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[Icy Magebane]

Yeah, and it makes no sense for them to do so. "Living insult to the Qun" is a pretty hefty stance on the mercenary trade. Why on earth would they tell one of their people to do it. 

Probably because attempting to pose as a Chantry brother would be more than a little suspicious.  Qunari don't have a lot of options for securing work in southern Thedas, so this is probably the best solution they could come up with.  It also lets him get close to influential people to get information from, since nobles tend to be the ones hiring mercenaries.

[sandalisthemaker]

I thought the living insult was because of the added fact of being Tal Vashoth. Sten talks in similar terms in DAO... he can't even acknowledge them as people.

 

 

 

Arishok is pretty "whatev" about the Tal-Vashoth.  He says "we lose nothing when weakness abandons the Qun. It is the Talvashoth who have lost themselves." 

 

It's only when Hawke says he met an 'honorable one' who was a mercenary that he uses the term living insult.

 

"When they sell themselves, little remains. He (Maraas) is not even dead to the Qun. He is a living insult."

 

It just seems like a contradiction in my eyes for Bull to be a mercenary.  I would have greatly preferred that he remained the Tal-Vashoth that he was in the leaked survey.

[Sah291]

Does anyone else think its a possibility that Bioware will, game by game, soften their portrayal more and more, in order to see how many players will eventually tolerate, then accept, then embrace the Qun? As they leave the more 'distasteful' elements in the background, yet still active?

 

Because imo the Qun is monstrous.

 

Yeah I do...and I think those who don't like the Chantry, are going to suddenly have a newfound appreciation for the Chantry. 

 

But seriously, if they develop a major plot dealing with the Qunari, they will have to. Just like if we go to Tevinter, not all mages there are going to be portrayed as bloodthirsty magisters. 

[RobRam10]

Yeah I do...and I think those who don't like the Chantry, are going to suddenly have a newfound appreciation for the Chantry. 

 

But seriously, if they develop a major plot dealing with the Qunari, they will have to. Just like if we go to Tevinter, not all mages there are going to be portrayed as bloodthirsty magisters. 

That is because we will serve the true Chantry not the backwater Orlesian one.

[In Exile]

Arishok is pretty "whatev" about the Tal-Vashoth. He says "we lose nothing when weakness abandons the Qun. It is the Talvashoth who have lost themselves."

It's only when Hawke says he met an 'honorable one' who was a mercenary that he uses the term living insult.

"When they sell themselves, little remains. He (Maraas) is not even dead to the Qun. He is a living insult."

It just seems like a contradiction in my eyes for Bull to be a mercenary. I would have greatly preferred that he remained the Tal-Vashoth that he was in the leaked survey.

He's not whatever about it. He's saying that the very thing that makes you Qunari will keep you from never deviating from your role. It's the same kind of fantasy/hypocrisy that defines his character throughout DA2. It's what makes him so phenomenal.

[Han Shot First]

They didn't soften their portrayal. The Qunari in DAI set up the IB to test his loyalty: leave his team to die or abandoned the Qun as a traitor. That's monstrous. Plus the IB being quite honest about what the Qun will do to some.

 

The Iron Bull ordering his company to hold isn't really monstrous though. All military leaders in war have to put their men in peril. It's part of the awesome responsibility of being in command. While the well being of the people under your command is important, it is always a secondary to accomplishing the mission. If Leonidas had been more like The Iron Bull when you go the Tal Vashoth/Save the Chargers route, the Persians would have overrun Greece.

 

I don't care for the Qun and my canon Inquisitor was a human noble and a devout Andrastian, so not too pro-Qun either. But I had the Inquisitor convince the Iron Bull to have the Chargers hold their ground, because I didn't think there was any sound military reasoning for pulling the Chargers back. Saving the Chargers boils down to choosing friends over the mission.

[SwobyJ]

I'm amazed you think they softened the Qun...remember that conversation about re-educators?  That's some Big Brother ****.  Even me, a diehard Qun fanboy, thinks that's all kinds of messed up.  

 

I'm talking relatively here.

 

In DAI, there's more of a tone that "Hey, maybe you might WANT to be reeducated. Maybe YOU would SUBMIT yourself to it, for both the good of the Qun and for your needless suffering."

 

I'm not saying the Qun is being promoted, but more that they're actually presenting it as a choice to even remotely support, whereas in DAO was more 'stand and listen to Sten' and DA2 was 'ahh, okay, well that sounds crazy', at best.

