it to the discussion about sexism. But that's not really what you guys were talking about, was it? 

[Colonelkillabee]

And Colonel, the fact that you don't really care about having to kill so many male characters compared to female characters really just tells that you were trying to dismish my points of how I think women should be portrayed by changing the topic into something way different. And funnily it's something I'm behind as well. To bring more female characters in the games in all forms, let's end this default maleness.

No... what it means is that I understand that these things are just for entertainment, and if I can get that despite how gross the male treatment is by your logic, you should be able to do the same in reverse.

 

I didn't switch topics, I showed my point with an example. Common place in debating.