It's very curious to me that people read a codex that says it's deviant but encouraged with slaves and conclude it means homosexuality is fine in Tevinter. Seriously? "You can have sex with men/women as long as it's just slaves" equals acceptance of homosexuality to you? O.O
Sounds like typical straight fixation on the sex part of being queer. If you're able to get your rocks off without being stoned to death, apparently everything is cool and you should stop whining.
Honestly, it just seems that you didn't pay very much attention to what he actually says during his quest and in subsequent dialogs about the subject. And no, you DON'T have to be a male character and romance him to see all of this stuff. In my first play as a female I understood all of his issues.
Dorian does NOT claim that the entire issue revolves around wanting to have sex with men. Even during the quest when you ask "(Paraphrase) That's what this is about?" -- Spoken line is: "That's what this is about? Who you sleep with?" -- To which he responds: "That's not all this is about," and goes on to explain how his father wanted to "change" him. The reason that his father's actions are so very hurtful are because (1) his father taught him to "hate blood magic" but then considers using it on Dorian, (2) ran the risk of turning his son into a "mental vegetable," and (3) basically couldn't accept his son for who he is.
It is explained that he didn't want to "live a lie" and "spend the rest of his life screaming on the inside." He also talks about Tevinter nobility marriage and their breeding program in general terms and mentions his parents being paired together, despite the fact that "they loathed each other." Dorian saw that in his parents' marriage and did not want that for himself.
Now, I will add that if you do have a male character and do the romance, he also explains that in Tevinter sex between men is about pleasure only and nothing more, that one learns to not even hope for more.
It did resonate with me, and I'm not even gay. Dorian shows a lot of depth throughout all of his writing -- although here I think it does help to do the romance, but is not completely necessary -- and is not just the flirty, vain, snark machine that makes so many people like him initially; he's a lot more.
Now, I don't really see why this doesn't fit within the Dragon Age setting. In real world medieval times do think there weren't homosexual nobles who loathed the idea of being married off for political reasons? Hell, it sucked -- especially for the women since they were married so young -- even if you weren't gay.
I'll grant that the whole blood magic angle and trying to change him is obviously purposely analogous to the contemporary "pray away the gay," but I don't really see a problem with that either. Do you think gay men and women never went into the clergy or the cloister to avoid temptation, believing themselves sinners?
If we are able to accept the fact that the major religion in Thedas is matriarchal and that women have a higher place in society because of it, a fact that is so contrary to our world's history, then we can certainly accept some of these other concepts that the devs throw at us.
I am completly agree with you. I really loved this quest. I think that many of those who argument against this quest is because they don't really understand how wonderful it works in so many aspects.
And I really can understand what Gaider said about this being written, in part, for people who can relate with it. I really do. And it doesn't means that the problems that this quests shows (politics, family problems, homosexuality...) are out of place in the DA world. People should be able to see some things in a metaphoric way.
The struggles between Dorian and his father really touched me. I felt really identified with that. The father that doesn't understand his son, and even so he claims that he wants the better for him, but he just wants his son to be someone that he's not. The disappointment.
It really touched me deeply. Dorian wants to be free and be who he wants to be. He wants to be renowned, but by himself, and not behind the shadow of his legacy.
I remember a specifically banter between Dorian and Cole about Dorian's feelings for his father:
Cole: You love him, but you're angry. They mix together, boiling in the belly until it kneads into a knot.
Dorian: Sometimes... sometimes love isn't enough, Cole.
That, with the amazing voice acting, really made me fall in love even more with Dorian.
This quest and the background of his relationship with his father was really well writen. You don't need to be homosexual to understand and feel this.But, obviously, when you love men (I'm bisexual) it gets even more and more personal and touching.
Gaider did a terrific work.
I just hate that Dorian's personal quest, the quest that is supposed to give you insight to who he is, the quest that DEFINES him.... Is a quest about how he is gay and his daddy doesn't like it.
Im sorry, is this Jr. High? Are you seriously going to make that the quest that defines Dorian? A quest that basically boils down to "he is gay"?
