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[scrutinizer]

Right so because you saw the guy saying, get me 10 poisons in a cut scene you liked it more? What you missed was that a lot of those also had no dialog, choices or cut scenes. Chanters boards were notes. Mage collective, blackwater, crows, favors for parties all notes and add all those up and you get a large proportion of the DAO side quests. Topsiders honor was a note. Asunder was, a note if that I think if even that. I've read the posts and they are filled with the usual hazy blissful recollections of DAO that don't match reality. The box and trail signs had no dialog. Several things in the Roads like Asunder and Topsiders honor had no dialog. The pages quests, both, in the tower had no dialog. They all also had no choices and I don't think anyone who gave you those quests is all that memorable.

 

:rubs hands:

 

DA:O vanilla features 106 side quests. 32 (actually 31) of the 106 are Chantry board, favors, Mage's collective, and the Blackstone Irregulars quests. The quests people think are bare fetch/kill with no dialogue. That's 30% of all side quests (is this a large part?). Let's take a look at them:

Chantry:

7 total

1 shameless fetch quests (though quick and easy), x3 fight the darkspawn that killed civilians(unlocks new, small locations, max 10 minutes each.), x3 connected to the story/major characters (out of which two are previous-choice specific).

Blackstone Irregulars:

6 total

1 shameless fetch quest (quick and easy if you willing to give up poultices), x4 find/deliver quests (out of which 1 equals a fight quest) - all done along the way of completing the main quest (pretty much, you don't need to detract for long), 1 fight quest where you choose the fate of Irregulars, influencing their future leadership

The Mage's Collective:

10 total

x3 shameless fetch quests (though one is connected to Blood Magic, a weighty topic in DA:O, and another one is reactive to your choices and gives you insight about mages-templars connections; all can be completed 'along the way', minimal detracting), x3 find/deliver quests (as with many other such quest, these are done along the way; minimal detracting), x2 kill quests (both give you insight about magic), 1 kill/pickpocket/persuade/let go quest (new location, few minutes maximum), 1 choose the fate of the Collective quest

Favors:

9 total (actually 8)

x3 shameless fetch quests (Love Letters are funny, though easy to overlook; 'completed along the way' minimal to some detracting), x2 find quests (one is dumping bodies. Who doesn't like that? found along the way), x2 kill quests (few minutes maximum), 1 kill quest that solves the whole Favors affair, you either choosing D or K quests; cannot do both, both 10-15 minutes max.

 

That's 8 fetch quests, out of 31 'board' type of quests which is ~25%. Most of them can be completed right away or with minimal engagement. All of the 'boards' quests can be completed in a matter of few minutes, except for the progressive ones, which require you to travel around and find certain points of interest - these points are on the main quest's path anyway, so you don't need to spend much time finding them. Some of them have dialogues, even multiple ways to complete them, and making a proper choice. Most importantly, they are short, can be completed quickly, and rewards the player with precious gold or items. These are far from what many people recall as bare fetch/kill quests. They are not super-awesome. But they are better than the DA:I counterparts.

 

In Ostagar, despite the Mabari quest (which you can complete along the way with minimal effort, and it nets you a companion; unless you choose to put the dog down - an option), there is The Hungry Deserter quest - a minor one, yet it offers several approaches (steal, buy, convince, kill) and this is exactly what you want from a side quest.

In Korcari Wilds - all of the quests are initiated without any input from NPC (as there are none), two have you finding a cache with valuables (and some proper early game equipment), one has you delivering a box to the wife of the deceased (unless you choose to take its contents). Not great quests, mind you, but sufficient (and not at all time-consuming) in their role of side activities (with rewards) when you are looking for the Warden treaties.

Lothering? Sure, deliver the amulet - how long does that take you? All of the board quests take you about 10 minutes to complete. Traps/poison/healing flesh out the location and the sense of desperation. They can be completed right away. You also have highway bandits (and a choice what to do: pay, lie, intimidate, kill, let go, demand they pay you instead, and I think you can even tell them to help your cause) and Sten (multiple way to complete the quest [intimidating Revered Mother for the win!], which nets you a companion, can leave him). All of these quest are your short, easy distractions from the main story. 

