160 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Doesn't change a damn thing. It's all about acceptance of sexuality. You could take all of that away and the scene would still play out: It actually does. Clearly, you have to probe it to do so. By contrast, if you just go into the scene, it's about nothing but being gay. 

 

Like I said, you could take it out and the scene would be the exact same. It's about how being gay is seen as a flaw and that's BAD! 

 

It's about caring more about who you are as an individual than aspiring for social status. The fact that Dorian's willing to be open about this by not marrying means that the Parvus legacy will forever be tarnished. That's how obsessed with success they are there, and that was obviously the only reason his father was concerned about him. As the "Sexuality in Thedas" codex reads re: Tevinter:

"In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves." When their fixation with intermarrying to achieve social status is taken into account, it's clear that sex is a means to an end in Tevinter which is fundamentally intertwined in social class, and anything that doesn't fulfill that end is discouraged amongst the ambitious, obviously why his father tried to "change" him when he chose not to intermarry. Being gay in itself is not bad to them when put into perspective. 

 

And let's not use a common gaming aspect in BW RPG's as a rebuttal. It's just bad.

[daveliam]

Doesn't change a damn thing. It's all about acceptance of sexuality. You could take all of that away and the scene would still play out: It actually does. Clearly, you have to probe it to do so. By contrast, if you just go into the scene, it's about nothing but being gay. 

 

Like I said, you could take it out and the scene would be the exact same. It's about how being gay is seen as a flaw and that's BAD! 

 

Wait, so your issue is that you can choose to ignore half of the dialogue in the scene and then you aren't happy with how it plays out?  Am I the only one missing the issue here?  If you aren't happy with how it could be all about sexuality if you ignore the other dialogue, then.......don't ignore the other dialogue so it's not all about sexuality?

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I don't think everyone has to like the exact way it was included in the story, and I think the "it comes off as A Very Special Episode" criticism is valid.

 

To offer an example of a less emotionally-charged topic, imagine if Cullen's lyrium addiction arc had no option to push him towards taking the drug.  You could only say very anti-drug things, and there was a scene where all of the companions gathered, sat in a circle, and told him about the evils of drugs.  Fade to black.

 

Good message?  Sure.  Poor execution?  I'd say yes, but at the very least, it's arguable.

 

As someone else said, if the scene was about arranged marriages, then the player most likely would have been given an option to side with the father.  The human Inquisitor especially, who is or was likely under a very similar pressure to marry for power and not for love, might have something unique to say about that.  From Cammen's quest in Origins, we know how Dalish courtship can be similarly position-based, though obviously not to the same degree as noble family matching.

 

It's possible to wholeheartedly agree with a message but disagree with the means with which it was delivered.

 

I don't think everyone has to like the quest.  But I also think that the people who argue that it's "all about his sexuality" made up their minds prior to completing the quest and the selectively ignore the rest of the context and character development. 

 

Again, it's not just about arranged marriages, just like it's not just about him being gay.  It's the conflation of the two.  Dorian pushes back on the arranged marriage partially because he's gay.  The two issues collide to create this situation.  Siding with Dorian's father would mean that you are telling your ally that, sexuality be damned, you think he should either just suck it up and marry a lady OR that blood magic gay reparative therapy is okay.  Could they have added it in?  Yeah, sure.  But clearly that's not the story that Gaider wanted to tell.  The writers have to limit options in the game and this is how Gaider chose to limit this story.  And, frankly, it's not surprising. 

[Rekkampum]

Wait, so your issue is that you can choose to ignore half of the dialogue in the scene and then you aren't happy with how it plays out?  Am I the only one missing the issue here?  If you aren't happy with how it could be all about sexuality if you ignore the other dialogue, then.......don't ignore the other dialogue so it's not all about sexuality?

 

 

I don't think everyone has to like the quest.  But I also think that the people who argue that it's "all about his sexuality" made up their minds prior to completing the quest and the selectively ignore the rest of the context and character development. 

 

Again, it's not just about arranged marriages, just like it's not just about him being gay.  It's the conflation of the two.  Dorian pushes back on the arranged marriage partially because he's gay.  The two issues collide to create this situation.  Siding with Dorian's father would mean that you are telling your ally that, sexuality be damned, you think he should either just suck it up and marry a lady OR that blood magic gay reparative therapy is okay.  Could they have added it in?  Yeah, sure.  But clearly that's not the story that Gaider wanted to tell.  The writers have to limit options in the game and this is how Gaider chose to limit this story.  And, frankly, it's not surprising. 

