if you'd like I can talk about a brief over view of the West's relationship with homosexuality/bisexuality, but that's best for PM
Yeah, I'm always up for that. I'm about to log off for the night, but I'm certainly up for it. Combining my love of western history and lgbt history? I'm in!
Oh dear. That's.....unfortunate. I didn't know that this was a possibility. I would be so disappointed if the only way that my Warden could survive is to have straight sex. Could you imagine the outrage that would ensue if the only way for a Warden to survive was to have gay sex or high enough persuasion to convince Alistair to have gay sex? Yikes.
Yeeep. Second playthrough: max out persuasion before putting points in ANYTHING ELSE 
And no, I can't imagine that, because I live in a world where there still aren't any gay people on Star Trek.
I'm trying to think of another video game that explores this dynamic. I'm coming up at a loss. Has it been explored in other media? Of course. But I don't remember it being explored in video games before and I tend to pick and play pretty much any game that has gay content.
Regarding the idea that there is more to be told than just this story? Of course. I agree. And that's why I pointed out specifically that the fact that only 1 out of 5 gay characters in Bioware games have this story is important. If it became the go-to gay story, it would be disappointing. But having it show up once is not a problem at all. Juhani? She has an implied female lover, but her sexuality doesn't play a role in her story. Steve? He lost his husband, but his sexuality doesn't play a role in his story. Samantha? She has a crush on EDI but her sexuality doesn't play a role in her story. Sera? Her sexuality is barely mentioned. I'm not seeing a problem with having one gay character in the history of a company's games that speaks to a common experience for gay people.
Is it a common story? Yeah, it is. Does that mean that it should never be told again? Absolutely not. Especially since it's something that gay people deal with all the time still. The fact that people can relate to it is what makes it a compelling story. Maybe not for you, but certainly for others. Look, I think that stories that play with themes of religion and faith are played out, but I recognize that it's probably because I don't relate to them. I don't think there's a problem with them being included, even if they were to heavily favor one perspective.
I suppose that in this case, it's a matter of what you're more focused on, this story being told in this medium or this story being told in general. Me, this story has been something I see as almost 'the default' story for gay characters, regardless of the medium, which is why I'm disappointed, why I wish that there would have been a different story for Dorian. I want OTHER stories, because this is the story that I so commonly get when I'm looking at media with gay characters. To me, Dorian's story doesn't feel like it's got much if anything that significantly differentiates it from a dozen other stories like it. Maybe this isn't something that has been addressed in this medium before, but to me, it's the most common story I've seen for gay characters, which makes it disappointing for me that this is the story he has, the story for the first gay male companion.
I'm also just generally disappointed that, in giving us a character dubbed 'the Redeemer,' his storyline shows nothing but reasons that make it feel like there can be no redemption for Tevinter. If this is supposed to be his title, his purpose, all I see in his personal quest is a reason to say that Tevinter is beyond redemption, that as a society, it's better off being burnt to the ground, rather than trying to salvage something. If he's going to live up to the title of 'the Redeemer,' the title given to him in all the build up to Inquisition's release, I would expect to see THAT as the heart of his personal quest, trying to show something about Tevinter that's worth redeeming, rather than being given this story that, regardless of if you want to call the events within it cliche or moving, has at the heart of it yet ANOTHER reason to hate Tevinter, as this is the society that spawned this attitude, that gave Dorian the cause to leave it behind.
Yeah, I'm always up for that. I'm about to log off for the night, but I'm certainly up for it. Combining my love of western history and lgbt history? I'm in!
might take me a bit to write up, can't really sum it up in a paragraph
Right, I love that the game sort of keeps these aspects of Dorian's issues vague to the point where players can interpret it for themselves, Dorian isn't the type to bash the IQ upside the head with his problems (ex: amulet quest) the IQ has to almost seek it out and thus it can sort of cause the player to seek out other possibly hidden problems with him. It all fits so well with his character.