Im not gay, but i have had some gay friends in my life. When one came out to me I, to my shame, did not fully understand how to act. My friend finally told me something that stuck with me. "Being gay isn't all that I am." And I wept when I realized that i had unintentionally insulted him deeply.
Thats why I hate Dorians quest. Because, intentionally or not, thats how it paints Dorian. That quest states that the most important element of his character isnt his wit, or opinions on mages, or the fact that hes from Tevinter, but rather that his defining characteristic is that he is a homosexual.
In David Gaider's tublr post he suggests that people who don't feel moved or relate to it aren't the intended audience of that quest, and that it is supposed to connect to people who face similar issues in real life. But that is the problem. People in real life shouldn't be facing incredibly similar problems to Dorian because they are (or should be) specific to his culture: a culture that does not exist in the real world. As painful as it is to say I worry that David focused too much on putting his real-life feelings and experiences onto (digital) paper, resulting in a quest that ultimately feels like it belongs in the real world.
But what do you think? Do you think Dorians personal quest fit perfectly, or do you also feel that it was out of place? I'm interested in seeing how other people feel about the quest, particularly those who it resonated with.
This is an incredibly simplistic view. As a pan person who is what one can consider third gender, there is a heavy pressure in some circles and aspects of society in which they accept you as long as you're "quiet" about it. Even the military had "Don't ask, don't tell". The stigma of being openly gay or lgbt has led to the deaths and abuses of countless people, from Fred Martinez to Islan Nettles - a friend was also abused and exiled by her family - and some cultures perpetuate this system of thought. It's easy for a person who hasn't been through or experienced those things to claim a similar depiction in a work of fiction doesn't have any real world basis.
Aside from the banal stuff that makes headlines, there are plenty of subtler things that lgbt folks deal with. One of the most common arguments - and something I found particularly poignant about Tevinter views toward it - was about how it was against nature because "gay men can't procreate," etc. The fact that his father was willing to use blood magic to "change" his sexuality struck home and reminded me of dozens of so-called "conversion therapy" programs that created mentally and emotionally abusive environments in similar attempts. There are plenty of real life parallels beyond the superficial.
So yeah, I think you may have missed Gaider's point. For some of us, that depiction was practically an analog for a well-established sentiment and experience many people have had and still deal with in the real world. We all interpret characters differently.
I did not feel that way, actually. I had not read anything about Inquisition before playing it, or even before ending my first playthrough. I just experienced while I went along (a deliberate decision).Im sorry, is this Jr. High? Are you seriously going to make that the quest that defines Dorian? A quest that basically boils down to "he is gay"?
It never struck me as 'it's about being gay'. The main issue is that his father wants to get him into an arranged marriage, for the sake of keeping up appearances, lineage and status, and doesn't mind using blood magic to achieve that goal. Who cares about your son's wellbeing, after all?
The story would not be that different if Dorian would be straight or bi.
I don't feel that Dorian's sexuality has any real relevance to the overarching message of the quest but it is very relevant to the underlying reason for the conflict. I never got the impression that Papa Parvus had any stance towards homosexuality, one way or another. I think that he mentions the Quizzy (if he's male) as the reason for Dorian wanting to stay as lashing out in anger; Dorian's sexuality is just the easiest target for him to direct his anger, fustration, and/or guilt over the whole situation.
I think the main theme of Dorian's quest is the conflict between societal and familial expectations vs. your own expectations and desires. Papa Parvus just wants his offspring to issue forth as genetically perfect a mage as they can in order to elevate the Parvus legacy so, the quest is cliche but not because Dorian is gay but because he doesn't want to be forced into an arrangment in order to further goals that are not his own. If Dorian was a straight female, the quest could play out more or less the same, with hardly any content changes, and it would still be relevant to the real world by commenting on the number of forced marriages that still happen all over the world today. The main crux of Dorian's quest can speak to any number of demographics; it's the source of the conflict that is audience specific.
Anyhow, my two soverigns.