 

That needs to be repeated.

[DuskWanderer]

It's about caring more about who you are as an individual than aspiring for social status. The fact that Dorian's willing to be open about this by not marrying means that the Parvus legacy will forever be tarnished. That's how obsessed with success they are there, and that was obviously the only reason his father was concerned about him. As the "Sexuality in Thedas" codex reads re: Tevinter:

"In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves." When their fixation with intermarrying to achieve social status is taken into account, it's clear that sex is a means to an end in Tevinter which is fundamentally intertwined in social class, and anything that doesn't fulfill that end is discouraged amongst the ambitious, obviously why his father tried to "change" him when he chose not to intermarry. Being gay in itself is not bad to them when put into perspective. 

 

And let's not use a common gaming aspect in BW RPG's as a rebuttal. It's just bad.

 

Your argument makes no sense. It's never been about "caring as an individual" because Dorian never brings that up unless you force him. Daddy never brings it up even if you ask him. The scene can play out without Livia even existing and the story wouldn't change. That is the problem. It is only about being gay unless you force the issue into something different. If the marrying aspect was important, it would have been front and center. As it stands, you could ignore Livia entirely and the scene doesn't change. By contrast, take away the homosexuality, and you have to rewrite the whole thing. That makes it clear what the story is about. 

[DuskWanderer]

Wait, so your issue is that you can choose to ignore half of the dialogue in the scene and then you aren't happy with how it plays out?  Am I the only one missing the issue here?  If you aren't happy with how it could be all about sexuality if you ignore the other dialogue, then.......don't ignore the other dialogue so it's not all about sexuality?

 

 

I don't think everyone has to like the quest.  But I also think that the people who argue that it's "all about his sexuality" made up their minds prior to completing the quest and the selectively ignore the rest of the context and character development. 

 

Again, it's not just about arranged marriages, just like it's not just about him being gay.  It's the conflation of the two.  Dorian pushes back on the arranged marriage partially because he's gay.  The two issues collide to create this situation.  Siding with Dorian's father would mean that you are telling your ally that, sexuality be damned, you think he should either just suck it up and marry a lady OR that blood magic gay reparative therapy is okay.  Could they have added it in?  Yeah, sure.  But clearly that's not the story that Gaider wanted to tell.  The writers have to limit options in the game and this is how Gaider chose to limit this story.  And, frankly, it's not surprising. 

 

My issue is that the arranged marriage is ultimately secondary (an optional secondary, at that). If Livia never existed, the scene plays out exactly the same. You still have the blood magic heteronormative crusader and Daddy with Gay Son. You have to force it to be about something else, and even then, it's not even mentioned by the end of the scene. It's all about one thing, one after school special delivered in the same way all of them do it. 

 

The reason why Cullen and the lyrium addiction worked was twofold: One, it tackled an issue not often tackled by anyone very well (the withdrawal symptoms being utterly debilitating. Usually, drug PSAs are "drugs are bad." They also tend to deal with the temptation to use, not someone who is already on it) and two, it had real consequences. Cullen is having weak moments not because he needs the taste of lyrium, but because he knows he needs to be at his best, and that could include taking a drug that is terrible for him because withdrawal's symptoms are preventing him from doing his job, a very important one. It's a horrible thing to tell someone to go back on drugs, but it had a very good reason. 

 

Dorian didn't have that. It was the same cliche. That's all it was. No twists, no human Inquisitor telling him that marriage is simply a means to an end and not who he is, no one telling him to use the situation to his advantage, like changing Tevinter for the better. It's all "I'm gay, you don't love me, and that's BAD!" 

 

I expect nuance and twists. Not cliches. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Your argument makes no sense. It's never been about "caring as an individual" because Dorian never brings that up unless you force him. Daddy never brings it up even if you ask him. The scene can play out without Livia even existing and the story wouldn't change. That is the problem. It is only about being gay unless you force the issue into something different. If the marrying aspect was important, it would have been front and center. As it stands, you could ignore Livia entirely and the scene doesn't change. By contrast, take away the homosexuality, and you have to rewrite the whole thing. That makes it clear what the story is about. 