I've had multiple playthroughs and it's all the same from my pov. Cass now reveals that Templar abilities can be done just fine with no lyrium thus eliminating any reason to take it. So it simply boils down to "Lyrium is bad and is the Chantry's leash on Templars and therefore it should 100% not be taken at all." Cullen suffers the typical withdrawal issues and then it's "Don't take Lyrium." He stops, doesn't slip up. Yeah he's still suffering....from his drug habit. Which is all you really get out of him.
Oh yeah and don't forget that every Templar all across the land stop taking Lyrium because of him. Problem solved.
Meanwhile...
Dorian is inspired to change a country where the most powerful kill each other for sport and could very well die doing so. Dorian's desires are far beyond "daddy not loving his gay son". While Cullen is all about "Kicking my drug habit"
You're the one who fail to see that Cullen's story is the Template for A.S.S (
You really need to learn to pay attention to the story. You didn't even remotely pay attention. I expect as such, considering you put your quotes and profile picture as Dorian, so you can't be looking at it objectively.
Let's try again, using the facts of the story:
Cassandra's abilities did not magically appear without the use of lyrium. She had to fast, was made Tranquil, and then a spirit of Faith restored her and the ability manifested. Seekers of Truth are very rare, and the failure rate is high. If it wasn't, the Rite of Tranquility would not have been realized. What you've described is outright fiction.
Further, no A.S.S. tells someone to start taking drugs again. But all of the ones about being gay is "Not liking him for being gay is BAD!"
The Templars didn't "all" take lyrium, you really didn't read. The quote from the Epilogue reads that many were inspired and went through the withdrawal. So that's...exactly the same thing you described with Dorian. Dorian's quests are all about being gay and Daddy not loving him: Changing Tevinter had nothing to do with his personal quest.
If you want to argue objectively, I can do that. But stop fabricating fiction, get over your love of the character, and commit to being objective, or just don't post at all.
Papa Parvus doesn't care if Dorian is gay, he cares that Dorian wouldn't play along and produce an heir. That's the legacy he wants to preserve. As long as Dorian is willing to fake it and maintain a public facade, Daddy Parvus would probably let him keep any relationship he wants on the down low. So, yes, Dorian's sexuality IS a large component in the conflict but it doesn't define it.
If Dorian were straight and wanted to marry a female Dwarf instead of whoever his parents have arranged for him, the overarcing conflict would remain unchanged; the only change comes from his reason for not wanting to conform to the role that society and his family have imposed upon him.
Why do all of you people keep making up this stupid thing? Livia never gets mentioned, and in fact, Dorian himself says that him being gay is the thing. Get over it, it was a cliche storyline. If you still like it, you still like it. But don't try and say it wasn't a cliche.
You really need to learn to pay attention to the story. You didn't even remotely pay attention. I expect as such, considering you put your quotes and profile picture as Dorian, so you can't be looking at it objectively.
Let's try again, using the facts of the story:
Cassandra's abilities did not magically appear without the use of lyrium. She had to fast, was made Tranquil, and then a spirit of Faith restored her and the ability manifested. Seekers of Truth are very rare, and the failure rate is high. If it wasn't, the Rite of Tranquility would not have been realized. What you've described is outright fiction.
Further, no A.S.S. tells someone to start taking drugs again. But all of the ones about being gay is "Not liking him for being gay is BAD!"
The Templars didn't "all" take lyrium, you really didn't read. The quote from the Epilogue reads that many were inspired and went through the withdrawal. So that's...exactly the same thing you described with Dorian. Dorian's quests are all about being gay and Daddy not loving him: Changing Tevinter had nothing to do with his personal quest.
If you want to argue objectively, I can do that. But stop fabricating fiction, get over your love of the character, and commit to being objective, or just don't post at all.
What are you hoping to achieve here?
At the end of the day, the quest is what it is and you can do nothing but froth at the mouth.
If you ask me Cullen's addiction story wasn't all that great.
-They do not address the benefits of Lyrium. Instead it was "Lyrium is bad" just like "Drugs are bad."
-Cullen magically recovers based solely on the player giving him a pep talk
Hm, which one seems more like an after school special?
How about neither?