Like the people above me, I never had the impression that it was "just" about being gay. And even if it was, I'll say again: so what? Straight people don't need "reasons" for their existence and issues, either.
As I said, we're looking at an supremacist eugenics program, here. We're looking at how parents think they have the right to treat their children as extensions of the parents' desires, not people in their own right. We're looking at the lifelong suffering of forced marriages. We're looking at the price of saying "no" to all that, the price of integrity, of walking away and being your own person. We're looking at betrayal and hurt and, nonetheless, the primal if utterly fallible love between parent and child -- and how, thankfully, that love "isn't enough" to make it all into fluffy-happy-rainbow-land when weighed against the betrayal and hurt.
I understand (from personal experience) when women or minorities don't want to be reduced to that one trait. But at the same time, there should also be no reason why that one trait can't be the focus of a scene, a mission or a story. After all, there are countless stories about men being men, straight people being straight, and even us non-male, non-straight people are just matter-of-factly expected to like and identify with and understand them. So it really can't be too much to ask for to have one character's homosexuality play a role in his personal mission without people shouting either "gay agenda!" or "one-dimensional!"
Im sorry, is this Jr. High? Are you seriously going to make that the quest that defines Dorian? A quest that basically boils down to "he is gay"?
It's very curious to me that people read a codex that says it's deviant but encouraged with slaves and conclude it means homosexuality is fine in Tevinter. Seriously? "You can have sex with men/women as long as it's just slaves" equals acceptance of homosexuality to you? O.O
Pretty much this. Plus I think people are overlooking the fact that Halward seems quite conservative by Tevinter standards yet they think all will be well if Dorian had just married a woman and slept with male slaves. Because a codex says it's normal for the country's nobles.
Dorian's issues with his father runs deeper than just not marrying the girl and banging male slaves. Halward does not like the fact that his son is gay BUT will most likely accept him marrying a woman and sleeping with male slaves because he is a big fat hypocrite. Just like he preached against the Tevinter norm of blood magic yet ran straight to it when it was convenient to use against his own son.
I appreciate that the quest and Dorians relationship with his father is about more than his sexuality, but I'm watching the scene again on youtube and the undertones of deeper issues and the line "it's not only about that" doesn't change the fact that the encounter opens with Dorians sexuality, that a sizable portion of the dialogue is about his sexuality, and that around half of the dialogue options are related to his sexuality in some way. And the emotional crux of the quest, his fathers attempt to mindwash him with blood magic, is implied to be mainly because of his sexuality, and is clearly trying to draw parallels to real-world sexuality changing attempts.
Of course there are more issues there, but they are not fully explored or elaborated on, as the focus is solely on Dorian's sexuality and how it affects his relationship with his father. It may be elaborated on in other parts of the game, but it's not within this encounter.
It's true, original poster. They cared far too much about him being gay. They didn't focus on the eugenics aspect (which would also be cliche, but less so). They cared only about the gayness. Father-son relationship was secondary to that.
Gaider cared too much about it, and lacked imagination enough to tell it in an artful way. It was just a boring after school special, and honestly, I skip it whenever I play it.
Of course there are more issues there, but they are not fully explored or elaborated on, as the focus is solely on Dorian's sexuality and how it affects his relationship with his father. It may be elaborated on in other parts of the game, but it's not within this encounter.
I actually think that it's not all in a single encounter is to the game's credit. I think it's ridiculous when something is presented as a major character issues at one point and then gets ignored for the rest of the game, so I like that the information is spread out.
I've had the issue of Dorian's personal quest not triggering on two of my three playthroughs, but there's still enough banter that touches on the whole rejection of arranged marriages issue that I still had a strong sense of that being a major issue for him without ever meeting his father in those runs.
I just hate that Dorian's personal quest, the quest that is supposed to give you insight to who he is, the quest that DEFINES him.... Is a quest about how he is gay and his daddy doesn't like it.
Im sorry, is this Jr. High? Are you seriously going to make that the quest that defines Dorian? A quest that basically boils down to "he is gay"?
