160 réponses à ce sujet

[frostajulie]

Honestly, it just seems that you didn't pay very much attention to what he actually says during his quest and in subsequent dialogs about the subject. And no, you DON'T have to be a male character and romance him to see all of this stuff. In my first play as a female I understood all of his issues.

 

Dorian does NOT claim that the entire issue revolves around wanting to have sex with men. Even during the quest when you ask "(Paraphrase) That's what this is about?" -- Spoken line is: "That's what this is about? Who you sleep with?" -- To which he responds: "That's not all this is about," and goes on to explain how his father wanted to "change" him. The reason that his father's actions are so very hurtful are because (1) his father taught him to "hate blood magic" but then considers using it on Dorian, (2) ran the risk of turning his son into a "mental vegetable," and (3) basically couldn't accept his son for who he is.

It is explained that he didn't want to "live a lie" and "spend the rest of his life screaming on the inside." He also talks about Tevinter nobility marriage and their breeding program in general terms and mentions his parents being paired together, despite the fact that "they loathed each other." Dorian saw that in his parents' marriage and did not want that for himself.

Now, I will add that if you do have a male character and do the romance, he also explains that in Tevinter sex between men is about pleasure only and nothing more, that one learns to not even hope for more.

It did resonate with me, and I'm not even gay. Dorian shows a lot of depth throughout all of his writing -- although here I think it does help to do the romance, but is not completely necessary -- and is not just the flirty, vain, snark machine that makes so many people like him initially; he's a lot more.


Now, I don't really see why this doesn't fit within the Dragon Age setting. In real world medieval times do think there weren't homosexual nobles who loathed the idea of being married off for political reasons? Hell, it sucked -- especially for the women since they were married so young -- even if you weren't gay.

I'll grant that the whole blood magic angle and trying to change him is obviously purposely analogous to the contemporary "pray away the gay," but I don't really see a problem with that either. Do you think gay men and women never went into the clergy or the cloister to avoid temptation, believing themselves sinners?

 

If we are able to accept the fact that the major religion in Thedas is matriarchal and that women have a higher place in society because of it, a fact that is so contrary to our world's history, then we can certainly accept some of these other concepts that the devs throw at us.

Thought I might have to take a stab at this, so many completely miss the point that it was not about being gay and having sex with men that was the issue and that was beside the point. Dorian wants more than sex with a man he wants the right to be who he is and love who he wants without living his life fulfilling someone elses expectations of who he ought to be.  He has no interest pretending by being a husband and fathering children on a woman. This is the crux of his fathers disapproval that he expects more than sex with men from men, he expects to build a life at a mans side rather than a womans if he should be so blessed. His dad used blood magic to try to control and change him- essentially you are not now nor will you ever be good enough for me as you are but I can FIX you. The worst form of betrayal by someone you love and respect and idolize as many sons do in respect to their fathers.  The VA really got the emotions down perfectly  You could hear the hurt behind the anger. I loved this scene and is why I feel so strongly connected to Dorian even since I have never been able to romance him... yet.

[nightscrawl]

IMO, the main theme of the quest is about a father trying to amend his troubled relationship wtih his son. The gay and reproduction issues are only details.

 

I agree. The alternate versions in the video linked above support this as well. It is ultimately about the betrayal and the broken trust, and the very long, rocky path to maybe-forgiveness. Dorian loves his father. He also knows that his father loves him "in his way." But even if the relationship is partially repaired it will never be what it was, nor will Dorian ever be able to completely forgive his father, and he certainly won't forget the hurt of what happened.

[hyacinth macaw]

Dorian's father doesn't have to necessarily buy into Tevinter's general attitude about homosexuality. Not all Tevinters will have the same views on homosexuality (or blood magic, or religion, or so on...) Just as not all denizens of New York City, a place where homosexuality is widely accepted, will have the same views on it. My take on Dorian's personal quest is that his father's views were more conservative than is the norm in Tevinter.

[katerinafm]

When the codex says 'encouraged with slaves' I think they meant that it's encouraged that if you want to have sex with the same sex, do it with your slave instead of another noble and have a relationship with them. Basically just get your kicks off but still do your 'duty' by continuing your line, etc.

 

The problem Dorian seemed to be facing is that he didn't want to hide. He wanted to express himself freely because that's what he is. He wanted to be able to love someone of the same gender (that's mostly apparent by romancing him) and not have to have to do it in private while presenting himself differently to the outside world. Dorian really was the 'perfect' offspring, and thus faced extreme pressures by his family due to being in Tevinter. Him refusing to marry and continue the line wasn't just him being difficult. It was him going against how Tevinter works and how everyone in Tevinter expected him to act, including his family. It wasn't the homosexuality itself that was the problem, it was that he wouldn't push it aside enough to marry good and carry his magic genes, basically.