 

This isn't saying DAO was bad (fear not) but that people need to really recall that there was a lot of filler stuff that was cRPG grunt work just like in DAI and the total of "good" quests was a lot lower as a percentage than you recall but you only really recall the good ones. It is like watching people talk about music today and how it isn't good...because they forgot all the dreck that 1974 had to offer.

No. The percentages are not lower than I recall. If you really compare 'the grunt work' of DA:I to DA:O and claim they are on the similar level, then I doubt you've played these games at all. If you have played them, then Dominic_910 is right - you are missing the point.

 

Another person who completely misses the point. Of course Oigins had fetch quests but it also had quests with choices, cutscenes and memorable characters. If you read other people's comments you would know the difference between the side quests in inquisition and every other bioware game but it seems you'd rather go with the  "but origins had fetch quests too" line that is becoming very predictable.

 

Peace.

[Dominic_910]

:rubs hands:

 

DA:O vanilla features 106 side quests. 32 (actually 31) of the 106 are Chantry board, favors, Mage's collective, and the Blackstone Irregulars quests. The quests people think are bare fetch/kill with no dialogue. That's 30% of all side quests (is this a large part?). Let's take a look at them:

Chantry:

7 total

1 shameless fetch quests (though quick and easy), x3 fight the darkspawn that killed civilians(unlocks new, small locations, max 10 minutes each.), x3 connected to the story/major characters (out of which two are previous-choice specific).

Blackstone Irregulars:

6 total

1 shameless fetch quest (quick and easy if you willing to give up poultices), x4 find/deliver quests (out of which 1 equals a fight quest) - all done along the way of completing the main quest (pretty much, you don't need to detract for long), 1 fight quest where you choose the fate of Irregulars, influencing their future leadership

The Mage's Collective:

10 total

x3 shameless fetch quests (though one is connected to Blood Magic, a weighty topic in DA:O, and another one is reactive to your choices and gives you insight about mages-templars connections; all can be completed 'along the way', minimal detracting), x3 find/deliver quests (as with many other such quest, these are done along the way; minimal detracting), x2 kill quests (both give you insight about magic), 1 kill/pickpocket/persuade/let go quest (new location, few minutes maximum), 1 choose the fate of the Collective quest

Favors:

9 total (actually 8)

x3 shameless fetch quests (Love Letters are funny, though easy to overlook; 'completed along the way' minimal to some detracting), x2 find quests (one is dumping bodies. Who doesn't like that? found along the way), x2 kill quests (few minutes maximum), 1 kill quest that solves the whole Favors affair, you either choosing D or K quests; cannot do both, both 10-15 minutes max.

 

That's 8 fetch quests, out of 31 'board' type of quests which is ~25%. Most of them can be completed right away or with minimal engagement. All of the 'boards' quests can be completed in a matter of few minutes, except for the progressive ones, which require you to travel around and find certain points of interest - these points are on the main quest's path anyway, so you don't need to spend much time finding them. Some of them have dialogues, even multiple ways to complete them, and making a proper choice. Most importantly, they are short, can be completed quickly, and rewards the player with precious gold or items. These are far from what many people recall as bare fetch/kill quests. They are not super-awesome. But they are better than the DA:I counterparts.

 

In Ostagar, despite the Mabari quest (which you can complete along the way with minimal effort, and it nets you a companion; unless you choose to put the dog down - an option), there is The Hungry Deserter quest - a minor one, yet it offers several approaches (steal, buy, convince, kill) and this is exactly what you want from a side quest.

In Korcari Wilds - all of the quests are initiated without any input from NPC (as there are none), two have you finding a cache with valuables (and some proper early game equipment), one has you delivering a box to the wife of the deceased (unless you choose to take its contents). Not great quests, mind you, but sufficient (and not at all time-consuming) in their role of side activities (with rewards) when you are looking for the Warden treaties.