Cullen clearly has nightmares he's not 100% okay now. But he's recovering and he's trying and most importantly he wants to improve himself. The PC didn't have to shove him to get him to stop taking lyrium. It's something Cullen wanted himself and the PC helps him reach for. Him having a set back is by no means the PC telling him to stop taking lyrium. It's the PC encouraging him to take the path he already started on his own. Or the PC encouraging his moment of weakness (and by god that scene in the smithy crushed me.)
Disney my ass.
Also you really didn't read that ending right. They don't keep their templar powers when they go off lyrium. Some of them join the Seekers. (Note the usage of some.) It's a long painful process.
You really need to learn to pay attention to the story.
Pot meet kettle.
Cassandra's abilities did not magically appear without the use of lyrium. She had to fast, was made Tranquil...
I already know that. The point is that she doesn't need Lyrium which reduces it to just being a drug the Chantry uses.
Further, no A.S.S. tells someone to start taking drugs again. But all of the ones about being gay is "Not liking him for being gay is BAD!"
And no A.S.S would have you treat the gay person like crap, punch them in the face(about something other than the theme of the story), and leave the tavern without resolving the issue.
The Templars didn't "all" take lyrium, you really didn't read. The quote from the Epilogue reads that many were inspired and went through the withdrawal. So that's...exactly the same thing you described with Dorian. Dorian's quests are all about being gay and Daddy not loving him: Changing Tevinter had nothing to do with his personal quest.
Yeah, that's what I said. Cullen inspires the rest to get off Lyrium thus a happy ending. Dorian does not get a happy ending in his personal quest. The matter is still unresolved. Thus Dorian moves on to other matters not even related to that one quest while the Epilogue slide is still attached to Cullen's personal quest.
If you want to argue objectively, I can do that. But stop fabricating fiction, get over your love of the character, and commit to being objective, or just don't post at all.
Uh oh. Looks like we got a badass over here. I better watch out.
Yeah, that's what I said. Cullen inspires the rest to get off Lyrium thus a happy ending. Dorian does not get a happy ending in his personal quest. The matter is still unresolved. Thus Dorian moves on to other matters not even related to that one quest while the Epilogue slide is still attached to Cullen's personal quest.
*facepalms*
For someone who just said they appreciated the subtleties of Dorian's story this is absurd.
You do realize this means that Thedas just lost a good portion of people with templar talents? And that Seekers can't replace them all? And that this might lead to increased tensions with the new and improved freedom mages?
Or does the game really need to spell that out?
How about neither?
Cullen clearly has nightmares he's not 100% okay now. But he's recovering and he's trying and most importantly he wants to improve himself. The PC didn't have to shove him to get him to stop taking lyrium. It's something Cullen wanted himself and the PC helps him reach for. Him having a set back is by no means the PC telling him to stop taking lyrium. It's the PC encouraging him to take the path he already started on his own. Or the PC encouraging his moment of weakness (and by god that scene in the smithy crushed me.)
Disney my ass.
Also you really didn't read that ending right. They don't keep their templar powers when they go off lyrium. Some of them join the Seekers. (Note the usage of some.) It's a long painful process.
I think a lot of the reason why Cullen's story underwhelmed me was because he was an adviser and therefore I didn't see him often. I liked Cullen and think he and my IQ had a better relationship than most of the companions following me but his story came across as a simple addiction story. Perhaps it has a lot to do with me watching those addiction documentaries which showcase much more than what DAI presented. But I felt that getting him off Lyrium was just too easy for someone who had been taking it for years. Sure he started the path and you're just keeping him on it but all it takes is one talk to steer him back on course then some background war table convo about it and essentially it's wrapped up by the epilogue.
The real problem his father had with him was that he wouldnt marry and have kids, continuation of the bloodlines is very important for any noble house in any kingdom, if Dorian accepted he wouldnt have tried change his sexuality.
Yeah, I felt the same. That Dorian's father was more concerned that Dorian wasn't worried about continuing the bloodline and didn't try to hide his homosexuality. If he married some woman and had a kid and then pretty much didn't touch his wife after that, I think Dorian's father wouldn't have cared either way.
Big thing is that I don't think Dorian being straight or bisexual would've changed things I think because Dorian's character was more about not wanting to conform to the what Tevinter nobility expects of him and wanting to change things. The quest was more about Dorian's father trying to apologize to his son and make amends.