[Hazegurl]

From what I got out of Dorian's PQ is that

 

1. His father does NOT like him sleeping with men. Period. I don't even think he would encourage him to have sex with slaves. Just as would not encourage him to use blood magic. 

 

2. His father NEEDS him to breed because that is the culture of Tevinter.

 

That's why Dorian says "That's not all it's about." Also his father can accuse the Inquisitor of sleeping with Dorian. So it seems like the father personally does not like gay relationships especially since his son won't just marry a woman and breed and keep the dudes on the side.  Basically, if Dorian was sticking it to male slaves while being married and miserable with kids. His father would still dislike it but at least he would be keeping the genes going and his line won't die off.

[leaguer of one]

From what I got out of Dorian's PQ is that

 

1. His father does NOT like him sleeping with men. Period. I don't even think he would encourage him to have sex with slaves. Just as would not encourage him to use blood magic. 

 

2. His father NEEDS him to breed because that is the culture of Tevinter.

 

That's why Dorian says "That's not all it's about." Also his father can accuse the Inquisitor of sleeping with Dorian. So it seems like the father personally does not like gay relationships especially since his son won't just marry a woman and breed and keep the dudes on the side.  Basically, if Dorian was sticking it to male slaves while being married and miserable with kids. His father would still dislike it but at least he would be keeping the genes going and his line won't die off.

his father does not like the quis sleep with Dorian is not because he hates gays, it's because he feel like it's make the issue worse.

[Hazegurl]

Not really. All it takes is for the IQ to come out as gay for the father to say "I should have known that was this was about" Implying that just because the IQ comes out that he MUST be sleeping with Dorian and that is the reason he(Dorian) joined. I'm not saying he hates gays but that he doesn't seem like the type to encourage every Tevinter norm. He already goes against Blood Magic (of course unless it's convenient) so why would he encourage sex with male slaves just because it's the norm there?

[TeraBat]

I agree with frostajulie and katerinafm. Dorian didn't want to effectively live in the closet, only having furtive relationships with slaves (and the dubious power issues involved therein). He also shows some compassion for his hypothetical wife; knowing that being married to him would not be what she either expected or wanted. The whole story demonstrates that Dorian is empathetic, and has an ingrained aversion to using people like that. He wants to be respected as a person - as a gay man, with the right to love (and sleep with) whom he chooses and not part of a Tevinter breeding program

[Ieldra]

I do agree that the scene was not primarily about sexual orientation from an in-world viewpoint. However, the problem was that it was presented to invoke real-world problems with sexual orientation such as the idea of changing it. And I think it was intentionally presented that way. It came across as heavy-handed in a way that was completely beside the point, similarly to Cullen's lyrium problem which was presented as a classic addiction problem without taking into account that there is a real benefit to taking lyrium, which makes it very differerent from the real-world parallel invoked by the scenes.

 

So yeah, I can see what the OP is about. I would have preferred - in both cases - that the writers had just told the story without trying to invoke real-world analogies that are actually different enough to make the story feel somewhat alien. It's not a critical flaw, but it is very noticeable and makes me think - and not for the first time - how much the writers are really into their own lore. Sometimes, IMO, not enough.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I agree. Being one of my favorite characters, he deserved better.

[Steelcan]

It seemed a nice elaboration on what we've known about the universe.

 

We know that homosexuality is tolerated for nobles as long as they do their duty, this quest asks "well what about when they won't do their duty?"

[dsajorje3]

I admit it was a well written Very Special Level, but what kinda worried me was that it just gives fuel for the straight players' case that Bioware has a gay agenda. Having gay characters in a game isn't an agenda because there are gay people in real life, it would be more of a heterosexual agenda if there weren't gay characters at all, but this could hurt gay acceptance in a small way by making straight people more resentful about us being too vocal and whiny. I'm sure Gaider was aware of how the level would come off to some people, and I respect that he had the balls to write it when when most artists and creators avoid writing homosexual characters out of fear of reactions like this, but how you vocalize something can make things worse for the message you're trying to get across

 

Basically my case is the usual, "Have gay characters but don't make their sexuality a big deal"

[leaguer of one]

I admit it was a well written Very Special Level, but what kinda worried me was that it just gives fuel for the straight players' case that Bioware has a gay agenda. Having gay characters in a game isn't an agenda because there are gay people in real life, it would be more of a heterosexual agenda if there weren't gay characters at all, but this could hurt gay acceptance in a small way by making straight people more resentful about us being too vocal and whiny. I'm sure Gaider was aware of how the level would come off to some people, and I respect that he had the balls to write it when when most artists and creators avoid writing homosexual characters out of fear of reactions like this, but how you vocalize something can make things worse for the message you're trying to get across

 

Basically my case is the usual, "Have gay characters but don't make their sexuality a big deal"

Please, anyone who used that statement already lost any validity in the first play. They must suffer the greatest insult anyone can get...to be ignored.

