Does anyone else think its a possibility that Bioware will, game by game, soften their portrayal more and more, in order to see how many players will eventually tolerate, then accept, then embrace the Qun? As they leave the more 'distasteful' elements in the background, yet still active?
Because imo the Qun is monstrous.
The Qun already has supporters, it doesn't need softening. Iron Bull does a good job of showing someone who is conflicted with the Qun yet still genuinely sees good stuff in it.
There are things even strong supporters of the Qun do not agree with. But as Gatt says in Iron Bull's personal quest, if you aren't a part of it, there's nothing you can do to help change it.
I'd say it's entirely possible... after all, at least one of the writers has repeatedly made it clear that they'll make whatever changes to the lore they want to if they think it'll serve the story they wish to tell.
Do not trust Qun
Do not speak Qun
Kill Qun
Iron Bull isn't necessarily the end-all guide to the Qun's opinions on people and stuff. I know he's totally chill with transexuals, but he's totally chill with a lot of things that would probably get him re-educated if the Qun knew the half of it. (*cough*sleepingwithdorian,atevintermage*cough*)
Sten honestly is probably a better indicator of the Qun's philosophy than Iron Bull is. Unless there was something mentioned about Krem that came from a Qun source other than Iron Bull, which I might have missed, in which case I take this post back. >_>
Iron Bull isn't necessarily the end-all guide to the Qun's opinions on people and stuff. I know he's totally chill with transexuals, but he's totally chill with a lot of things that would probably get him re-educated if the Qun knew the half of it. (*cough*sleepingwithdorian,atevintermage*cough*)
Sten honestly is probably a better indicator of the Qun's philosophy than Iron Bull is. Unless there was something mentioned about Krem that came from a Qun source other than Iron Bull, which I might have missed, in which case I take this post back. >_>
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I don't even plan on playing newer games yet. I still like the series, but a little.. undecided. As for the Qun, they could butter it up a dozen ways to make it seem better, but in principle, I wouldn't care for it. It's founded on the kind of idealism I already disagree with in reality (sort of a Platonic idealism). If people don't already know what they like/dislike philosophically, they're the perfect types to be enticed by it. It's there to give people answers and certainty when they have none.
I don't mind them being more gender friendly. I mean they are pretty bad anyways with all the mage abuse, warmongering and brainwashing.
I'm amazed you think they softened the Qun...remember that conversation about re-educators? That's some Big Brother ****. Even me, a diehard Qun fanboy, thinks that's all kinds of messed up.
Soften? Sten is Arishok now. If Sten found out IB spent his time sleeping around with Tevinter men, getting drunk all the time IB would personally become a victim to Sten's Blade. Im sure finding out about Bull's circus of a mercenary group pissed off Sten big time as it is.
Well he says they have a word for them and seems to imply the Qunari sees them as the gender they identify as. ("They ARE men.") Definitely not very in line with what Sten said.
Yeah I guess you're right. Probably just changed things around a bit then to bring the game into a more "We ♥ all our player minorities no matter what!" since DA:O.
That said, Iron Bull could single handedly convert me to his version of the Qun any day. But his version is definitely not the version, and Lord Marcus is quite right, Sten would probably off Iron Bull himself, even without him going rogue.
What could be considered "softening" of the Qun in DA:I, is that you could actually talk to people about the Qun's ideals. In DA2, as much as I was interested in the Qun, all you got out of the Arishok is, "It's too deep for you to understand."
As long as play mage characters and love them though, the Qun and I will just never work. :|
Soften? Sten is Arishok now. If Sten found out IB spent his time sleeping around with Tevinter men, getting drunk all the time IB would personally become a victim to Sten's Blade. Im sure finding out about Bull's circus of a mercenary group pissed off Sten big time as it is.
Why would Sten be pissed off? Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath who falls under the jurisdiction of the Ariqun not the Arishok.
In regards to Iron Bull, he should be a "living insult" to the Qun since he is a mercenary. The Arishok in DA2 despises the concept of selling your blade for coin, and yet here Bull is, not only being a mercenary but a mercenary who was told by the Qun to do so. Makes no sense.
@ OP, the Qun is loathsome no matter how they try to spin it.
In regards to Iron Bull, he should be a "living insult" to the Qun since he is a mercenary. The Arishok in DA2 despises the concept of selling you blade for coin, and yet here Bull is, not only being a mercenary but a mercenary who was told by the Qun to do so. Makes no sense.
@ OP, the Qun is loathsome no matter how they try to spin it.
Iron Bull is under cover as Tal-vashoth. He didn't pick his cover story, they sent him towards it. It's less about him being a mercenary, and more about how much he enjoyed being one and the lifestyle it brought that is the problem they'd have with him. The difference between him being re-educated, or executed. Although Bull is too good at what he does for them to discard him, so re-education would pretty much be his guaranteed fate.
The Qun is just a modified form of Confucianism.
As Bull and the elf he knows say, the thing about the Qun is that it answers a lot of questions for some people, and they acknowledge that it'd be pretty depressing if everyone was forced to adhere to it.
My view is that the Qun has some valid ideas that I agree with, but as a whole, its ruined by the thought police behind it and the need for it to be pervasive everywhere. It'd be better if they weren't so driven to make everyone follow it. That said, I think the Qunari aren't nearly as powerful or numerous as they let on. As Bull implies, they're an offshoot of some greater society up North that is arguably a lot more barbaric. I wouldn't be surprised if the Qun is rather limited.
Iron Bull is under cover as Tal-vashoth. He didn't pick his cover story, they sent him towards it. It's less about him being a mercenary, and more about how much he enjoyed being one and the lifestyle it brought that is the problem they'd have with him. The difference between him being re-educated, or executed. Although Bull is too good at what he does for them to discard him, so re-education would pretty much be his guaranteed fate.
Yeah, and it makes no sense for them to do so. "Living insult to the Qun" is a pretty hefty stance on the mercenary trade. Why on earth would they tell one of their people to do it.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Yeah, and it makes no sense for them to do so. "Living insult to the Qun" is a pretty hefty stance on the mercenary trade. Why on earth would they tell one of their people to do it.
I thought the living insult was because of the added fact of being Tal Vashoth. Sten talks in similar terms in DAO... he can't even acknowledge them as people.
Only example of the Qun being softened I can think of is them suddenly being completely cool with transsexuals.
Meanwhile, Sten basically said my Warden 'wanting to be a man' would lead to nothing but frustration. That seemed..kind of out of nowhere.
Sorry if this can of worms shouldn't have been opened, but...
Yeah, and it makes no sense for them to do so. "Living insult to the Qun" is a pretty hefty stance on the mercenary trade. Why on earth would they tell one of their people to do it.
The Ben-Hassrath don't half-ass anything, and the only way to make people really sure he couldn't possibly be a spy, is to make their spy something so completely detestable to them that no one would see it coming? 
Now if only they could stop Bull from saying, "HEY GUYZ BTW IM A SPY." They'd really be on to something. I think this is why they usually send elves/humans out into the world instead of qunari.
Well he says they have a word for them and seems to imply the Qunari sees them as the gender they identify as. ("They ARE men.") Definitely not very in line with what Sten said.
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