1820 réponses à ce sujet

[Panda]

Man, I loooove the broad sweep you just did there, even though we've not only seen straights males going against this, females going against this, AND gays going against this.

 

Two of which are friends with me, btw. Don't lump people in with this bs. You all are certainly not representations of the general female opinion, or LGBT opinion either.

 

Where's hashtag not your shield when you need it.

 

I'm writing down for what I have seen in here forums. Everyone might not agree with me but that should be understood by default. And doesn't people love to talk about majorities? So let's say that majority agree with me. Or do you think there isn't lot of gamers who want diversity in the games, to be represented at least in few medias. Do you think these people haven't been into games ages?

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm writing down for what I have seen in here forums. Everyone might not agree with me but that should be understood by default. And doesn't people love to talk about majorities? So let's say that majority agree with me. Or do you think there isn't lot of gamers who want diversity in the games, to be represented at least in few medias. Do you think these people haven't been into games ages?

I know first hand there's a ton who don't want what you want, which is pushing for these things when the focus should be to entertain and make fun games, not to make everyone feel speshal. Go on twitter, type in gamergate, you'll see plenty of women, blacks, gays, all of that that do not want what you are selling.

 

I myself am biracial.

[Panda]

I know first hand there's a ton who don't want what you want, which is pushing for these things when the focus should be to entertain and make fun games, not to make everyone feel speshal. Go on twitter, type in gamergate, you'll see plenty of women, blacks, gays, all of that that do not want what you are selling.

 

I myself am biracial.

 

Those are main arguments of people about the things we were talking about.

 

I don't really want to take gamergate on this cause the whole thing is mess and should be just forgotten.

 

So people don't want diversity in the games? I can't really see how game can be entertaining and funny with having same generic characters and tropes that have been seen over and over again.

[Colonelkillabee]

So people don't want diversity in the games? I can't really see how game can be entertaining and funny with having same generic characters and tropes that have been seen over and over again.

Did you forget everything we talked about earlier? I don't care if games are more diverse or not, I just want better writing in general. More diversity comes with that.

 

That isn't the same as not wanting diversity. That's not wanting games to become a social agenda.

[Panda]

Did you forget everything we talked about earlier? I don't care if games are more diverse or not, I just want better writing in general. More diversity comes with that.

 

That isn't the same as not wanting diversity. That's not wanting games to become a social agenda.

 

If people who are outside main demography don't make themselves visible and keep asking for more diversity I doubt there can even be change towards better writing and more diverse characters which to me are forms of better writing as well. And I already think this change has been shown with some companies like Bioware. Mass Effect didn't have gay LI until ME3 (though the female LI situation was very bad there) etc.

 

I still find asking conventionally attractive female characters without any flaws goes against better writing, there can't be no diversity if every female character or if every important female character has to be perfect to straight male gamers. 

 

Also asking well-written female characters in the games is not anywhere close as restricting than asking developers to make conventionally attractive female LI's and making list on attributes on what they can't have and what they must have since I have seen this happening.

[Colonelkillabee]

You can doubt it all you want, but that doesn't make it true, and even if there weren't that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I've never looked at a movie and went "where's the minorities" unless it was something like a biblical movie where depicting everyone as white is extremely historically inaccurate.

 

And I'm not talking about the chuckleheads who don't know a pretty woman when they see one, I'm talking about busy bodies that can't just let entertainment be about entertainment.

 

And I dunno about you, but women like seeing pretty females too. Lesbians and bisexuals. Guess they don't matter... I'm not at all in support of making characters like cassandra more "feminine" or bitching and moaning that there's not enough "hot" bebs like some others. That's just as annoying as the people doing what you're doing tbh.

 

But there's nothing wrong with having sexy women around, even if their purpose is minimal.

[Panda]

I think the sexy debate is debated enough already and since we can't even agree what's sexy and what's sexualised ^^;

 

Idk about you but when I'm watching movies I see absence of women quite easily and even more noticeable when they are treated badly. Good example would be Transformers movies, they really destroyed the francise that I have held dear since I was child.

 

Lesbians and bisexuals like seeing pretty women but it shouldn't be thought as default that what's pretty to straight males is pretty to them as well. If we go to Japan's side I can say that Yuri that's meant for lesbians is quite different than Yuri that's meant for straight men.  Yuri= genre of manga which involves mature f/f action. Well I don't know either what lesbians and bisexual women want exactly for their characters, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be defaulted on what straight males find attracive without asking on lesbians and bisexuals what they like.

[Fandango]

So people don't want diversity in the games? I can't really see how game can be entertaining and funny with having same generic characters and tropes that have been seen over and over again.

To ask for diversity of the kind you want in every game is to damage diversity when it comes to gaming as a whole Panda. Not every game is going to resonate with every audience, right? I mean, look at the mess EA made of Dead Space in trying to reinvent survival horror as something more appealing an audience that doesn't enjoy or play survival horror! Trying to broaden the appeal of every game so is to dilute the diversity of gaming experiences available to all of us. Which isn't to say that some games shouldn't be developed with a super-broad audience in mind!

