65 réponses à ce sujet

[lichg]

Hair doesnt just clip with the armor but also your face and head. And i dont mean "ah the hair connects at that point", no, i mean it goes through it.

But i think SOME parts are animated.. i think..

[NotBeouwulf]

because lazyness. We don't even have proper black hair FFS.

When people mention laziness with game design like this it usually shows they don't understand how any project works.

Each project has a budget. Of that budget an amount is allocated for employee wages. From that amount, based on local laws and employee salary, you can determine how many man hours you have to work on a project. Each task you accomplish requires man hours so you have to budget them. If long hair man hour requirements are high it may be scrapped to allow them to complete higher priority projects

[Jestina]

You can't make excuses for their laziness with the CC. They've basically been using the same CC since 2009 with very little upgrading done to it.

[SofaJockey]

You can't make excuses for their laziness with the CC. They've basically been using the same CC since 2009 with very little upgrading done to it.

 

The CC is completely different because they are on Frostbite 3 now.

It's a game engine designed for grunts with shaved heads shooting things.

Of all the things to customise to the world of Dragon Age, hair was something that received base level attention this time, maybe next time.

[Phonantiphon]

I'd disagree on the crap hair, to be honest: 

I'm perfectly happy with it.

I reckon this is probably the best out-of-the box chargen I've used.

YMMV as always though.

[Steppenwolf]

That looks like plastic plugged into a doll's head.

[Phonantiphon]

That looks like plastic plugged into a doll's head.

It's the only shot I had and it's an artificially sharpened one at that.

But, it was more from the point of view that I like the hair than "Hey look at my character"! - Although that said, I like her, she's not supposed to be pretty.

[MrDaebak]

When people mention laziness with game design like this it usually shows they don't understand how any project works.

Each project has a budget. Of that budget an amount is allocated for employee wages. From that amount, based on local laws and employee salary, you can determine how many man hours you have to work on a project. Each task you accomplish requires man hours so you have to budget them. If long hair man hour requirements are high it may be scrapped to allow them to complete higher priority projects

 

you're right but it's published by EA, and EA tends to be rushing things (and screwing up games big time), I don't believe it's a budget problem.

[Phonantiphon]

Quoting "developer laziness" is the same as "it's broken", it's a lazy way of complaining without having to explain or justify your complaint.

IMHO - obv.

[SofaJockey]

you're right but it's published by EA, and EA tends to be rushing things (and screwing up games big time), I don't believe it's a budget problem.

 

Thanks for that in depth analysis.

You don't know then 

 

Let's examine what BioWare have said about adopting Frostbite 3.

 

Here are some excerpts from a guest blog post written by Jacques Lebrun, Technical Director at Bioware,

and posted on the Frostbite site, but the whole article is linked. This was posted in August last year.

 

The extracts in bold are my own emphasis done for the purposes of analysis.

 

"the Dragon Age team is ... putting the finishing touches on Inquisition, so [lets] look back at the long and arduous journey of getting to this point."

 

I think adapting Frostbite 3 for Dragon Age was tougher than they state openly.

 

"We [did] an independent evaluation of engine technologies. We ... chose Frostbite as our preferred technology. ... There was no corporate mandate; this was decided unanimously within our studio."

 

You don't say something this plainly when BSing, despite the convenience of an EA engine, I think this was a BioWare choice.

 

"We were also impressed by Frostbite’s capabilities for creating massive environments, with powerful terrain generation tools and flexible streaming options."

 

These things are clearly great in DAI - it shows.

Now here comes the 'but' in a longer extract...

 

 

"While Frostbite solved one set of problems for us, we were facing with a completely different set in building a story-focused RPG in the engine. It was initially designed for shooters, and we identified a number of additions required to support an RPG."

 

"BioWare games are known for ... characters and story through cinematics and interactive dialogue. We’ve spent years developing ... tools for writing and scripting conversations into a cinematic experience that interacts with a complex plot structure, while feeding into the pipeline for voice-over recording and localization."

 

"Many of these tools wouldn’t integrate with the Frostbite tool chain, so we rewrote them for the new framework. It was a massive undertaking ...

Another major undertaking was creating a next-generation RPG combat system.  . ..."

 

"If you look at the Venn diagram of everything you put into a fantasy RPG that isn’t in a modern shooter, the list is daunting: character statistics, character customization, melee combat, magical effects, items, crafting. Even a concept as simple as pausing the game during combat represented a difficult problem that hadn’t been solved in Frostbite yet."

 

So. 

• RPG Combat from scratch.
• The Character Creator, or significant parts of it, from scratch
• And a bunch of core stuff (including animals on 4 legs according to another source).

And a key piece of technical insight:

 

"We needed the discipline to resist design patterns developed from our previous titles and the rigor to carefully review every modification to engine code. Keeping our code in sync with the Frostbite development code required a massive effort, but it paid off in the critical updates we received from the Frostbite team: the majority of the next-generation platform code, continuous improvements to the toolset, and hundreds of cool features..."