 

How much more front and center can you get than:

 

"You wanted what was best for *you*.  You and you f***ing legacy! Anything for that!"

 

That was *the* wham line of the whole scene. It plays no matter what.

 

What do you think Dorian is referring to here?  Answer- his father placing importance on marriage to continue the family line.

[DuskWanderer]

How much more front and center can you get than:

 

"You wanted what was best for *you*.  You and you f***ing legacy! Anything for that!"

 

That was *the* wham line of the whole scene. It plays no matter what.

 

What do you think Dorian is referring to here?  Answer- his father placing importance on marriage to continue the family line.

 

Incorrect

 

Answer: The perfect son. The perfect, not-gay son.

[Rekkampum]

Your argument makes no sense. It's never been about "caring as an individual" because Dorian never brings that up unless you force him. Daddy never brings it up even if you ask him. The scene can play out without Livia even existing and the story wouldn't change. That is the problem. It is only about being gay unless you force the issue into something different. If the marrying aspect was important, it would have been front and center. As it stands, you could ignore Livia entirely and the scene doesn't change. By contrast, take away the homosexuality, and you have to rewrite the whole thing. That makes it clear what the story is about. 

 

No, you don't. If he were asexual and unromanceable and chose to not to marry the same amount of shame would be brought down on his family. His sexuality in the end isn't the reason his father did what he did, although it was a factor. He could've simply married and had himself his own personal boy toy and no one would've batted an eye. But Dorian didn't want that kind of life.

 

But yes, please keep ignoring those facts and pretending it's all about "teh gay". It's exactly why he gets annoyed when choosing in convo that his being gay surprised the Quizzy.

 

This is getting circular, so this is my last post on the subject.

[daveliam]

My issue is that the arranged marriage is ultimately secondary (an optional secondary, at that). If Livia never existed, the scene plays out exactly the same. You still have the blood magic heteronormative crusader and Daddy with Gay Son. You have to force it to be about something else, and even then, it's not even mentioned by the end of the scene. It's all about one thing, one after school special delivered in the same way all of them do it. 

 

The reason why Cullen and the lyrium addiction worked was twofold: One, it tackled an issue not often tackled by anyone very well (the withdrawal symptoms being utterly debilitating. Usually, drug PSAs are "drugs are bad." They also tend to deal with the temptation to use, not someone who is already on it) and two, it had real consequences. Cullen is having weak moments not because he needs the taste of lyrium, but because he knows he needs to be at his best, and that could include taking a drug that is terrible for him because withdrawal's symptoms are preventing him from doing his job, a very important one. It's a horrible thing to tell someone to go back on drugs, but it had a very good reason. 

 

Dorian didn't have that. It was the same cliche. That's all it was. No twists, no human Inquisitor telling him that marriage is simply a means to an end and not who he is, no one telling him to use the situation to his advantage, like changing Tevinter for the better. It's all "I'm gay, you don't love me, and that's BAD!" 

 

I expect nuance and twists. Not cliches. 

 

You clearly are just refusing to accept the incredibly valid points that are being presented here to refute this assertion.  You've made up your mind on what you think the scene is about and are willfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it.  Sorry that you didn't like this story.  I liked it and thought it was very well written and acted.  I also think it was much more complex than you are willing to admit.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this since you have your opinions and I have mine. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

You clearly are just refusing to accept the incredibly valid points that are being presented here to refute this assertion.  You've made up your mind on what you think the scene is about and are willfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it.  Sorry that you didn't like this story.  I liked it and thought it was very well written and acted.  I also think it was much more complex than you are willing to admit.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this since you have your opinions and I have mine. 

I don't know why anyone is still bothering to argue with him about it. You can't debate something with someone who willfully ignores what actually happens.

[Hazegurl]

If you ask me Cullen's addiction story wasn't all that great.

 

-They do not address the benefits of Lyrium. Instead it was "Lyrium is bad" just like "Drugs are bad."

-Cullen magically recovers based solely on the player giving him a pep talk

 

Meanwhile

 

-No matter what Dorian may never forgive his father and may never completely patch things up with him.

-Dorian still has issues with self esteem and his own self worth

-Dorian still has a drinking problem (this can be debated)

-Dorian's desire to return home at the end stems from his love for his country and a desire to see it better than it has been.

