160 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

First of all, I want to make it clear that I've been arguing for the inclusion of homosexual companions and LI's ever since Dragon Age 2 was released, and am very pleased with what we got. I really got along with Dorian in-game and thought that Sera was an excellent example of how to make a characters sexuality apparent without having them revolve around it. I also have great respect for David Gaider, and love his work both in Inquisition and previous Bioware games. 

 

I also apologise if this subject has been discussed to death and I am incredibly late on the uptake. I've not been on the forums much post-release and I couldn't see a topic about this on the first page or so. Now, on to the matter at hand:

 

I really don't like Dorian's personal quest. I find myself looking back on it even now, and a post about it on David's tumblr only got me thinking about it even more. 

 

My main issue is that I feel it just doesn't fit in the Dragon Age universe. Or at least is framed/written in a way that feels more at place in the real world than in Thedas. To start with here is the exert about Tevinter in the 'Sexuality in Thedas' codex: "In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."  

 

This is really the crux of my issues with how the quest is written. Tevinter culture is very different to our own, and some forms of homosexual behavior in Tevinter are actively encouraged. In the real world it is being attracted to the same gender that is seen as taboo or sinful, but in Tevinter just being attracted to the same gender shouldn't be an issue at all. It is refusing to put on a public face, marry the opposite gender and produce offspring that is an issue, not merely being attracted to the same gender.

 

But Dorian seems to claim that the entire issue is that he "wants to have sex with men" and that his father doesn't like that, which doesn't fit with the culture described above. It takes a very specific dialogue option to actually clarify that Dorian isn't attracted to women, which is very weird since that is the real issue: He doesn't want to have a public relationship with a woman.

 

I'd love to see an exploration into the culture of sexuality in Tevinter- how Dorian feels pressured to put on a public face, having to pretend that he is attracted to his wife and how unfair that is on her, how his father is pressuring him to using slaves to satisfy those desires but he doesn't agree with slavery or using slaves that way... it could be a really interesting and unique exploration into issues surrounding sexuality in a fictional culture. But instead we get "My dad can't accept that I'm gay and wants to change me". A cliche that we've seen a million times before and belongs in the real world, not in Thedas. 

 

In David Gaider's tublr post he suggests that people who don't feel moved or relate to it aren't the intended audience of that quest, and that it is supposed to connect to people who face similar issues in real life. But that is the problem. People in real life shouldn't be facing incredibly similar problems to Dorian because they are (or should be) specific to his culture: a culture that does not exist in the real world. As painful as it is to say I worry that David focused too much on putting his real-life feelings and experiences onto (digital) paper, resulting in a quest that ultimately feels like it belongs in the real world. 

 

But what do you think? Do you think Dorians personal quest fit perfectly, or do you also feel that it was out of place? I'm interested in seeing how other people feel about the quest, particularly those who it resonated with. 

[Hellion Rex]

I'm....ambivalent. I think Dorian's quest was well written full stop, but I'm not absolutely sure what to think of it necessarily in the context of the world of Thedas.

[QweenBeen]

Don't think I read the same interview you did but in a later one, I think he made a good argument about what his personal quest was actually about, and he was sure it would get a few "eye rolls".

Not every story involving a gay character needs to be about them being gay, but I think it’s a missed opportunity to declare that none of them should be…and, in this case, I felt it underlined parts of Dorian’s makeup which, up to that point, had been left to inference. Dorian’s life is one of rebellion, and while being gay in and of itself doesn’t dictate his personality, the conflict that arose from it is certainly a big part of it

To counter your last point, people do face similar experiences in the real world. Who we are is judged by society all the time, and what's right and wrong is supposedly predetermined for us so we're marked as rebels, conformist, whatever. Yes we're fortunate to live in a world where royal or magesterial bloodlines being broken because you're gay isn't real, but it's the experience of overcoming societal pressures that is meant to be what's relatible.

[ThreeF]

I got the impression that the problem was that Dorian couldn't have kids, a very important thing for a Tevinter upper class, so it's not that far off from the Tevinter culture.

[Boost32]

The real problem his father had with him was that he wouldnt marry and have kids, continuation of the bloodlines is very important for any noble house in any kingdom, if Dorian accepted he wouldnt have tried change his sexuality.