I think a lot of the reason why Cullen's story underwhelmed me was because he was an adviser and therefore I didn't see him often. I liked Cullen and think he and my IQ had a better relationship than most of the companions following me but his story came across as a simple addiction story. Perhaps it has a lot to do with me watching those addiction documentaries which showcase much more than what DAI presented. But I felt that getting him off Lyrium was just too easy for someone who had been taking it for years. Sure he started the path and you're just keeping him on it but all it takes is one talk to steer him back on course then some background war table convo about it and essentially it's wrapped up by the epilogue.
As you just said you didn't speak to him much so of course much of his struggle wasn't in front of your face. Why would he want his commanding officer to see him that vulnerable? He doesn't even want you to see the bits that you do see.
But of course an addiction documentary would better showcase it than a video game. The same could be said for how Dorian's story was done. You can only get across so much nuisance in a short period of time.
As for it being too easy again you only see parts of his struggle you're not parry to most of his fight. Calling it disney is absurd. As for one talk have you forgotten your PC isn't the only one he discusses that with? Or is Cassandra suddenly a bump on the wall? You think she hasn't been supporting him despite the very fact that she does state that? Again you're viewing only a very small sliver of his struggle. (You get a bit more if you're romancing him).
As for the epilogue well yeah it takes place over most likely years.
I mean what? You wanted the game to show him frantic and begging for the lyrium more often than he already did?
*facepalms*
For someone who just said they appreciated the subtleties of Dorian's story this is absurd.
You do realize this means that Thedas just lost a good portion of people with templar talents? And that Seekers can't replace them all? And that this might lead to increased tensions with the new and improved freedom mages?
Or does the game really need to spell that out?
I'm not even saying all of that will never be an issue. I'm saying it's not one in DAI and it's certainly not Cullen's problem. The story of Cullen's addiction is complete. Everything else for another game.
I'm not even saying all of that will never be an issue. I'm saying it's not one in DAI and it's certainly not Cullen's problem. The story of Cullen's addiction is complete. Everything else for another game.
And that makes it disney because for the moment nothing's bad happened? 
As you just said you didn't speak to him much so of course much of his struggle wasn't in front of your face. Why would he want his commanding officer to see him that vulnerable? He doesn't even want you to see the bits that you do see.
But of course an addiction documentary would better showcase it than a video game. The same could be said for how Dorian's story was done. You can only get across so much nuisance in a short period of time.
As for it being too easy again you only see parts of his struggle you're not parry to most of his fight. Calling it disney is absurd. As for one talk have you forgotten your PC isn't the only one he discusses that with? Or is Cassandra suddenly a bump on the wall? You think she hasn't been supporting him despite the very fact that she does state that? Again you're viewing only a very small sliver of his struggle. (You get a bit more if you're romancing him).
As for the epilogue well yeah it takes place over most likely years.
I talked to him as much as the game allowed and yeah I know Cass is helping him, that doesn't help me see more of his story.... Overall, I just didn't romance him, which I'm sure offers additional content that let's you see more of his struggle. Fair enough. I don't like it when folks who didn't romance Dorian make snap judgements about his character when they've only experienced traces of it, I won't do it to Cullen. I will be romancing him in the future though. I can't let curly stay single forever. I'll reserve judgement on his story until then.
And that makes it disney because for the moment nothing's bad happened?
I only meant that Cullen's story is done as the rest would simply be the aftermath of more Templars withdrawing from Lyrium. It's not Cullen's issue anymore but the Chantry and Seekers.
I talked to him as much as the game allowed and yeah I know Cass is helping him, that doesn't help me see more of his story.... Overall, I just didn't romance him, which I'm sure offers additional content that let's you see more of his struggle. Fair enough. I don't like it when folks who didn't romance Dorian make snap judgements about his character when they've only experienced traces of it, I won't do it to Cullen. I will be romancing him in the future though. I can't let curly stay single forever. I'll reserve judgement on his story until then.