 

Hm, which one seems more like an after school special?

[DuskWanderer]

No, you don't. If he were asexual and unromanceable and chose to not to marry the same amount of shame would be brought down on his family. His sexuality in the end isn't the reason his father did what he did, although it was a factor. He could've simply married and had himself his own personal boy toy and no one would've batted an eye. But Dorian didn't want that kind of life.

 

But yes, please keep ignoring those facts and pretending it's all about "teh gay". It's exactly why he gets annoyed when choosing in convo that his being gay surprised the Quizzy.

 

This is getting circular, so this is my last post on the subject.

 

You are ignoring facts. If it was about choosing what he wanted, he would have made it about that. He would have mentioned other things such as, I don't know, being a painter. Traveling the world. Not having slaves. Giving up the seat on the Magisterium. Devoting resources to roads or what have you, all the other crap we see that's wrong in Tevinter.

 

But it's not. Livia doesn't have to get mentioned. Nothing else is ever mentioned. It's about Daddy trying to turn him straight with Blood Magic, and not accepting his gay son. That's all. Play through the scene again. Pay very close attention to the dialogue. 

[DuskWanderer]

You clearly are just refusing to accept the incredibly valid points that are being presented here to refute this assertion.  You've made up your mind on what you think the scene is about and are willfully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it.  Sorry that you didn't like this story.  I liked it and thought it was very well written and acted.  I also think it was much more complex than you are willing to admit.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this since you have your opinions and I have mine. 

 

You only think they are valid because they support your conclusion, not because they are based in fact. The scene is about what is presented, not the massive stretches and leaps of logic you're throwing in. 

[daveliam]

-Dorian still has issues with self esteem and his own self worth

-Dorian still has a drinking problem (this can be debated)

 

These two pieces are the ones that I found particularly compelling.  I've had so many gay friends who have a real lack of self-worth and self-esteem because of issues of acceptance from their families.  And many of them turn to drinking, drugs, and casual sex as a way to feel something.  Feel in control.  Feel that they are worthy.  Feel like they don't care about what others think.  The fact that Dorian's character arc dances around these themes without hitting you over the head with them was really interesting.  And I'd add that the speed at which he can be romanced and the fact that he's genuinely surprised that you want it to be serious speaks to this as well. I saw, in Dorian, many friends of mine being reflected.  It was really well done, in my opinion. 

[DuskWanderer]

If you ask me Cullen's addiction story wasn't all that great.

 

-They do not address the benefits of Lyrium. Instead it was "Lyrium is bad" just like "Drugs are bad."

-Cullen magically recovers based solely on the player giving him a pep talk

 

Meanwhile

 

-No matter what Dorian may never forgive his father and may never completely patch things up with him.

-Dorian still has issues with self esteem and his own self worth

-Dorian still has a drinking problem (this can be debated)

-Dorian's desire to return home at the end stems from his love for his country and a desire to see it better than it has been.

 

Hm, which one seems more like an after school special?

 

You might actually want to play through it again. The benefits of lyrium on a person have been told in every game thus far. It's also, specifically, with no prompting, mentions what is wrong and how taking drugs will fix it, even if it does something terrible to Cullen himself (again, something that has been presented in all of the games until now. Note the weepy templar in Arl Howe's dungeon, Samson, and even Meredith herself.) 

 

Cullen does not "magically recover." Leliana and Cassandra both specifically mention his suffering. 

 

 

Dorian is the after-school special. All the things you described *are* after school special. But I doubt you'll see reason. 

[sandalisthemaker]

You are ignoring facts. If it was about choosing what he wanted, he would have made it about that. He would have mentioned other things such as, I don't know, being a painter. Traveling the world. Not having slaves. Giving up the seat on the Magisterium. Devoting resources to roads or what have you, all the other crap we see that's wrong in Tevinter.

 

But it's not. Livia doesn't have to get mentioned. Nothing else is ever mentioned. It's about Daddy trying to turn him straight with Blood Magic, and not accepting his gay son. That's all. Play through the scene again. Pay very close attention to the dialogue. 