That said, I do agree that - on aggregate - games need to do a much better job when it comes to representation. I'd just like to see that representation handled in such a way as to render it unimportant to all.

[Panda]

To ask for diversity of the kind you want in every game is to damage diversity when it comes to gaming as a whole Panda. Not every game is going to resonate with every audience, right? I mean, look at the mess EA made of Dead Space in trying to reinvent survival horror as something more appealing an audience that doesn't enjoy or play survival horror! Trying to broaden the appeal of every game so is to dilute the diversity of gaming experiences available to all of us. Which isn't to say that some games shouldn't be developed with a broad audience in mind!


That said, I do agree that - on aggregate - games need to do a much better job when it comes to representation. I'd just like to see that representation handled in such a way as to render it unimportant to all.

 

Pretty much what I'm asking is to games to have more diverse characters and characters that fit in the said game. Characters that aren't sexualised but some of them are sexy (sexualised to me is something that is done against their personality and environment just for fanservice purposes). Games where female characters are treated as well as male characters.

 

I'm not asking changing any genres here. The problem for me is that only one demographic is taking in accord when doing games, it wouldn't be problem if majority games were for everyone and then some games for male and female (and other possible demographics). The problem at the moment is that still most of games and most of AAA games, popular games etc. are only made for one demographic.

[Fandango]

Pretty much what I'm asking is to games to have more diverse characters and characters that fit in the said game. Characters that aren't sexualised but some of them are sexy (sexualised to me is something that is done against their personality and environment just for fanservice purposes). Games where female characters are treated as well as male characters.
 
I'm not asking changing any genres here. The problem for me is that only one demographic is taking in accord when doing games, it wouldn't be problem if majority games were for everyone and then some games for male and female (and other possible demographics). The problem at the moment is that still most of games and most of AAA games, popular games etc. are only made for one demographic.

Right, but many of us don't have a problem with sexualised characters in our videogames Panda. Also - not to open up a whole other can of worms here - I just don't accept that male videogame characters are treated any better than their female counterparts. As for your final point, I'll just have to say again that trying to broaden the appeal of every game so is to dilute the diversity of gaming experiences available to all of us.

[Panda]

Right, but many of us don't have a problem with sexualised characters in our videogames Panda. Also - not to open up a whole other can of worms here - I just don't accept that male videogame characters are treated any better than their female counterparts. Indeed, what does 'better' even mean? And, as for your final point, I'll just have to say again that trying to broaden the appeal of every game so is to dilute the diversity of gaming experiences available to all of us.

 

Let's just say that many of us do and I sincerily believe that.

 

Better as more plot-relevant, more diverse (except protagonists), less sexualised and less fanservicey.

 

I don't get how it would dilute (yay new word) anything, pretty much opposite.

 

Sigh I just disagree.

[Fandango]

Let's just say that many of us do and I sincerily believe that.
 
Better as more plot-relevant, more diverse (except protagonists), less sexualised and less fanservicey.
 
I don't get how it would dilute (yay new word) anything, pretty much opposite.
 
Sigh I just disagree.

No, lets get underneath this. If you have an issue with sexualised characters in some videogames, perhaps it's fair to say that those games are not for you? 

[ThreeF]

DAI has much more diversity in the romance department than any previous games mainly because of the sheer number of romanceable characters. And if you look at it even when  DA use similar trope (and you basically can narrow all down to two or three) it doesn't repeats it exactly.

 

in DAO you had a broken naive guy who hid behind humour, a broken seasoned guy who hid behind sex, a rebel teenager, a confused damsel (4 people)

in DA2 you had a broken guy with a lot of rage bottled up, a broken batshit crazy guy,  a controlling guy with a chastity belt, a sexy rebel, a girly kinda naive damsel (5 people)

in DAI you have a broken guy on a road to recovery, a broken guy with a dark past, a broken confused guy, a nerdy guy with secrets, a witty flamboyant guy, a broken rebel teenager, a rebel within a reason, a pure damsel. (6 people)

 

You can still narrow it all down to broken guys, rebels and damsels, but there is diversity across the games. You didn't got what you want this game? Wait for the next one. I did.

[Panda]

No, lets get underneath this. If you have an issue with sexualised characters in your videogames, perhaps it's fair to say that those games are not for you? And, if we replace the word 'dilute' with 'homogenise', would my point about the damage broadening the appeal of games does to diversity make more sense to you?

 

Well in my approach games at the moment and especially in the past are homogenized and this would heterogenize them since developers could make different kind of protagonist, not only white straight guys and different kind of characters without relying to overused tropes.

 

So pretty much 80% of the games whose genres I like aren't for me. Witcher, Mass Effect, Atelier, League of Legends etc. Then if we go into comics and movies.. well there isn't much things for me to enjoy in the world.

 

I do have problem with sexualization and I will keep talking about it but in most of games I can get past it and still enjoy them but it doesn't meant that they wouldn't feel unwelcoming for me in times because of that and I wouldn't think that they couldn't be easily improved

[Xetykins]

Well in my approach games at the moment and especially in the past are homogenized and this would heterogenize them since developers could make different kind of protagonist, not only white straight guys and different kind of characters without relying to overused tropes.
 