[SwobyJ]

The Qun is just a modified form of Confucianism. 

 

As Bull and the elf he knows say, the thing about the Qun is that it answers a lot of questions for some people, and they acknowledge that it'd be pretty depressing if everyone was forced to adhere to it.

 

My view is that the Qun has some valid ideas that I agree with, but as a whole, its ruined by the thought police behind it and the need for it to be pervasive everywhere. It'd be better if they weren't so driven to make everyone follow it. That said, I think the Qunari aren't nearly as powerful or numerous as they let on. As Bull implies, they're an offshoot of some greater society up North that is arguably a lot more barbaric. I wouldn't be surprised if the Qun is rather limited.

I found it to be a mix of the more loathsome parts of Confucianism, Islam*, and Communism, with a few unique plusses due to its presence in the Dragon Age world that can truly be too chaotic to deal with, especially with magic and dragons. We can be so annoyed at even the Qun existing, but also understand that it does give a number of people a guidance (or slavery) that may be welcomed by them compared to other possible ways they could have lived their lives on Thedas. Especially when you think about the elves in more abject slavery and the possibility of horned Qunari being madness-prone dragon offshoots (just theory though, so far).

 

(*Don't even start. I have both positive and negative views on every major religion and many minor ones.)

 

I agree with your post though.

[AshesEleven]

I'm talking relatively here.

 

In DAI, there's more of a tone that "Hey, maybe you might WANT to be reeducated. Maybe YOU would SUBMIT yourself to it, for both the good of the Qun and for your needless suffering."

 

I'm not saying the Qun is being promoted, but more that they're actually presenting it as a choice to even remotely support, whereas in DAO was more 'stand and listen to Sten' and DA2 was 'ahh, okay, well that sounds crazy', at best.

 

Part of that is because the central conflict for the Iron Bull, the only qunari character, was his gradual loss of faith in the Qun.  He's trying to convince himself and you.

 

Another part is that I think they're setting up a choice in the future, choose the Qun or not.  Something like that.  

[SwobyJ]

Yeah I do...and I think those who don't like the Chantry, are going to suddenly have a newfound appreciation for the Chantry. 

 

But seriously, if they develop a major plot dealing with the Qunari, they will have to. Just like if we go to Tevinter, not all mages there are going to be portrayed as bloodthirsty magisters. 

 

I feel:

-They first showed the basics of the world (DAO)

-Then they showed how gone to crap things in Thedas are/can be at their worst, with mages/templars, Chantry, Tevinter, Qunari, more (DA2)

-Then they softened mages and templars by comparing them to Chantry oppression/control (DAI)

-Then they softened Chantry (and may continue to in the next game) by comparing it to Tevinter

 

But:

-Next they'll soften Tevinter by comparing it to Qunari and more

-*AND* at some point, they'll even soften Qunari by comparing it to other unknown forces, dilemmas, etc. They may, in some way, illustrate how Qunari, to whatever extent, may be needed/may have been needed for something else, and that there may be compelling reasons for at least your character to align with it to some extent.

 

So far, Bioware can scratch off Templars, Mages, Grey Wardens, and Chantry. They got it covered. They have material there for even the original haters of the Chantry to go "Okay, I understand that it has a role." at least.

 

I'm concerned about Bioware doing that for Qunari. That's where I draw my line. It disgusts me sooo much.

[SwobyJ]

Part of that is because the central conflict for the Iron Bull, the only qunari character, was his gradual loss of faith in the Qun.  He's trying to convince himself and you.

 

Another part is that I think they're setting up a choice in the future, choose the Qun or not.  Something like that.  

 

True. What I often see as a softening of the tone of the Qun story, can also be seen as a hardening of the torment it can put on someone who has a big part of himself wanting to be free.

 

Bioware will have to try soooo hard to get me to pick 'Qun'. However, I don't even want them to. I'm even more pro-Reaper than Qun. Really.

 

Maybe if they let me upend most of the workings of the Qun, I guess. They at least have allowed:

-Warden to make factional reforms in Ferelden

-Hawke to make personal reforms with his friends/rivals

-Inquisitor to make regional reforms throughout southern Thedas, especially the Chantry

 

But I'd need to be able to REALLY mess with the Qun if I were to pick it. I'd sooner die before submitting to the Qun, even hypothetically IRL, unlike every other major faction.