 

 

TL:DR - basically BioWare are not running away with Frostbite 3 to make their own version (locking their version of Frostbite at that point),
they are upscaling Frostbite 3 so that it remains a supported engine including the BioWare compatible pieces. That also means BioWare can't just do some ad hoc development on the fly, fundamental development changes for Dragon Age means upgrade of Frostbite 3's capability or modules of it.

 

 

 

So what does that mean for hair?

 

BioWare have a new engine that has great environments and sea and waves and rain.

A bunch of stuff needed building from scratch including the Character Creator.

 

I think BioWare took hair only so far, because the priorities of combat and basic RPG systems were just more important in the time.

And to make hair better, you're not just making a hair mod,

you're upgrading Frostbite 3's Character Creator for future use by BioWare and others.

 

While we're on the subject, I imagine Frostbite 3 did not have an advanced Tactics mechanic, hence that's another feature

that might only have been built so far this time.

 

It's so easy to make an off the cuff comment about being 'lazy' because some features people like were in DAO and DA2

but I think the move to Frostbite was more complicated than that (reading between the lines of the dev article) and that does give

great potential for further advancements, it just doesn't give potential for quick fixes.

 

I'm hopeful.

 

The hair will flow in time.

[lichg]

Maybe they shouldnt have used this engine then...?

[Nimlowyn]

Thanks for that in depth analysis.

You don't know then 

 

-snip-

This post rules. Wish I wasn't outta likes.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I think BioWare took hair only so far, because the priorities of combat and basic RPG systems were just more important in the time.

Clearly Bioware doesn't understand their customer's priorities.

[MrDaebak]

Now now guys, time to retract those arms of yours. Good character customization is one of my customer priorities, since it's a role playing game, I really like it when I can make a character to my liking. I don't believe that the design of long hair was put aside for combat mechanics and what not, you have different teams for that stuff. The character customization feels more rushed than anything else in the game (not just of the hair).

 

All developers get a deadline from their publisher, I'm sure if EA had given them more time, it would've been done.

If time wasn't the issue, then it means we will never get decent hair even if DA4 (if it uses the same engine again).

[Phonantiphon]

This is a thread about hair, I mean seriously, how in depth does it need to be?!

[ToJKa1]

If you ask me, Qunari should have separate horns and hair settings.

[Poisd2Strike]

This is a thread about hair, I mean seriously, how in depth does it need to be?!

 

Obviously you haven't seen this...which is also about hair, specifically Qunari hair...151 pages, 3765 replies and counting...

 

But, it is good to know that my Female Human Mage had several variations of "buzzcut / almost bald" available.  I would have opted for that 1 long(ish) hairstyle available (the 1 with one side almost bald) had I been going for that "punk rock" look...but even that is barely shoulder length...

 

Hopefully, Bioware will make more hairstyle options available for DAI in the not-too-distant future...

[Hair Serious Business]

jesus christ that cc is insane!

 

good god i'm buying that game.

it's free MMO and it's still not out.

[pdusen]

Oh good. The hair-people are back.

[Phonantiphon]

The punk rock one is great.
On another note, I think the reason why you don't see much long hair in any game is simply due to the practicalities of meshes and clipping.
Even custom ones, for example modded ones for games I've never found a satisfactory mesh for loose hair, tied up yes.
I'd rather not have long hair that looks awkward, and I don't think the options are bad either to be honest, my character has the hair she deserves!

[Elfyoth]

The tarot card for the female Qunari looks like a huge lie now. I remember being over the top excited for making a Qunari inquisitor with a cool braid or epic dreads or something then the hair options are bald and really ugly hairbun. Wow.

And there should also be hair options for male inquisitor too, should they choose to make him hornless. And looking at how they're modeled, it's possible to have hair options even with horns. I mean, Sten's hair rows existed...

Braids and long ponytails are significantly easier to animate than loose hair. But no, they seem to be dedicated on their twenty minutes on helmet hair and buzz cut variations. I'll just be waiting here for mods... ;;

Go to the multyplayer mode, look at the dalish keeper's tarot card, and look at her and return

[Qun00]

Bioware can't animate long hair meaning longer than shoulder lenght. Why they couldn't animate shoulder lenght hair for qunaris is over me though.

In Dragon's Dogma, you not only get really long hair options, but it also moves when your character walks or runs.

And yet, a more advanced game like DA:I... can't do it.

[Felya87]

If you ask me, Qunari should have separate horns and hair settings.

 I agree. Is quite frustrating having to compromise "horns that I like, or that I don't like all that much but with hair that at least don't make my eyes bleed too much"

[TevinterSupremacist]

Because that could lead to amazonian cheesecake characters and that could be pandering to straight dudes AND THAT WOULD BE WORSE THAN PUTTING CHRISTMAS PRESENTS IN SOCKS THE DEVIL KNITTED!

 

.....

 

or you know, bioware never really managed hair exceptionally, hair with horns would be way too much for them....

[MikeJW]

I just don't think the engine can handle long hair. So you'll take your variations of bald/almost bald and enjoy it.