1820 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

Just going to say lol, no I don't think women withholding sex is a front against men... LOLOL.

 

But yes, women are the ones in our society (I'm American) that decides who gets it. They choose the men generally, not the other way around.

[Fandango]

Because equality is nice to have? Cause it's not always nice to feel excluded from things you like? Cause it actually wouldn't be hard for games to be developed in both male and female gamers in mind?
 
I guess I'm just out of luck liking fantasy, scifi and action things.

Equality of opportunity is super-important and I'll join everybody in congratulating Bioware for the great work they do in creating games for a diverse group of gamers, but I'm just not down with the whole equality of outcome 'thing' as it precludes developers from making games with a specific audience in mind.

Why not have both?

[Abyss108]

Name just three games where EVERY female character exists JUST to be sexy.

 

There's about as many as there are where every single man exists only to be killed which is what my point was in reference to.

There's varied representations of women too, people just focus on the negatives, as always.

And how is that a problem even if it were true, in a dang videogame meant for entertainment?

Why is everyone afraid of sex?

 

Nothing to do with sex. The usual issue is that its only women who are expected to be sexy. If the men are treated the same way, there's no problem. 

[Colonelkillabee]

 

Nothing to do with sex. The usual issue is that its only women who are expected to be sexy. If the men are treated the same way, there's no problem. 

The males all have washboard abs and so on and they're not expected to be sexy?

[Ynqve]

Just going to say lol, no I don't think women withholding sex is a front against men... LOLOL.

 

But yes, women are the ones in our society (I'm American) that decides who gets it. They choose the men generally, not the other way around.

 

That's interesting. Care to explain how that is? It has to be a cultural thing (I'm Scandinavian), because I can't see how women have more power over men when it comes to sex. From where I'm standing, things look pretty much equal. 

[Laurelinde]

Just going to say lol, no I don't think women withholding sex is a front against men... LOLOL.

 

But yes, women are the ones in our society (I'm American) that decides who gets it. They choose the men generally, not the other way around.

 

Let's take that a step further though.  Why is it that women are...I don't want to say forced because that is too strong...why are women generally in the 'gatekeeper' role regarding sex?

 

I'm not an idiot, I know that biology plays a role.  Higher levels of testosterone generally mean higher levels of aggression, both sexual and non-sexual, and overall men/male-bodied people have more testosterone than women/female-bodied people.  Women/FBP are also the ones who have the capacity to be pregnant and are therefore more likely to be responsible for some aspects of child-rearing in many cases.  Both of these will affect how the genders (or probably technically the sexes, but I don't wanna get bogged down in that) approach sex matters, when we're talking about straight relationships at least.

 

That said, a woman's sexuality and fertility have historically (and still are in some respects) been treated primarily as a commodity and not a part of her.  The whole institution of marriage is basically founded on the idea that a man gets to 'own' a woman and her womb/fertility, making it off limits to other men.  That capacity for procreation was traded by the woman's parents to her husband in exchange for goods.

 

Obviously that is no longer true in a literal sense.  But shaming a woman for being sexual is still a real thing - hell, just look around the forums at some of the words used to describe Isabela, who very clearly does not conform to that idea of a chaste, virginal woman whose sexuality is only expressed with one man who claims her in a permanent, formalised monogamy.  Look at some of the responses given re: health insurance and birth control pills in the US - even in cases where the pill is being used for non-sexual medical conditions like endometriosis.  It's changing, and rapidly, but there are still real social (as well as possible physical) consequences for a woman who chooses to be sexual on her own terms outside of a long-term relationship, and the woman is not the one making those rules or deciding on those consequences on her own.  To some extent, women are 'forced' into the gatekeeper role because the stakes are high if she doesn't, and not everyone is willing to accept those risks.