Then if you completed the perservence quest you should know all this already. You're only going to see so much because he doesn't want to be like that in front of you or his men. He can't afford to look that vulnerable and you catch him in moments where the mask slips. I mean...you don't need to romance him to see this. Cass flat out tells you, Cullen tells you he didn't want you to see him like that. So... *shrug*
Just I'm not sure how you got disney from that. BW has a bad habit of placing all the companions issues right in front of your face when most people aren't like that. Plenty of people are suffering and keep that to themselves instead of plastering it all about for the world to see.
I only meant that Cullen's story is done as the rest would simply be the aftermath of more Templars withdrawing from Lyrium. It's not Cullen's issue anymore but the Chantry and Seekers.
Again nothing about that makes it disney. It makes it a resolved plot line (on Cullen's behalf anyway).
You really need to learn to pay attention to the story. You didn't even remotely pay attention. I expect as such, considering you put your quotes and profile picture as Dorian, so you can't be looking at it objectively.
Let's try again, using the facts of the story:
Cassandra's abilities did not magically appear without the use of lyrium. She had to fast, was made Tranquil, and then a spirit of Faith restored her and the ability manifested. Seekers of Truth are very rare, and the failure rate is high. If it wasn't, the Rite of Tranquility would not have been realized. What you've described is outright fiction.
Further, no A.S.S. tells someone to start taking drugs again. But all of the ones about being gay is "Not liking him for being gay is BAD!"
The Templars didn't "all" take lyrium, you really didn't read. The quote from the Epilogue reads that many were inspired and went through the withdrawal. So that's...exactly the same thing you described with Dorian. Dorian's quests are all about being gay and Daddy not loving him: Changing Tevinter had nothing to do with his personal quest.
If you want to argue objectively, I can do that. But stop fabricating fiction, get over your love of the character, and commit to being objective, or just don't post at all.
You are such a hypocrite that it's downright hysterical.
You've said in another thread that Dorian is one of two characters you hate. Why does your negative emotional response allow you to be "objective" but someone else's positive emotional response devalues their interpretations?
Besides, you willfully ignore what actually happens in the quest in order to justify your own bias, so you really shouldn't be accusing anyone else while fabricating stones in your glass house.
Then if you completed the perservence quest you should know all this already. You're only going to see so much because he doesn't want to be like that in front of you or his men. He can't afford to look that vulnerable and you catch him in moments where the mask slips. I mean...you don't need to romance him to see this. Cass flat out tells you, Cullen tells you he didn't want you to see him like that. So... *shrug*
Just I'm not sure how you got disney from that. BW has a bad habit of placing all the companions issues right in front of your face when most people aren't like that. Plenty of people are suffering and keep that to themselves instead of plastering it all about for the world to see.
Right, he didn't want me to see him like that. I accept that. And because of that his story came across as a simple addiction story. I get that he's struggling behind closed doors but that is still just a part of his addiction story.
If you're saying I don't even have to reserve my judgement on it cause I've seen it all then my opinion stands that is an addiction story that gets resolved at the end of the game.
Right, he didn't want me to see him like that. I accept that. And because of that his story came across as a simple addiction story. I get that he's struggling behind closed doors but that is still just a part of his addiction story.
If you're saying I don't even have to reserve my judgement on it cause I've seen it all then my opinion stands that is an addiction story that gets resolved at the end of the game.
And that makes it no more disney than Dorian's story.
You disliking something doesn't make it light hearted or easily resolved just because you weren't privy to a struggle that wasn't your character's.
Pot meet kettle.
I already know that. The point is that she doesn't need Lyrium which reduces it to just being a drug the Chantry uses.
And no A.S.S would have you treat the gay person like crap, punch them in the face(about something other than the theme of the story), and leave the tavern without resolving the issue.
Yeah, that's what I said. Cullen inspires the rest to get off Lyrium thus a happy ending. Dorian does not get a happy ending in his personal quest. The matter is still unresolved. Thus Dorian moves on to other matters not even related to that one quest while the Epilogue slide is still attached to Cullen's personal quest.
Uh oh. Looks like we got a badass over here. I better watch out.
You need to try harder.
You already ignored the part that the Seeker rite can FAIL. It's not some magic thing everyone does. Remember, most Templars don't know anything about the Seekers other than that they are Internal Affairs.