[Des]

I do agree that the scene was not primarily about sexual orientation from an in-world viewpoint. However, the problem was that it was presented to invoke real-world problems with sexual orientation such as the idea of changing it. And I think it was intentionally presented that way. It came across as heavy-handed in a way that was completely beside the point, similarly to Cullen's lyrium problem which was presented as a classic addiction problem without taking into account that there is a real benefit to taking lyrium, which makes it very differerent from the real-world parallel invoked by the scenes.

 

So yeah, I can see what the OP is about. I would have preferred - in both cases - that the writers had just told the story without trying to invoke real-world analogies that are actually different enough to make the story feel somewhat alien. It's not a critical flaw, but it is very noticeable and makes me think - and not for the first time - how much the writers are really into their own lore. Sometimes, IMO, not enough.

 

I disagree. The whole scene to me was very obviously less about the gay aspect and more about the fact that Dorian was betrayed by someone he loved and trusted, and how that impacted his life. That scene was pretty difficult for me to get through, actually, because I can relate a lot. I am not gay, I'm a straight white girl, but my father heavily disapproved of the path I was taking when I was a teenager- namely, that I wanted to draw all the time and have a career working with animals rather than go to college and major in something that would have me sit in an office all day. Having someone you love decide that you are inadequate and turn to emotional abuse in order to change you is devastating. I'm not going into depth here, but suffice to say I see exactly where they were coming from with Dorian's back story. I think people who have not experienced something like this often have a hard time wrapping their heads around it, and I think that's where the "wahh they made everything about Dorian about being gay" issue is coming from.

[Hazegurl]

I think anyone can take anything out of that quest that's personal and wouldn't entirely be wrong about their perceptions.

 

ex: I immediately told Dorian about the letter because I recently had an ordeal with someone setting up a meeting behind my back that was very personal, also involving my father.  Of course it was done with good intentions but that wasn't enough.

 

So I ran right up those stairs to inform Dorian of the letter as I wished that person would have done for me irl.

 

I think his quest has a lot to do with betrayal of trust, acceptance, conformity et al. Oh the drama!   But it also had to do with his sexuality as well. I don't think it's wrong to point that out. Usually that's all most people will take away from that scene anyway.

[Kuvira]

There was nothing 'after school special' about it at all. How else could the conversation have gone? It's like anything that doesn't fall perfectly in line with cis het male experience is being 'preached at'. No, it's just showing another facet of life, one that just doesn't apply to you. I'm glad they didn't shove every LGBTQA aspect of the game behind layers of dialogue options (like Krem). 

 

Tevinter was already pretty well described as being a eugenics wonderland. Dorian refusing to fake it and have babies ruins everything, he's the only child of his parents' union. If he doesn't reproduce, he's basically spitting on decades (if not centuries) of joint misery used to create him. Refusing to stay closeted screws not only his parents, but probably all distant relatives. Because once other families find out that one of them turned on to be teh gay, they won't marry their kids off for fear they too will end up with a rebellious non-breeder.

 

If Dorian's father had been like 'is ok brah, love you and have fun helping topple Tevinter' I would have rolled my eyes. 

[nightscrawl]

... but what kinda worried me was that it just gives fuel for the straight players' case that Bioware has a gay agenda.

I think Bioware, and EA by proxy, has very clearly demonstrated that they don't give a toss what people think about them in this regard. Honestly, I don't think most gamers care either. The minority that does care enough to refuse to buy Bioware's games on that principle alone might just be outweighed by those who become new customers on the same principle, so in the end they break even.

You have to consider that it's not just the LGBT players who want representation for themselves. It's also their allies who are tired of the same old retread ground presented in other games and other franchises by other studios. Those people have wallets too, and they aren't afraid to speak through them.

[dgcatanisiri]

I really do agree with the OP on this. I really do get more a sense of Dorian's quest falling into the territory of being presented as a Very Special Episode than something that really fit in the Dragon Age setting, or that it was given just enough trappings of it so that it wouldn't seem entirely out of place. It still, though, felt like an anvil. I'm not saying it's not an anvil that doesn't still need to be dropped, but... The only thing that made it really stand out against any of a dozen stories exactly like this for me was that the player could choose to convince Dorian to walk away. Normally, these narratives end with an enforced 'all is forgiven' glurge-worthy hug between the gay character and the person who is only paying lip service to having changed.