Lothering? Sure, deliver the amulet - how long does that take you? All of the board quests take you about 10 minutes to complete. Traps/poison/healing flesh out the location and the sense of desperation. They can be completed right away. You also have highway bandits (and a choice what to do: pay, lie, intimidate, kill, let go, demand they pay you instead, and I think you can even tell them to help your cause) and Sten (multiple way to complete the quest [intimidating Revered Mother for the win!], which nets you a companion, can leave him). All of these quest are your short, easy distractions from the main story. 

 

No. The percentages are not lower than I recall. If you really compare 'the grunt work' of DA:I to DA:O and claim they are on the similar level, then I doubt you've played these games at all. If you have played them, then Dominic_910 is right - you are missing the point.

 

 

Peace.

Damn i love you, you said it better than i ever could.

[scrutinizer]

And to follow-up.

Even if we agree that the foundation of side quests of DA:O and DA:I is the same, the structure of the two games is vastly different. DA:O had small locations, which made fetch/find/kill/deliver quests quick to complete, and requiring minimal effort to do so. DA:I has huge locations and the points of interests are scattered around, often in places which are tough to access. The abundance of such quests make them a terrible chore. You enter a new zone and, upon realizing that you are up for another round of running/jumping like crazy, you get depressed and the desire to play the game is drained proportionally to the amount of side quests still awaiting you (sorry, but the pretty visuals don't impress me, they do not enhance the gameplay mechanics, and certainly they do not reduce nor make up for the tediousness stemming from the game. As I always say: they are pretty, but useless).

 

But the foundation is not the same. Whereas many DA:O quests offer you various approaches and choices to make as you complete the quest (notice that I'm not even talking about whether the quest itself is interesting), in DA:I these precious quests are few and far between. Even if you stumble upon a more 'content-oriented' one, it is not really meaningful as it does not influence the story.

 

Disappointment all around.

[Sidney]

I Always love people who abuse stats. My being specific about only fetch being pointless drivel you try and neatly dodge the boring, vanilla drudge work quest question by being hyper-technical. It isn't just fetch quests, delivering notices isn't fetch but it is still pointless and uninteresting. You also ignore all the non-collective/black stone/chanter quests, the scraps of paper in the tower for example. In other words, there is a lot of filler in DAO as well.

The one place you are correct, and not even technically correct but really correct, is that most everything happens along the way in DAO. Asunder is a crap quest that in DAI would have me running all over the storm coast or something to find parts. This is why I am not a huge fan of open worlds, because it takes away focus. Skyrim is a nasty swarm of not related to anything dungeons and quests. theWitcher 2 which shares the limited open world of DAI has the same thing (thinking of stuff like the rot fiend gargoyle contracts and Lost Lambs sorta stuff) in terms of regions with things to do that, frankly,I'm shouldn't be wasting my time doing given how important the main quest is. That structural changes makes the filler feel a lot worse in DAI than DAO not the fact that there's not a ton of filler in both.

I see in the post above mine you making the same point I do in my latter paragraph. It is really the core of why filler feels different.

[dlux]

DA:O and DA:2 have real side quests witch choices, cutscenes and story. DA:I don't. less quality quests is better than more quantity quests.

Yep. Game designing rule number one: Quality > Quantity. Do it right or don't do it all.

 

Skyrim and Assassin's Creed (which largely influenced DA:I) have terribly designed side quests resp. side content but still sold very well. I guess Bioware thought it would be a great idea to design side content in the exact same way, while completely ignoring the fact that many gamers complain about the lackluster side content in those games.

[Reymoose]

 

The Mage's Collective:

10 total

x3 shameless fetch quests (though one is connected to Blood Magic, a weighty topic in DA:O, and another one is reactive to your choices and gives you insight about mages-templars connections; all can be completed 'along the way', minimal detracting), x3 find/deliver quests (as with many other such quest, these are done along the way; minimal detracting), x2 kill quests (both give you insight about magic), 1 kill/pickpocket/persuade/let go quest (new location, few minutes maximum), 1 choose the fate of the Collective quest

Favors:

9 total (actually 8)

x3 shameless fetch quests (Love Letters are funny, though easy to overlook; 'completed along the way' minimal to some detracting), x2 find quests (one is dumping bodies. Who doesn't like that? found along the way), x2 kill quests (few minutes maximum), 1 kill quest that solves the whole Favors affair, you either choosing D or K quests; cannot do both, both 10-15 minutes max.