[ZerioctheTank]

.....I have dealt with the issue in real life before with my own family but I wasn't touched by the scene honestly. I didn't hate but I wasn't in tears or felt like my heart strings were being tugged. I did feel like they put his sexuality at the forefront of his personality & that is a tad annoying but this is my opinion on the matter.

[Fredward]

I think it was hamfisted and preachy (touching, but still hamfisted and preachy) but not that it didn't fit with Thedas' setting. You know one of the places that Tevinter draws inspiration from is that place that had pederasty right? Teh gay was fine there too as long as you were either a boy 'learning' from an older guy or slipping it to a slave. Never taking it though. Anyway that wasn't really my point.

 

The Magisters love their magical bloodlines, they basically treat themselves like breeders do their animals, they want the perfect mage in their family. Prestige must be like currency to them, the more prestigious a house is the easier it would be to cement a marriage with another powerful mage family. Which is why aberrations and deviations must be hidden, they devalue the whole family. I think that's the real thing with Dorian. He refused to play by those rules. His father no doubt tried a lot of things to get him to play pretend but none of it worked so instead he decided he'd change his son instead.

 

Teh gay is not so much the problem as what it represents: rebellion against society's asinine rules, which is a running theme for Dory. And how far some people would go to keep up appearances.

[Tytelr]

Okay, while I can agree that the scene could have been done with a bit less contemporary influence, a person's thoughts, beliefs, and actions are not entirely defined by the culture he or she lives in. For example, I am originally from a small, conservative town. Racism, homophobia, and general bigotry is the norm there, or the "culture" if you will. I prescribe to none of those things.

 

I feel like you're oversimplifying Dorian's father's feelings about Dorian based on general information we know about Tevinter's feelings about Dorian. The two CAN differ. I believe you're giving yourself validation in not liking the scene when you don't really need validation. It was cringe-worthy. Haha

[Luckyanna]

a person's thoughts, beliefs, and actions are not entirely defined by the culture he or she lives in. 

 

This. While some things are acceptable in Tevinter that doesn't mean Dorian's father accepts them. It's possible that to him "wanting to have sex with men" is enough to worry about his legacy to the point where he would want to use blood magic to change Dorian.

[Nefla]

I liked it because it was an emotional moment and I like emotion in stories, but I admit it was...heavy handed? Ill-fitted to the attitudes we've been shown in game towards homosexuality (acceptance, non issue). Maybe these kinds of scenes will be less awkward in the future but I'm glad they made the effort to identify with people who are going through the same kind of thing (non acceptance, people wanting to change you).

[Raikas]

But Dorian seems to claim that the entire issue is that he "wants to have sex with men" and that his father doesn't like that, which doesn't fit with the culture described above. It takes a very specific dialogue option to actually clarify that Dorian isn't attracted to women, which is very weird since that is the real issue: He doesn't want to have a public relationship with a woman.

Eh, if you choose the "That's what this is about?" line (which ends up being "This is about who you sleep with?"), Dorian actually specifically says that the entire issue is *not* that he prefers men, so I don't see how you can argue that's he's claiming the opposite.

Dorian's personal quest didn't trigger for me in my first playthrough, so I ended up reading about it before actually playing it - from what I read, I assumed that I would have the same issue you did - I didn't think it would fit with Thedas as we know it, but when I got the quest on my second run I actually thought it was significantly better done than I expected. It was still a little preachy, but it was more multi-layered than I'd expected (and I liked that there was a dialogue option where you could express surprise about it being an issue at all).

[KaiserShep]

I really enjoyed this quest, mainly because it was a good look into another unpleasant facet of Tevinter culture, but also because I kind of felt Dorian's pain when he said "You were looking out for what was best for you, and your f**king legacy!"

[MikeJW]

It was preachy and I felt like I was watching an after school special or something. I expected G.I Joe to walk into the room and tell us " The more you know..." You know, they can have gay characters, whatever, but I can do without so much exploration on the sexual habits of Thedas and that goes for the straights too.

[Ianamus]

Eh, if you choose the "That's what this is about?" line (which ends up being "This is about who you sleep with?"), Dorian actually specifically says that the entire issue is *not* that he prefers men, so I don't see how you can argue that's he's claiming the opposite.

Dorian's personal quest didn't trigger for me in my first playthrough, so I ended up reading about it before actually playing it - from what I read, I assumed that I would have the same issue you did - I didn't think it would fit with Thedas as we know it, but when I got the quest on my second run I actually thought it was significantly better done than I expected. It was still a little preachy, but it was more multi-layered than I'd expected (and I liked that there was a dialogue option where you could express surprise about it being an issue at all).