So pretty much 80% of the games whose genres I like aren't for me. Witcher, Mass Effect, Atelier, League of Legends etc. Then if we go into comics and movies.. well there isn't much things for me to enjoy in the world.
 
I do have problem with sexualization and I will keep talking about it but in most of games I can get past it and still enjoy them but it doesn't meant that they wouldn't feel unwelcoming for me in times because of that and I wouldn't think that they couldn't be easily improved

I take it you don't like being oogled in real life as a woman?

[ThreeF]

Well in my approach games at the moment and especially in the past are homogenized and this would heterogenize them since developers could make different kind of protagonist, not only white straight guys and different kind of characters without relying to overused tropes.

 

I don't know if BW is bold enough to go outside the basic romance tropes. BW didn't created these tropes they always existed, which indicates that majority of people likes them and wants them. I mean even in this game some of the characters try to get away from these tropes and you hear people saying "too sweet", "too bland", "boring"

[Panda]

I take it you don't like being oogled in real life as a woman?

 

People should stop using weird words really. Hmm, not much really? I don't know how this is relevant ^^;

[Xetykins]

People should stop using weird words really. Hmm, not much really? I don't know how this is relevant ^^;

Maybe there there's no relevance but kinda explains your views.

[Addai]

Pretty much what I'm asking is to games to have more diverse characters and characters that fit in the said game. Characters that aren't sexualised but some of them are sexy (sexualised to me is something that is done against their personality and environment just for fanservice purposes). Games where female characters are treated as well as male characters.
 
I'm not asking changing any genres here. The problem for me is that only one demographic is taking in accord when doing games, it wouldn't be problem if majority games were for everyone and then some games for male and female (and other possible demographics). The problem at the moment is that still most of games and most of AAA games, popular games etc. are only made for one demographic.

No, that's not what you're asking for, because we discussed this with The Witcher which has a great variety of personality and body types, good writing and high artistic values, but you only noticed the sexual themes and dismiss the whole game because of those. I think "more variety, more representation" is actually used to argue for "less variety, and only the representation I want to see." Which is fine- but admit you're just like everyone else and want what you want. Don't try to ennoble it by saying you're working for the betterment of humanity. The games that get dissed as sexist sometimes explore themes that a more sanitized, "non offensive" piece of art would not.

[Panda]

No, that's not what you're asking for, because we discussed this with The Witcher which has a great variety of personality and body types but you only noticed the sexualized ones and dismiss the whole game because of those. I think "more variety, more representation" is actually used to argue for "less variety, and only the representation I want to see." Which is fine- but admit you're just like everyone else and want what you want. Don't try to ennoble it by saying you're working for the betterment of humanity. The games that get dissed as sexist sometimes explore themes that a more sanitized, "non offensive" piece of art would not.

 

No, although you disagree with me on old women in the the Witcher (everyone of them has exactly same model as well so variety, where?).

 

I do want variety. I want sexy and non-sexy female characters. I want one's that are like Merrill, Isabela, Cassanda etc. I don't want sexualised one's. And I don't want what I want (that sounds weird but in sense you are talking about).

 

Although you can't see my points don't claim I'm going with my preferences here cause I'm not. If I were the outcome would be quite different.

[Maverick_One]

I don't know if BW is bold enough to go outside the basic romance tropes. BW didn't created these tropes they always existed, which indicates that majority of people likes them and wants them. I mean even in this game some of the characters try to get away from these tropes and you hear people saying "too sweet", "too bland", "boring"

People are not happy till they complain about something. Whether it is trying something different or sticking to the same ole tropes people complain. Sorry people if you don't like what I said. Still truth. Doubt it just look around BSN.  

[Panda]

Yep, we've already agreed that the games industry should do a better job when it comes to representation Panda.

Again, if you have such an issue with sexualised characters in your videogames, perhaps it's fair to say that those games that (to your mind at least) include them are not for you?

 

Sexualised characters pretty much mean not well-written characters so better would be cut those things from games. But yes clearly these games aren't for me. They could be with couple improvements but it seems like lot of main demographic is against change and this is why we can't have it.

[ThreeF]

People are not happy till they complain about something. Whether it is trying something different or sticking to the same ole tropes people complain. Sorry people if you don't like what I said. Still truth. Doubt it just look around BSN.  

 

True.

[Fandango]

Sexualised characters pretty much mean not well-written characters so better would be cut those things from games. But yes clearly these games aren't for me. They could be with couple improvements but it seems like lot of main demographic is against change and this is why we can't have it.

Sexualised characters can be well written too Panda. And we already have non-sexualised videogame characters aplenty. Sorry.

[Panda]

Sexualised characters can be well written too Panda. And we already have non-sexualised videogame characters aplenty. Sorry.

 

They can be well-written but their sexualization will then fight against how they are written so sexualisation is negative and brings down their character.

 

I don't think we have plenty. Even series that usually does write good female characters like Mass Effect still has sexualised them.

 

The thing is that when male characters is written there is more options and ways developer can go. With female character default is make them sexy and conventionally attractive and lot of gamers react negatively if devs in another direction.