 

That's 8 fetch quests, out of 31 'board' type of quests which is ~25%. Most of them can be completed right away or with minimal engagement. All of the 'boards' quests can be completed in a matter of few minutes, except for the progressive ones, which require you to travel around and find certain points of interest - these points are on the main quest's path anyway, so you don't need to spend much time finding them. Some of them have dialogues, even multiple ways to complete them, and making a proper choice. Most importantly, they are short, can be completed quickly, and rewards the player with precious gold or items. These are far from what many people recall as bare fetch/kill quests. They are not super-awesome. But they are better than the DA:I counterparts.

 

You've stated it more eloquently than I could, but I just had to bold these parts. It sometimes feels like you have to hammer this concept when people compare DA:O side-quests vs. DA:I side-quests, and the fundamental difference is this.

 

One of the most blatant off-the-track side-quests in DA:O that I remember is the "Lyrium Smuggling" quest you get in Dust Town to the Circle Tower, and at best it's 5 minutes worth of work of running and map changes, but the reward is worth it as you can net yourself up to 25 (iirc) gold. 

 

I Always love people who abuse stats. My being specific about only fetch being pointless drivel you try and neatly dodge the boring, vanilla drudge work quest question by being hyper-technical. It isn't just fetch quests, delivering notices isn't fetch but it is still pointless and uninteresting. You also ignore all the non-collective/black stone/chanter quests, the scraps of paper in the tower for example. In other words, there is a lot of filler in DAO as well.

The one place you are correct, and not even technically correct but really correct, is that most everything happens along the way in DAO. 

 

'Along the way', 'along the way', 'along the way'. The fundamental difference that allows you or gives you the option to overlook filler is that it *is* along the way.

[Sidney]

 

 
'Along the way', 'along the way', 'along the way'. The fundamental difference that allows you or gives you the option to overlook filler is that it *is* along the way.

Agree, now the question is would you give up the semi open world of DAI to go back to the more "usual" Bioware structure where things are on the way. I would for example but that open world and exploration were do big to so many folks.

[AlanC9]

The one place you are correct, and not even technically correct but really correct, is that most everything happens along the way in DAO. Asunder is a crap quest that in DAI would have me running all over the storm coast or something to find parts. This is why I am not a huge fan of open worlds, because it takes away focus. Skyrim is a nasty swarm of not related to anything dungeons and quests. theWitcher 2 which shares the limited open world of DAI has the same thing (thinking of stuff like the rot fiend gargoyle contracts and Lost Lambs sorta stuff) in terms of regions with things to do that, frankly,I'm shouldn't be wasting my time doing given how important the main quest is. That structural changes makes the filler feel a lot worse in DAI than DAO not the fact that there's not a ton of filler in both.

So the real problem is the open-world approach, right? Yeah, I concur. BG1 wasn't really my favorite RPG design in the first place.

[scrutinizer]

I Always love people who abuse stats. 

Abuse? You said 'Chanters boards were notes. Mage collective, blackwater, crows, favors for parties all notes and add all those up and you get a large proportion of the DAO side quests' and I merely gave you the numbers. You cannot argue with math.

 

My being specific about only fetch being pointless drivel you try and neatly dodge the boring, vanilla drudge work quest question by being hyper-technical. It isn't just fetch quests, delivering notices isn't fetch but it is still pointless and uninteresting. 

I don't know. Delivering notices was a part of Blacstone questilne, which is concluded by a choice. Any information you get about the Irregulars along the way allows you to make a more educated choice. May be uninteresting (then thank anyone you believe in they don't require time and effort), but not pointless, as you gain money for completion.

 

You also ignore all the non-collective/black stone/chanter quests, the scraps of paper in the tower for example. In other words, there is a lot of filler in DAO as well.