Im not gay, but i have had some gay friends in my life. When one came out to me I, to my shame, did not fully understand how to act. My friend finally told me something that stuck with me. "Being gay isn't all that I am." And I wept when I realized that i had unintentionally insulted him deeply.
Thats why I hate Dorians quest. Because, intentionally or not, thats how it paints Dorian. That quest states that the most important element of his character isnt his wit, or opinions on mages, or the fact that hes from Tevinter, but rather that his defining characteristic is that he is a homosexual.
Actually the entire point of the quest was for you to discover that Dorian left his beloved home country, his father who he loved, and the pampered lifestyle that was all he knew in order to be his own person, stand up for what he thought was right, and be instrumental in making the changes he wished to see in the world.
If all you got from that quest was "lol he's gay" you really need to take a step back and evaluate how fixated you are on homosexuality.
Well, as a straight person I guess the scene was not intended for me, or something? Nevertheless, I still got misty eyed because it was about so much more than Dorian being gay.
For me, it was about the relationship of a parent and child. A trust that was heinously transgressed. Dorian's father even betrayed his own--spoken..beliefs. It was a reflection of how your child can be your greatest teacher. I mean, yeah, you can be all for gay rights and gay marriage, but are you still gonna be cool when it's your child that comes out and says they're gay?
But the part that got me was the chance at redemption. Forgiveness. Dorian's father came to ask for forgiveness. He did not know if he could receive it, but he came for it anyway. In the end--after Dorian left his family--all that other stuff that seemed so important, no longer mattered. He missed his son. He realized that his son, and his love for his for his son, meant more to him than anything else. And hoped they could have a second chance.
..ack i'm getting misty eyed just thinking abt it.
So, while it was about Dorian being gay, or rather not wanting to pretend he was not gay. For me it was also about several other things. Like making horrible mistakes and hurting the ones you love the most. Realizing that and then hoping for a second chance. Hoping for forgiveness.
Well, as a straight person I guess the scene was not intended for me, or something? Nevertheless, I still got misty eyed because it was about so much more than Dorian being gay.
For me, it was about the relationship of a parent and child. A trust that was heinously transgressed. Dorian's father even betrayed his own--spoken..beliefs. It was a reflection of how your child can be your greatest teacher. I mean, yeah, you can be all for gay rights and gay marriage, but are you still gonna be cool when it's your child that comes out and says they're gay?
But the part that got me was the chance at redemption. Forgiveness. Dorian's father came to ask for forgiveness. He did not know if he could receive it, but he came for it anyway. In the end--after Dorian left his family--all that other stuff that seemed so important, no longer mattered. He missed his son. He realized that his son, and his love for his for his son, meant more to him than anything else. And hoped they could have a second chance.
..ack i'm getting misty eyed just thinking abt it.
So, while it was about Dorian being gay, or rather not wanting to pretend he was not gay. For me it was also about several other things. Like making horrible mistakes and hurting the ones you love the most. Realizing that and then hoping for a second chance. Hoping for forgiveness.
It totally threw me for a loop. I'm like, "okay, this dude wants to get his son's approval again," and then all the ugly stuff comes out and then there are all of these things going on re: he and his father's relationship. The blood magic bit really hit a nerve and I totally wanted to "judge" that guy - my Quizzy was VERY uncouth in this playthrough- but it was interesting because you could see that there was a helluva lot more going on with his dad than what it seemed on the surface. He was clearly disturbed. I like that one can see this is a chance for redemption and yet still have doubts about whether it's genuine or not, because it goes so far against sanitized Lifetime channel-esque depictions. Seeing him finally come around to them reconciling with each other was incredibly genuine - I like how BW made sure the scene itself implied that it was private.
If all you got from that quest was "lol he's gay" you really need to take a step back and evaluate how fixated you are on homosexuality.
Right. Because I was part of the marketing team at Bioware that wouldn't shut up about how progressive they were for having gay character. Something I have seen done respectfully in games 20 years older Dragon Age.