 

Finally, I also want to point out that my personal life experience has shown me that there is very, very little sympathy given to women who are not sexually desirable but still want sex and relationships.  For all the talk about the 'friend zone'...well, first of all if you're going to be someone's friend, the friendship should be its own reward - friendship is hugely undervalued, IMO.  Secondly, in the case of 'I want more but the other person doesn't, women experience that, too.  I have asked out men and been rejected.  I have had unrequited love.  I have never been under the illusion that I am an attractive, desirable woman, and yet somehow, I still found someone crazy enough to marry me and stay with me for going on 14 years now.  Could I have gone out and found some random dude who would bone me?  Maybe.  I could just as easily have gone to a prostitute.  Sex is not something you automatically get to have just because you want it, any more than you can have chocolate cake exclusively for every meal, or get your dream job without even having to interview just because you want it so much.  When it comes to relationships, both parties have to find someone they want, and both parties get to choose whether they're in or out.

 

There is no question, wanting someone who doesn't want you back sucks.  But life often does, and it does not mean that the object(s) of your affection are wielding undue institutional power over you and everyone in your demographic group.

[MoonDrummer]

The males all have washboard abs and so on and they're not expected to be sexy?

Man elf has mantits

[SnakeCode]

There's about as many as there are where every single man exists only to be killed which is what my point was in reference to.

 

 

No there aren't. It's not even close, which is why you chose not to answer. You can't even think of three off the top of your head.

[Colonelkillabee]

Man elf has mantits

LOL

 

 

That's interesting. Care to explain how that is? It has to be a cultural thing (I'm Scandinavian), because I can't see how women have more power over men when it comes to sex. From where I'm standing, things look pretty much equal. 

As Laurelinde pointed out, they obviously don't have a monopoly on it, and as she said, it is partly biology.

 

In american society, it's cool for women to remain "virginal", or at least moreso than guys, but in highschool, the guys who are virgins are made fun of and called losers. I'm not proud to say I contributed to that and the namecalling, but there it is. Lol I still slip and do that sometimes. And yes I know women are called prudes if they don't sex it up a little. Then called sluts if they do "too much". You might consider that man's way of making women feel guilty for not having sex with them, or simply having sex with someone else.

 

But either way, the point is here, women are pressured to choose wisely, and Men generally have to do something or have something that makes them worthy of having sex. Not always, but a lot of the time you need to have a good job, or a car, money, that kind of thing. Women just have to be attractive to someone.

 

We have to show we are providers. Because that's what men are expected to be. Even just sexual attraction shows this. Strong arms broad shoulders, all that suggests a fit working man that can bring something to the table.

 

Again yes this is speaking in general and not the rule, but that's how it mostly is.

[Panda]

I don't personally mind if someone has a specific demographic in mind for a piece of media.

 

It's the utter, extreme skewing toward one demographic that bothers me. When a company wants to break the mold and aim for a different demographic, the pitchforks are raised, or they lose funding. That's a problem.

 

Equality of opportunity is super-important and I'll join everybody in congratulating Bioware for the great work they do in creating games for a diverse group of gamers, but I'm just not down with the whole equality of outcome 'thing' as it precludes developers from making games with a specific audience in mind.

Why not have both?

 

In ideal situation majority of games would be made both genders a mind and then some games would have more specific audience in mind. Cause now the problem for me at least is that there really is some games made on both genders in mind, none (I mean if you want to include Barbie games then few games but I really don't) in female players only in mind and majority is made in male players in mind.

 

The biggest video game audience might be straight male gamers but I believe there is lot of potential audience in the female gamers which has been growing lately. And the games that are aimed for both most likely will get biggest audience in the end.

[Ynqve]

LOL

 

 

As Laurelinde pointed out, they obviously don't have a monopoly on it, and as she said, it is partly biology.

 

In american society, it's cool for women to remain "virginal", or at least moreso than guys, but in highschool, the guys who are virgins are made fun of and called losers. I'm not proud to say I contributed to that and the namecalling, but there it is. Lol I still slip and do that sometimes. And yes I know women are called prudes if they don't sex it up a little. Then called sluts if they do "too much". You might consider that man's way of making women feel guilty for not having sex with them, or simply having sex with someone else.