 

For me, it's just this has been one of the most common narratives I've seen for queer people, that they fled home because a parent couldn't accept them being queer, and now it can all be fixed with some pithy words and an apology I never accept being earned. Usually, it's a heterosexual protagonist who convinces the queer character to 'give them a second chance,' too. I see this as the most basic of narratives that exist within storytelling for queer protagonists. It's something that I've seen a dozen times over, and I find myself disappointed about it.

 

Because the way I see it is that any deeper meaning, the subject of broken trust and betrayals, the examination of Tevinter culture as a reflection of our own, all of that ends up in the background, while in the foreground, under the spotlight, is a character quest about Dorian being gay. Not anything deeper about his character, just that fact. Just this story I've seen plenty of times before, to a point where I've actively reached a point of wanting something MORE, because this has been one of the most dominant queer narratives for so long. It's the 'I've had this so many times, I want something different' element that makes this all kind of diappointing for me.

[Steelcan]

Except it isn't all fixed with some words and a hug

 

Dorian admits he isn't sure if he will ever be able to forgive his father

[TheTsar_]

The issue is continuing the bloodline and keeping seats in the Magisterium. 

[TeraBat]

I suspect the people who are focusing in on the gay aspect are sort of missing the forest for the trees. 

 

Bi men have shown up in Dragon Age before, and have had a lot of stories involving them - such as Anders saving Karl (or trying to, at least). Fenris' story of betrayal at the hands of his family had nothing to do with his sexuality.

 

And for a lot of gay and bi men, that's life - they have challenges and travails which have little to nothing to do with their sexuality. 

 

But some do. 

 

Not every real-world gay man has been forced through conversion therapy. But many have And it's a real story, with real impact on real lives. And for someone who's inspired to take the issues of conversion therapy and implement them in a fantasy setting - there's almost no way to tell that story and ignore the character's sexuality. Because that's what conversion therapy is all about. Papa Pavus might have had different motivations than a real-world father in forcing his son through conversion therapy, but that's almost incidental. It's a valid story, and it's one that deserves to be told. 

 

Otherwise, you might as well claim that the Dark Ritual is shoving heterosexuality in your face. 

[TOply]

I feel like his father was fine with Dorian liking men as long as it didn't interfere with the "greater" good of preserving and strengthing the family legacy and influence. His comment about the Quizzy if you started a relationship with Dorian shows how he (and I assume, Tervinter society, for the most part) view homosexuality; as something you do on the side for fun but not something that will help you and your legacy, and therefore not something that should be taken seriously.

Dorian doesn't see it that way. When you ask about his family, he'll talk about his parents loathe each other and are only together because of their genetic compatibility, and that's not something Dorian wants. He's not opposed to fun but he also wants a serious relationship that is out in the open and not hidden away like some shameful secret. Moreover, the betrayal he felt when his father tried to use blood magic on him is most likely the main thrust of the rift between Dorian and his parents. The fact that his father was willing to risk the safety and sanity of his only child in order to try and preserve the legacy of his family name probably cut deeper than any disapproval he had towards homosexuality.

[LaughingBanana]

It's pretty obvious that Dorian's father didn't have problems about Dorian's preferred sexuality; rather, he objected the fact that Dorian didn't want to marry a woman to keep up appearances. I think he wouldn't resort to blood magic if Dorian just marry like he wanted.

 

So to clarify, it's not the homosexuality itself that's the problem, but rather Dorian's refusal to marry. Which is actually befitting to a society like Tevinter, where the game basically told us again and again how much they put importance to social standing.

[Chrys]

It's very curious to me that people read a codex that says it's deviant but encouraged with slaves and conclude it means homosexuality is fine in Tevinter. Seriously? "You can have sex with men/women as long as it's just slaves" equals acceptance of homosexuality to you? O.O

[Dutchess]

The topic of how Dorian is pressured to put on a public face is explicitly mentioned. Dorian's argument is about how his father expects to take up a role in public which Dorian does not accept. He does not want to live a lie, like his parents did before him. So he rebels about a culture which uses very heavy-handed methods to force nobles into a role and position, regardless of their own feelings about it.

This can be pretty much abstracted away from the gay issue. If you change the story slightly -- his parents forcing him to marry a noble girl, while he is in love with a peasant girl -- the basic feelings and emotions and the core of the story "I don't want my parents to mess with my life so I fit into their expectation" would've been exactly the same.

 

That is actually my problem with Dorian's quest. His situation (minus the threat of blood magic) applies just as easily to nobles in other countries. It seems like a wasted potential for a noble from Tevinter to have his quest revolve around how he is not allowed to be himself in the marriage department. Very few nobles anywhere are. Neither that nor the strained father-son relationship because gay are original. Dorian is just the gay version of Leandra, except he didn't have a lover to run away with. Making homosexuality the most important reason for Dorian's rebellion just seems easy scoring on sympathy points for Gaider.