[Jestina]

Some of seems to be to make it more palatable to players.

Like...

I remember in DA:O it was. "Women do not fight." Now it's...well women fight but they are considered men.

[AshesEleven]

True. What I often see as a softening of the tone of the Qun story, can also be seen as a hardening of the torment it can put on someone who has a big part of himself wanting to be free.

 

Bioware will have to try soooo hard to get me to pick 'Qun'. However, I don't even want them to. I'm even more pro-Reaper than Qun. Really.

 

Maybe if they let me upend most of the workings of the Qun, I guess. They at least have allowed:

-Warden to make factional reforms in Ferelden

-Hawke to make personal reforms with his friends/rivals

-Inquisitor to make regional reforms throughout southern Thedas, especially the Chantry

 

But I'd need to be able to REALLY mess with the Qun if I were to pick it. I'd sooner die before submitting to the Qun, even hypothetically IRL, unlike every other major faction.

 

Everyone's got different priorities, I suppose.  As the person I am, right now, if a Qun-like thing suddenly came across converting, yeah I'd be against that.  For people in Thedas though, I do believe that the Qun can provide a better life for many of them, most specifically peasants and the like.

 

That said, the Qun is also really terrifying and nasty.  The Qunari are definitely antagonists.  

[SwobyJ]

Some of seems to be to make it more palatable to players.

Like...

I remember in DA:O it was. "Women do not fight." Now it's...well women fight but they are considered men.

 

I think Bioware just considers than an 'expansion' of the lore.

 

If the Warden called herself a man and continued to act in that sort of gender definition, Sten might have accepted it.

 

And Sten was smartly written to NOT be there to explain everything Qun, but simply introduce us to his version and extent that he wished to explain it. Which was rather limited.

 

Its a tricky issue but I also understand the Qun to be a rather 'new' kind of thing to put in a fantasy IP and the possible wish by BW to figure out what it even is, over years.

[SwobyJ]

Everyone's got different priorities, I suppose.  As the person I am, right now, if a Qun-like thing suddenly came across converting, yeah I'd be against that.  For people in Thedas though, I do believe that the Qun can provide a better life for many of them, most specifically peasants and the like.

 

That said, the Qun is also really terrifying and nasty.  The Qunari are definitely antagonists.  

 

Taken just as vessels, yeah, it can be understood that 'everyone', if they were born into Qun, would view their lives better than in this known timeline of them not being in the Qun. And we seemingly have learned enough to know that Qunari, overall, have a better quality of life compared to most of Thedas.

 

There are still many Qunari that just toss their lives away in the service of the Qun, but we also see that in the rest of Thedas by people in service of other things - they just have more individual choice open to them about it.

 

The Qun presents the question - is choice worth it, especially if it is illusory?

 

Personally, I say yes. Choice is necessary in order to challenge ideas further and further and force them to improve.

 

Even the Qun is challenged by other ideas/events/etc, and forced to adjust to new realities (like in their first failed push southward). I just think and hope that at some point, the Qun itself is challenged to the point of breaking. I consider it inferior for its purpose, and beyond reform.

 

And yeah, I know this'd mean a lot of aimless Tal-Vashoth/Ex-Qunari after its all done. Oh well. I'd encourage many assistance centers for them, but wouldn't go so far as the 're-education' that the Qun did.
 

[LadyJaneGrey]

Part of that is because the central conflict for the Iron Bull, the only qunari character, was his gradual loss of faith in the Qun.  He's trying to convince himself and you.
 
Another part is that I think they're setting up a choice in the future, choose the Qun or not.  Something like that.

I suppose they could be setting it up a Tevinter's magisterium fueled by blood sacrifices from slaves vs Qunari where everyone's brain-washed and all the mages are bound and have their mouths sewn shut...

But, as others have said, that's going to be a really hard sell.

[NoForgiveness]

What? I don't see it getting softer or anything really. It's meant to have good parts and bad parts. I think they've done a pretty consistent job of showing that.

[SwobyJ]

I just wouldn't play if your fears came true. DA would be dead to me, just like Mass Effect. lol. Not sure why the faction was made other than to be monsters. And they haven't really delivered on that either.

 

I can see the Qun as being a 'necessary evil' against several things known and unknown-so-far, actually.

 

Monsters they may be, but many mythologies included monsters that were necessary to guard the gates of hell.