 

But either way, the point is here, women are pressured to choose wisely, and Men generally have to do something or have something that makes them worthy of having sex. Not always, but a lot of the time you need to have a good job, or a car, money, that kind of thing. Women just have to be attractive to someone.

 

We have to show we are providers. Because that's what men are expected to be. Even just sexual attraction shows this. Strong arms broad shoulders, all that suggests a fit working man that can bring something to the table.

 

Again yes this is speaking in general and not the rule, but that's how it mostly is.

 

That sounds horrible and stupid. I'm not saying everything is perfect around here, we have our share of morons and there are cases of **** shaming (especially among teenagers), but things are way more equal. If I meet a man I'm not going to judge him by his potential as a meal ticket, I can provide for myself. What matters is if I like him or not. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Here's a crazy thought, what if women simply aren't as into gaming as guys?

 

And I'm not talking over all but those who play the games a ton and are considered "hardcore" gamers.

 

I honestly on't think shooting for equality and getting devs to make something besides what they want will make gaming any more appealing for grown women

[Colonelkillabee]

That sounds horrible and stupid. I'm not saying everything is perfect around here, we have our share of morons and there are cases of **** shaming (especially among teenagers), but things are way more equal. If I meet a man I'm not going to judge him by his potential as a meal ticket, I can provide for myself. What matters is if I like him or not. 

It is I guess, but it makes sense honestly. I can't really blame a woman for wanting security for her family, can I? It's realistic, even if it's a harsh reality for some who can't get good paying jobs and are looked at as losers.

[JohnstonMR]

Basically everyone just needs to chill out and get a real girlfriend/boyfriend/cat.  

Horsecrap.  I'm married, quite happily, for the last ten years.  And I still enjoy romances in games, just like I like them in movies, or books, or any other form of storytelling.  

 

I play Bioware games--hell, I play pretty much ALL the video games I play--for STORY as much as for gameplay.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I am wholly uninterested in games that don't include a story.  Enjoying the romantic angle of game stories is just another facet of the experience.

 

Not interested in game romance?  Fine, whatever.  Nothing wrong with that.  But your attitude towards those who do is a bit ridiculous. 

[JohnstonMR]

Not to mention I can't grasp wtf is wrong with someone thinking less of the character who (oh dear god no) might have interest not only in the male but also in a female pc. What bs is this? I feel really sorry for bi people if this bs happens in real life too.

 

It does.  All the damned time.  I don't have to deal with it much, but that's mostly because I'm married, and therefore, while still bi, I'm effectively straight in most people's eyes. Still, I'm open about it, as is my wife, and sometimes we get some really, really stupid questions.  

[Ynqve]

It is I guess, but it makes sense honestly. I can't really blame a woman for wanting security for her family, can I? It's realistic, even if it's a harsh reality for some who can't get good paying jobs and are looked at as losers.

 

I suppose. Idk, it's just so different from how things work around here. 

[Colonelkillabee]

It does.  All the damned time.  I don't have to deal with it much, but that's mostly because I'm married, and therefore, while still bi, I'm effectively straight in most people's eyes. Still, I'm open about it, as is my wife, and sometimes we get some really, really stupid questions.  

Oh I can imagine, lol.

[daveliam]

I suppose. Idk, it's just so different from how things work around here. 

 

It's also a generalization.  That summary represents a conservative and slightly outdated view on it in America, in my experience.  We're a huge country, so depending on who and where, the "American experience" can vary greatly.  I have a ton of female friends in their mid-20's to early 40's.  Very few of them have a "find me a provider" mentality.  Almost all of my guy friends are straight.  Most of them have very little trouble with finding girlfriends/dates/sexual partners and not many of them are super studs.  Their experience is about the same as my female friends.  And I know because I serve as a very solid wing-man to both straight guys and straight gals.  (It's a gift)  It might be the region where I live, which tends to be one of the most politically liberal areas, but I also think it just goes to show how it's not really something that can be generalized that easily. 

[Laurelinde]

Here's a crazy thought, what if women simply aren't as into gaming as guys?