As it turns out, Dorian's sexuality is something I dont care about. It is, or rather should be, irrelevant. There is more to the character than being gay.
Anyone who actually believes that the true purpose of this quest is to be "anti-arranged marriage" is either blind or fooling themselves.
Actually the entire point of the quest was for you to discover that Dorian left his beloved home country, his father who he loved, and the pampered lifestyle that was all he knew in order to be his own person, stand up for what he thought was right, and be instrumental in making the changes he wished to see in the world.
If all you got from that quest was "lol he's gay" you really need to take a step back and evaluate how fixated you are on homosexuality.
Except that we knew that before the quest happens. You learn that when you talk to him after reaching Skyhold. The quest had nothing to do with it. Further, the reason he left was because of him being gay. He comments on the arranged marriage, but it doesn't bother him and you might never even learn it if you don't take Dorian and Varric in a party together.
Right. Because I was part of the marketing team at Bioware that wouldn't shut up about how progressive they were for having gay character. Something I have seen done respectfully in games 20 years older Dragon Age.
As it turns out, Dorian's sexuality is something I dont care about. It is, or rather should be, irrelevant. There is more to the character than being gay.
Anyone who actually believes that the true purpose of this quest is to be "anti-arranged marriage" is either blind or fooling themselves.
Yes, I know. At least someone else sees it. Eventually, gay or straight, you stop having sex and get out of bed (or wherever).
Any who believe the quest is about father-son estrangement for reasons other than homosexuality are deluding themselves. It opens up about it, they spend more time talking about it, and they conclude on that nature. We don't hear him hate Daddy for any other reason. He dislikes the idea of an arranged marriage, but it's clear it doesn't bother him. We hear him dislike slavery, but he doesn't actually do anything about that either. The only thing he does other than be gay is dislike Venatori, but all of the characters do that and he didn't know about the Venatori until after he met Felix.
Right. Because I was part of the marketing team at Bioware that wouldn't shut up about how progressive they were for having gay character. Something I have seen done respectfully in games 20 years older Dragon Age.
As it turns out, Dorian's sexuality is something I dont care about. It is, or rather should be, irrelevant. There is more to the character than being gay.
Anyone who actually believes that the true purpose of this quest is to be "anti-arranged marriage" is either blind or fooling themselves.
No, being gay in a society that patronizes homosexual relationships and "anti-arranged marriage" are just a couple of several themes being covered. Dorian isn't even my favorite character and I can point out numerous things about him that go beyond him being gay, especially in terms of his personality and political views on Tevinter society and magic in general.
It's latently problematic that you ignore all those aspects about him and continue pretending that it's all about him being gay as part of some kind of "progressive message". It's not.
Dorian isn't even my favorite character and I can point out numerous things about him that go beyond him being gay, especially in terms of his personality and political views on Tevinter society and magic in general.
Ah ah ah, dont put words in my mouth. Thats very rude you know?
Dorian is, in fact, one of my favorite characters. And, as i had already said, i believe his homosexuality to be irrelevant. He does play numerous roles out side of "Gay guy. he is a fascinating character, and the glimpse into Tavinter that i have wanted for years. THOSE are the important aspects of Dorian.
So if those are the parts of him that matter-- His wit, charm, and attitudes towards mages and Tavinter politics-- then why on earth is his PERSONAL QUEST about nothing more than him being gay?!
"I prefer the company of men, my father disapproves" and "You tried to turn me straight" dont have very many paths of intent.
I liked the quest myself I thought it was more about the father/son dynamic than the being gay thing like others have mentioned. The wrap up conversation in Skyhold is probably one of my favorite Inquisition moments strangely enough. The part when the Inquisitor tell Dorian that she thinks he is brave for walking his own path. The way Dorian smiles is so great...
But yeah I see the scene more about Dorian not wanting to live the type of life his family has laid out for him and rebelling against it.
Can we please tone down the "cis white male" pejoratives here?
I have to ask because moderators won't do anything.
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