 

I don't think that I ever picked that option, so I'd be interested in seeing exactly what he says if you choose it. 

 

I wish that particular wheel had been investigate options instead. Asking if he's attracted to women, indicating that your character is also attracted to men and inquiring further about the issues involved all being mutually exclusive was really annoying, as they were all important questions/things I wanted to be addressed. 

[KaiserShep]

It was preachy and I felt like I was watching an after school special or something. I expected G.I Joe to walk into the room and tell us " The more you know..." You know, they can have gay characters, whatever, but I can do without so much exploration on the sexual habits of Thedas and that goes for the straights too.

I honestly cannot remember what any of those GI Joe PSA's said, because of YouTube.

 

"Porkchop sandwiches!"

[Ryriena]

This does happen in real life with gay conversion therapy were the person is subjected to abuse or even electroshock therapy to change them to being straight. So I found it quite fitting for a culture like Tevintar's who is basicly wanting perfect mage children for their family legacy. No to me it was not preachy just because you think gay conversion therapy can work which it doesn't it just makes the victam entirly screwed up in the long run. Like turning his own son in to a drooling simpeltion because he refused too acpect him for who he is.

[AshesEleven]

I thought it was fitting, actually.  I got the sense that the issue was exactly because Dorian refused to get with a woman, and so his father resolved to change him, to continue his legacy.  It wasn't just a matter of homosexuality, it was about the father's legacy, about continuing his line, and when Dorian refused, he was ready to take the risk of using blood magic.  

 

Yeah, the quest focused on the homosexual aspect a lot, but the larger issue was the Pavus legacy.  

[Raikas]

I don't think that I ever picked that option, so I'd be interested in seeing exactly what he says if you choose it. 

This video has all the options - the different responses are between the 5-7 minutes points (around 6:15 you get the "That's what this is about?"/"That's not all it's about" exchange)

 

 

 

I wish that particular wheel had been investigate options instead. Asking if he's attracted to women, indicating that your character is also attracted to men and inquiring further about the issues involved all being mutually exclusive was really annoying, as they were all important questions/things I wanted to be addressed.

 

I agree, but you can avoid all that by not picking that "the company of men?" line - I didn't, and going with the others gives you the "Why is that an issue?" discussion instead of the silly attraction one (which may be why the scene worked better for me - I've watched the other responses, and I do think they change the tone of the scene).

[nightscrawl]

Honestly, it just seems that you didn't pay very much attention to what he actually says during his quest and in subsequent dialogs about the subject. And no, you DON'T have to be a male character and romance him to see all of this stuff. In my first play as a female I understood all of his issues.

 

My main issue is that I feel it just doesn't fit in the Dragon Age universe. Or at least is framed/written in a way that feels more at place in the real world than in Thedas. To start with here is the exert about Tevinter in the 'Sexuality in Thedas' codex: "In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."  
 
This is really the crux of my issues with how the quest is written. Tevinter culture is very different to our own, and some forms of homosexual behavior in Tevinter are actively encouraged. In the real world it is being attracted to the same gender that is seen as taboo or sinful, but in Tevinter just being attracted to the same gender shouldn't be an issue at all. It is refusing to put on a public face, marry the opposite gender and produce offspring that is an issue, not merely being attracted to the same gender.
 
But Dorian seems to claim that the entire issue is that he "wants to have sex with men" and that his father doesn't like that, which doesn't fit with the culture described above. It takes a very specific dialogue option to actually clarify that Dorian isn't attracted to women, which is very weird since that is the real issue: He doesn't want to have a public relationship with a woman.

Dorian does NOT claim that the entire issue revolves around wanting to have sex with men. Even during the quest when you ask "(Paraphrase) That's what this is about?" -- Spoken line is: "That's what this is about? Who you sleep with?" -- To which he responds: "That's not all this is about," and goes on to explain how his father wanted to "change" him. The reasons that his father's actions are so very hurtful are because (1) his father taught him to "hate blood magic" but then considers using it on Dorian, (2) ran the risk of turning his son into a "mental vegetable," and (3) basically couldn't accept his son for who he is.