 

And I'm not talking over all but those who play the games a ton and are considered "hardcore" gamers.

 

I honestly on't think shooting for equality and getting devs to make something besides what they want will make gaming any more appealing for grown women

 

That's partly the point, though.  Why would or should there be anything intrinsically 'male' about gaming as a hobby, compared to anything else?  I'm not convinced male and female brains are so different that most things would skew heavily towards one gender or the other, all else being equal (ie without socialisation bending things otherwise.)  There obviously is a difference between a 'male' brain and a 'female' brain or else trans people wouldn't exist, which is something I'm still coming to terms with (since historically, brain difference, real or perceived or imagined, has been used to keep rights away from women, black people/people of color, LGBTQ people, etc.)

 

Gaming has long been aimed and marketed at men, and I in no way think that men should have less games or that games or gaming should be changed as a whole to make them unappealing to men.  That would be silly!  I do think there is scope for looking at making more games which may appeal to women, as well, however, and for broadening both the number and variety of games from AAA to tiny indie which have a very wide, diverse appeal.

 

Case in point: I have played and enjoyed several of the Scribblenauts games.  They're good fun, and because of the scope for problem-solving through a variety of methods, I wouldn't say it is a particularly gendered game.  Both men and women like puzzles and both men and women have to use problem solving and creativity in our day to day lives.  In the original, the player avatar is a rather generic looking boy.  There's only the one character and realistically, it was always going to be a male character because of the weird stigma about 'boys won't play as girls' and 'female characters don't sell.'  In Scribblenauts Unlimited, you start as the same kid (I think his name is Maxwell, but don't quote me), but you also meet his parents, his sister and his something like 100 brothers.  The sister is immediately incapacitated and you spend the rest of the main story part of the game trying to rescue her, meeting your brothers along the way.  Each brother you meet is unlocked as a new costume/customisation option for your player.  The sister is not unlocked until you beat the game.

 

Now I enjoyed the game, but I found it utterly baffling why they did not make some of the brothers into sisters.  Why would they not include customisation options so that players could choose to use a female avatar as well as a male?  It's not a WWII combat sim or a game set in a Shaolin monastery or even anything that particularly would appeal to boys over girls, I'd have thought, so it felt, to me, like a weird move and an oversight on their part, even without the whole 'there is one girl among your siblings and you have to rescue her' angle.  The female model even already existed in the game (and it's not 3D rendering so we're not talking massive time investment), so why not allow people to use it?

 

Even little changes like that could potentially make the games industry and gaming more 'woman-friendly', and at no real cost to either male gamers or the developers.  So why not take it?

[Iakus]

I think Cassandra and Josephine can still be sexy. I mean you have romance scenes where Cassandra is at least is naked, if that's not sexy in terms of romance idk what is ^^; I still find her normal appearance sexy as well.

 

 

Naked=/=sexy.

 

I mean, Cassandra's romance is nice and all.  But her being naked really added nothing to it. 

[AshesEleven]

Horsecrap.  I'm married, quite happily, for the last ten years.  And I still enjoy romances in games, just like I like them in movies, or books, or any other form of storytelling.  

 

I play Bioware games--hell, I play pretty much ALL the video games I play--for STORY as much as for gameplay.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I am wholly uninterested in games that don't include a story.  Enjoying the romantic angle of game stories is just another facet of the experience.

 

Not interested in game romance?  Fine, whatever.  Nothing wrong with that.  But your attitude towards those who do is a bit ridiculous. 

...I think you misunderstood.  I was joking.  Or at least, mostly joking.  I thought the "Cat" part indicated that.

 

But when people get so invested that they start getting MAD at writers and developers, and others, for not including certain romances, or not doing a romance right, or for "cheating them" on romances, then we have a problem.  Look, I love these games as much as any rabid fan.  I get that you can get invested in these stories.  That ain't a problem, and that's not what my comment was about.  When you start crapping on others for their choices, or complaining that the writers aren't specifically pandering to you, and then there are hurt feeling involved?  That's a problem.