 

 

Why can't being gay be a part of a character's story? Dorian isn't a one-dimensional character by any means. Being gay isn't the entirety of what he is about, but neither did his writer want it to be something that people could just overlook or tune out.  I've seen in many threads, especially romance threads, where posters will say that they want BioWare to write the characters that they want to write, and here we have Dorian whom Gaider has been wanting to write for some time now. 

 

I'm positive that there were a lot of emotions that went into writing that scene, and a message was definitely there. That message may not resound with you (speaking in general) on a personal level, and/or you may not like what the message entailed, but there are people for whom that message is gladly received and welcomed. 

[hong]

I think the issue here is that Dorian has a very modern attitude to sexual identity, and that's throwing people off. As has been mentioned, his father likely doesn't have a problem with his preference for men as such. He just wants him to do his familial duties and get a kid, so that the family name will continue. But Dorian doesn't want to live a lie by pretending to be het and marrying someone he doesn't love (and in fact hates), hence drama ensues.

I had no problems with the quest, and felt it was handled very tastefully and sensitively. It doesn't make the father out to be an utterly horrible person, which would have been the easy way out; nor does it really have a happily-ever-after resolution, which was realistic. It highlighted that Dorian can't have it all, simply because of who he is: he wants to love his father like other sons do, but it can't happen because of circumstances out of his control. That said, his attitude is definitely a modern one, and seems somewhat... unexpected given what's known about Tevinter. This is particularly so, since the rest of DAI is remarkably free of anachronisms compared to other fantasy material out there.

[CuriousArtemis]

Exactly.  I couldn't do it.  That's why I sent Alistair in to do the deed.  My gay Aeducan was like, "Uh, I'll pass, gurl......"

 

*grits teeth* I didn't have enough persuasion to make Alistair do it my first playthrough!  Left me with such a bad taste in my mouth I ultimately killed that Warden off via US in the Keep

[Hazegurl]

These two pieces are the ones that I found particularly compelling.  I've had so many gay friends who have a real lack of self-worth and self-esteem because of issues of acceptance from their families.  And many of them turn to drinking, drugs, and casual sex as a way to feel something.  Feel in control.  Feel that they are worthy.  Feel like they don't care about what others think.  The fact that Dorian's character arc dances around these themes without hitting you over the head with them was really interesting.  And I'd add that the speed at which he can be romanced and the fact that he's genuinely surprised that you want it to be serious speaks to this as well. I saw, in Dorian, many friends of mine being reflected.  It was really well done, in my opinion. 

Right, I love that the game sort of keeps these aspects of Dorian's issues vague to the point where players can interpret it for themselves, Dorian isn't the type to bash the IQ upside the head with his problems (ex: amulet quest) the IQ has to almost seek it out and thus it can sort of cause the player to seek out other possibly hidden problems with him. It all fits so well with his character.

 

 

You might actually want to play through it again. The benefits of lyrium on a person have been told in every game thus far. It's also, specifically, with no prompting, mentions what is wrong and how taking drugs will fix it, even if it does something terrible to Cullen himself (again, something that has been presented in all of the games until now. Note the weepy templar in Arl Howe's dungeon, Samson, and even Meredith herself.) 

 

Cullen does not "magically recover." Leliana and Cassandra both specifically mention his suffering. 

 

 

Dorian is the after-school special. All the things you described *are* after school special. But I doubt you'll see reason. 

I've had multiple playthroughs and it's all the same from my pov.  Cass now reveals that Templar abilities can be done just fine with no lyrium thus eliminating any reason to take it.  So it simply boils down to "Lyrium is bad and is the Chantry's leash on Templars and therefore it should 100% not be taken at all." Cullen suffers the typical withdrawal issues and then it's "Don't take Lyrium." He stops, doesn't slip up. Yeah he's still suffering....from his drug habit. Which is all you really get out of him.

 

Oh yeah and don't forget that every Templar all across the land stop taking Lyrium because of him. Problem solved.

 

Meanwhile...

 

Dorian is inspired to change a country where the most powerful kill each other for sport and could very well die doing so. Dorian's desires are far beyond "daddy not loving his gay son".  While Cullen is all about "Kicking my drug habit"

 

You're the one who fail to see that Cullen's story is the Template for A.S.S ( )

[daveliam]

I think the issue here is that Dorian has a very modern attitude to sexual identity, and that's throwing people off. As has been mentioned, his father likely doesn't have a problem with his preference for men as such. He just wants him to do his familial duties and get a kid, so that the family name will continue. But Dorian doesn't want to live a lie by pretending to be het and marrying someone he doesn't love (and in fact hates), hence drama ensues.