You mean the Circle of Magi side quests? There are three and not so pointless - the first has you uncover the backstory behind a scam (quite amusing, as the tricked cricle mage thinks he's about to 'own kings'), which leads to an encounter on the road and some fighting. In the second quest, you need to solve little puzzles to summon creatures, then fight them, and then it triggers another 'board' type quest. Third quest has you collecting notes again, then solving a little puzzle and then fighting a mini-boss. Keep in mind there are no NPCs in the Tower (beside Wynne and demons) to give you side quests, so they pretty much auto initiate and therefore don't have your regular side-quest structure (of different approaches/choices possible). Above all, they are completed along the way and require a few minutes for completion.

 

 theWitcher 2 which shares the limited open world of DAI has the same thing (thinking of stuff like the rot fiend gargoyle contracts and Lost Lambs sorta stuff) in terms of regions with things to do that, frankly,I'm shouldn't be wasting my time doing given how important the main quest is. 

No. I've already covered that:

http://forum.bioware...1#entry18240835

 

 

Agree, now the question is would you give up the semi open world of DAI to go back to the more "usual" Bioware structure where things are on the way. I would for example but that open world and exploration were do big to so many folks.

I would, but Bioware would not. Open world equals sales today, and sales equal money.

 

So the real problem is the open-world approach, right? Yeah, I concur. BG1 wasn't really my favorite RPG design in the first place.

It is a considerable problem, which spawns many others. It makes me worried for The Witcher 3.

 

Peace.

[Maverick827]

The thing is that:

1. DAI isn't even open world. It's still modular, only the modules are bigger this time around.

2. The exoration is so sterile. There's nothing to find but icons on a map. You just check things off. When you enter a new zone, you know that you need to "explore" for landmarks, shards, and quests. The game already gives you icons for camps, and an icon for the main quest of the zone.

There was more exploration in Ocarina of Time than in DAI.

[Reymoose]

So the real problem is the open-world approach, right? Yeah, I concur. BG1 wasn't really my favorite RPG design in the first place.

 

The thing is that:

1. DAI isn't even open world. It's still modular, only the modules are bigger this time around.

2. The exoration is so sterile. There's nothing to find but icons on a map. You just check things off. When you enter a new zone, you know that you need to "explore" for landmarks, shards, and quests. The game already gives you icons for camps, and an icon for the main quest of the zone.

 

The problem isn't the open world, as it isn't a true open world in that everything is very static, but that Bioware has done the most derivative 'MMO' type approach to open world. 

 

One of the ways you do open world right is emergent gameplay.

 

For example, in Far Cry 4, as many faults as that game has, has amazing emergent gameplay. You could attack an convoy, do your normal gun battle, and have a rhino come out of nowhere and ram every vehicle then a tiger can show up and attack the enemies. Doesn't happen like that very often, but when it does, it's fun and much more so than collecting the 200+ items scattered around the game.

 

If Ubisoft can learn from it's own emergent gameplay (possible, we'll see) then the next iteration of that series would be much better for it.

 

Skyrim had similar experiences, mostly through mods. I remember I had a mod that enabled giants to spawn near Falkreath, a town to the south in Skyrim. I lured the giants into the town, the guardmen/npc's went haywire and then a dragon showed up. So within 10 minutes I had a dragon fighting giants who were clubbing guardsmen into the sky.

[loralius]

I think Bioware got the message when people everywhere clamored for more freedom outside of a linear story and their answer was showering us in side quests - which in principle was a great move.

 

The execution was off the mark though and instead of giving us experiences that felt substantive and impactful, relevant and worthwhile, journeys that further enhanced our adventures with the world of Thedas and its people, we were drowned in a deluge of repetitive fetch/deliver quests in each zone, with little to no variation.

 

As a result, I found myself reluctant to progress to new zones that I had unlocked, knowing that apart from the main questline and opening introduction at the War Table, I'd be served the MMO questing experience where each zone is a reskin and the content is nigh the same.

 

Of course, I say that with a touch of hyperbole, but you get the point.

 

Something is very, very wrong when - and I say this as a self-proclaimed DA lore nerd who fervently reads the books and codex entries - the reaction you elicit from opening up a new zone is not excitement and enthusiasm, but rather, a grimace as you realize you need to drag yourself through yet another zone of monotomy in the slight hopes of finding a few jewels hidden in their deepest reaches.