It is explained that he didn't want to "live a lie" and "spend the rest of his life screaming on the inside." He also talks about Tevinter nobility marriage and their breeding program in general terms and mentions his parents being paired together, despite the fact that "they loathed each other." Dorian saw that in his parents' marriage and did not want that for himself.

Now, I will add that if you do have a male character and do the romance, he also explains that in Tevinter sex between men is about pleasure only and nothing more, that one learns to not even hope for more.

It did resonate with me, and I'm not even gay. Dorian shows a lot of depth throughout all of his writing -- although here I think it does help to do the romance, but is not completely necessary -- and is not just the flirty, vain, snark machine that makes so many people like him initially; he's a lot more.


Now, I don't really see why this doesn't fit within the Dragon Age setting. In real world medieval times do you think there weren't homosexual nobles who loathed the idea of being married off for political reasons? Hell, it sucked -- especially for the women since they were married so young -- even if you weren't gay.

I'll grant that the whole blood magic angle and trying to change him is obviously purposely analogous to the contemporary "pray away the gay," but I don't really see a problem with that either. Do you think gay men and women never went into the clergy or the cloister to avoid temptation, believing themselves sinners?

 

If we are able to accept the fact that the major religion in Thedas is matriarchal and that women have a higher place in society because of it, a fact that is so contrary to our world's history, then we can certainly accept some of these other concepts that the devs throw at us.

[Above Good and Evil]

Being gay might be seen as fine in Tevinter....as long as you're willing to slip the sausage into the opposite plate when the time comes for kids. Slaves have no rights, so screwing them isn't seen as wrong. Likewise in Tevinter you can probably be in male relationshops but you better get a baby with good genes out at some point when your parents assign you your mate. Note that Dorian's mom and dad allegedly hate one another, a just as viable reason to reject marriage, but they got married anyway cause genes. His dad probably wouldn't have cared if he was gay so long as he produced an heir, and its when Dorian rejected procreating to continue the legacy altogether that he got pissed.

All in all it reminds me of Game of Thrones with Renly, Loras and Margaery. The latter NEEDS an heir for a stable legacy so she's willing to get her brother involved to get just the seed. Dorian would have likely rejected even that and would rather be in an openly gay relationship and perhaps even marriage, which fucks up the entire legacy Dorian's mom and dad stomached their hate for to make. In his dad's eyes he married someone he didn't love so Dorian has to follow suit; the sexual orientation is just subplot. If Dorian said he refused to marry because he just plain didn't like Imperium girls or other Mage females the blood magic would still happen since the legacy was all that mattered.

[nightscrawl]

This video has all the options - the different responses are between the 5-7 minutes points (around 6:15 you get the "That's what this is about?"/"That's not all it's about" exchange)

Thanks for the link. I don't usually watch gameplay videos, but after this thread I decided to break the rule. I've played out that scene a few times but usually with the same options. It was interesting, and partly amusing, to see some of the other ones (although I prefer the way I play it the best). It was also nice to see that there are significant differences based on your previous flirting, or whether you took him out there without telling him before hand -- I wasn't surprised to see him react negatively to this in the back-at-Skyhold scene.

[schall_und_rauch]

I'd love to see an exploration into the culture of sexuality in Tevinter- how Dorian feels pressured to put on a public face, having to pretend that he is attracted to his wife and how unfair that is on her, how his father is pressuring him to using slaves to satisfy those desires but he doesn't agree with slavery or using slaves that way... it could be a really interesting and unique exploration into issues surrounding sexuality in a fictional culture. But instead we get "My dad can't accept that I'm gay and wants to change me". A cliche that we've seen a million times before and belongs in the real world, not in Thedas.

The topic of how Dorian is pressured to put on a public face is explicitly mentioned. Dorian's argument is about how his father expects to take up a role in public which Dorian does not accept. He does not want to live a lie, like his parents did before him. So he rebels about a culture which uses very heavy-handed methods to force nobles into a role and position, regardless of their own feelings about it.

This can be pretty much abstracted away from the gay issue. If you change the story slightly -- his parents forcing him to marry a noble girl, while he is in love with a peasant girl -- the basic feelings and emotions and the core of the story "I don't want my parents to mess with my life so I fit into their expectation" would've been exactly the same.

[Bob Walker]

IMO, the main theme of the quest is about a father trying to amend his troubled relationship wtih his son. The gay and reproduction issues are only details.