[JohnstonMR]

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm really glad they didn't make Cullen bi. What they did in ME with Kaiden was silly and didn't make sense. I do agree that men should have just as many options as female players, but making a character that has already been portrayed as straight bi "just because" doesn't make sense.  

 

 

I am so, so tired of this idiotic argument.  Look, dude, I don't know you, and for all I know you're a great guy.  But this?  This is class-A stupid.  

 

I know, off the top of my head, five or six men who didn't admit to themselves they were gay or bi (two of them are now openly gay, the others bi) until they were well into their 20s and 30s.  In at least three of those, they had no real inkling they could ever, ever be into a guy.  Then they met someone, and it became clear, after a lot of self-searching and not a small amount of heartache.  

 

As much as some people don't want to believe it, sexuality is fluid in some people; it can change over time.  There is a trope in fiction of guys meeting other guys as adults, and realizing that holy crap, they like men just like they like women.  That trope exists because it is a real, human experience.  It may not be your experience, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real one. 

 

Kaidan was never portrayed as straight.  Sure, he mentioned only a woman he loved once.  That doesn't make him straight.  Given that the ME universe is now known to have no stigma about homosexuality, it does indicate that he hadn't been totally into a guy like that before he realizes his affection in ME3 (which, remember, comes after a life-threatening injury and some deep, deep, soul-searching about just why he was so angry about Shepard being possibly compromised, and about what he wants in life), but it could also be just that he never felt for a guy like he felt for that girl at Jump Zero, and he didn't feel it necessary to say "OH RIGHT--I've also sometimes gotten a woodie for hot guys."  Because who actually says stuff like that, especially to their CO, even if he is becoming a friend?

[Colonelkillabee]

It's also a generalization.  That summary represents a conservative and slightly outdated view on it in America, in my experience.  We're a huge country, so depending on who and where, the "American experience" can vary greatly.  I have a ton of female friends in their mid-20's to early 40's.  Very few of them have a "find me a provider" mentality.  Almost all of my guy friends are straight.  Most of them have very little trouble with finding girlfriends/dates/sexual partners and not many of them are super studs.  Their experience is about the same as my female friends.  And I know because I serve as a very solid wing-man to both straight guys and straight gals.  (It's a gift)  It might be the region where I live, which tends to be one of the most politically liberal areas, but I also think it just goes to show how it's not really something that can be generalized that easily. 

It defs depends on where you are. I live in the south, South Carolina. People hook up all the time of course, since just having sex  doesn't require a resume. But there's hooking up, and then there's dating, expecting a relationship and for it to lead somewhere. Here, and in most places I've been actually, that requires the man to have himself together or at least working on it. Going to college and so on.

[Ynqve]

It's also a generalization.  That summary represents a conservative and slightly outdated view on it in America, in my experience.  We're a huge country, so depending on who and where, the "American experience" can vary greatly.  I have a ton of female friends in their mid-20's to early 40's.  Very few of them have a "find me a provider" mentality.  Almost all of my guy friends are straight.  Most of them have very little trouble with finding girlfriends/dates/sexual partners and not many of them are super studs.  Their experience is about the same as my female friends.  And I know because I serve as a very solid wing-man to both straight guys and straight gals.  (It's a gift)  It might be the region where I live, which tends to be one of the most politically liberal areas, but I also think it just goes to show how it's not really something that can be generalized that easily. 

 

This makes way more sense to me. And I know, you shouldn't judge America by looking at a tiny part of it. It's too big and too diverse. 

[JohnstonMR]

This kinda thing is likely why Anders didn't tell F!Hawke about Karl, & its sad that ive known women who wouldn't tolerate him as a potential boyfriend if he outwardly said about liking other men sexually

 

Yep.  To be fair, it goes both ways, I've also known gay men who wouldn't get involved with a bi guy.  Hell, my last boyfriend, after I got married, said that if he'd realized I was bi at first he never would have dated me. This was after we had a six year-long relationship that was mostly good, and we're still friends.