I had no problems with the quest, and felt it was handled very tastefully and sensitively. It doesn't make the father out to be an utterly horrible person, which would have been the easy way out; nor does it really have a happily-ever-after resolution, which was realistic. It highlighted that Dorian can't have it all, simply because of who he is: he wants to love his father like other sons do, but it can't happen because of circumstances out of his control. That said, his attitude is definitely a modern one, and seems somewhat... unexpected given what's known about Tevinter. This is particularly so, since the rest of DAI is remarkably free of anachronisms compared to other fantasy material out there.

 

This is an interesting point, the anachronism.  It's interesting because they've set up a society where non-hetero sexualities aren't discriminated against, but the setting is one in which you would expect the opposite.  So 'modern' takes on sexuality are viewed as anachronistic to the setting, but aren't really because they've stated that the worst discrimination a gay person might face is exactly what Dorian's going through. 

 

*grits teeth* I didn't have enough persuasion to make Alistair do it my first playthrough!  Left me with such a bad taste in my mouth I ultimately killed that Warden off via US in the Keep

 

Oh dear.  That's.....unfortunate.  I didn't know that this was a possibility.  I would be so disappointed if the only way that my Warden could survive is to have straight sex.  Could you imagine the outrage that would ensue if the only way for a Warden to survive was to have gay sex or high enough persuasion to convince Alistair to have gay sex?  Yikes. 

[TOply]

Incorrect

Answer: The perfect son. The perfect, not-gay son.

Papa Parvus doesn't care if Dorian is gay, he cares that Dorian wouldn't play along and produce an heir. That's the legacy he wants to preserve. As long as Dorian is willing to fake it and maintain a public facade, Daddy Parvus would probably let him keep any relationship he wants on the down low. So, yes, Dorian's sexuality IS a large component in the conflict but it doesn't define it.

If Dorian were straight and wanted to marry a female Dwarf instead of whoever his parents have arranged for him, the overarcing conflict would remain unchanged; the only change comes from his reason for not wanting to conform to the role that society and his family have imposed upon him.

[daveliam]

You're the one who fail to see that Cullen's story is the Template for A.S.S ( )

 

What was that about Cullen's ass?  Oh, did I misread that?  Just wishful thinking on my part, I guess.  Nevermind......

[hong]

This is an interesting point, the anachronism.  It's interesting because they've set up a society where non-hetero sexualities aren't discriminated against, but the setting is one in which you would expect the opposite.  So 'modern' takes on sexuality are viewed as anachronistic to the setting, but aren't really because they've stated that the worst discrimination a gay person might face is exactly what Dorian's going through.

I'm the last person who would know about this, but my impression is that the Codex entry on sexual attitudes in Thedas is actually quite accurate for the location and time period (roughly late Renaissance/early Reformation Europe). People generally didn't care what you did in private, as long as you did what was expected of you in public. Maybe Thedas is more relaxed than historical reality, but I don't think it's by much. Nowadays, the line between private and public personas has been eroded somewhat.

[daveliam]

I'm the last person who would know about this, but my impression is that the Codex entry on sexual attitudes in Thedas is actually quite accurate for the location and time period (roughly late Renaissance/early Reformation Europe). People generally didn't care what you did in private, as long as you did what was expected of you in public. Maybe Thedas is more relaxed than historical reality, but I don't think it's by much. Nowadays, the line between private and public personas has been eroded somewhat.

 

I'm also not an expert on this, but I think the big difference is that there has always been a bias against s/s relationships in western history because it's grounded in Christian lore, which is often interpreted as having that bias.  There's no such bias in Chantry lore, so that's why it's not here?  At least that's my take on it. 

[Steelcan]

I'm also not an expert on this, but I think the big difference is that there has always been a bias against s/s relationships in western history because it's grounded in Christian lore, which is often interpreted as having that bias.  There's no such bias in Chantry lore, so that's why it's not here?  At least that's my take on it. 

if you'd like I can talk about a brief over view of the West's relationship with homosexuality/bisexuality, but that's best for PM