Punching Dorian in the face has nothing to do with him being gay. And actually, yes, some stories do that: They want to show the puncher as the one in the wrong.
The templars epilogue matters because one chose the templars. Not all A.S.S result in happy endings, only that being anti-gay is BAD!
You really need to stop making up details.
And that makes it disney because for the moment nothing's bad happened?
I don't think he understands it.
You are such a hypocrite that it's downright hysterical.
You've said in another thread that Dorian is one of two characters you hate. Why does your negative emotional response allow you to be "objective" but someone else's positive emotional response devalues their interpretations?
Besides, you willfully ignore what actually happens in the quest in order to justify your own bias, so you really shouldn't be accusing anyone else while fabricating stones in your glass house.
I don't ignore anything. You simply ignore the fact that Dorian's personal story is all about him being gay unless you force the interpretation to mean something else. I must reiterate that Livia isn't mentioned, only that Dorian needs to be the "perfect little legacy". He starts with it about being gay, not about being forced to marry someone he hates, have a perfect mage child, or even not be drunk.
And even when you force the interrogation for him to bring her up, it doesn't get nearly as much focus, dialogue, or attention as him being gay. That's all, this is just facts and details. I can look at what was written and identify it. I might hate Dorian, but I'm not going to make anything up about him like the Dorian supporters do with their stretched thin interpretations.
It was completely forced, and done in a very cliche way. If that's what you like, fine. But that's what it was.
Cass now reveals that Templar abilities can be done just fine with no lyrium thus eliminating any reason to take it.
It's not that simple. Templars don't have special abilities without lyrium. Seekers do -- and theirs are the result of a year-long solitary vigil during which they are made Tranquil, then "healed" by a spirit of faith drawn to them by their devotion. And attracting these spirits is hard. Those Seeker candidates whose faith wasn't strong enough were quite left Tranquil. When Cassandra takes over, I don't think she'd let them stay that way since she's looking into a cure for Tranquility, but it's still far from a simple or easy manner.
Mind, I do agree that Cullen's addiction could have been handled better and in more detail. But he also said he stopped taking lyrium months ago, so we might not have seen the worst of it (which begs the question how well he was able to function early in Haven). Still, us not seeing much of his struggle is logical -- he doesn't WANT us to see. That sort of thing isn't something a newly appointed, inexperienced military leader would ever want to see dragged into the open. What would that do to the morale of the troops? What ammunition would it give the enemies of the Inquisition? Confiding in Cassandra and submitting to her judgment is enough, early on. Later he confides in the Inquisitor because she's formally his leader now and has a right to know -- but that doesn't mean she should know every detail of the struggle.
It's not that simple. Templars don't have special abilities without lyrium. Seekers do -- and theirs are the result of a year-long solitary vigil during which they are made Tranquil, then "healed" by a spirit of faith drawn to them by their devotion. And attracting these spirits is hard. Those Seeker candidates whose faith wasn't strong enough were quite left Tranquil. When Cassandra takes over, I don't think she'd let them stay that way since she's looking into a cure for Tranquility, but it's still far from a simple or easy manner.
Mind, I do agree that Cullen's addiction could have been handled better and in more detail. But he also said he stopped taking lyrium months ago, so we might not have seen the worst of it (which begs the question how well he was able to function early in Haven).
I get it and I agree that it takes a lot to become a Seeker and most likely Lyrium is a short cut and honestly, an understandable one from the Chantry perspective. Now it just seems like the Chantry are dope dealers. I have no love for the Chantry at all but I wish more was given to that story. It doesn't help with Samson walking (for those who side with mages) around with his "The Chantry made me an addict." whining.
Although If I were to add another side to Cullen's story, I would say that he is still dealing with his PTSD from the Fereldan Circle and the crap he stepped into in Kirkwall. Which does add depth to his story. I actually forgot about that.
I do wonder how long he was off the stuff before the game began I don't even know if I can compare it to cocaine or heroine or something to see if he should be suffering more or less by the time the IQ hears about it. I guess like almost all the companion content it's best left up to interpretation.
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