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[veeia]

I didn't expect this thread, which does have some good discussion and criticism (esp from dgcatansiri) despite the uh, plethora of not well well thought out arguments, to end up some sort of weird Cullen vs Dorian slap down, when clearly the answer is Cullen/Dorian, BUT I digress.

I found the story both too "obvious" (agreed that it's such a tired queer narrative) and emotional affecting and well nested in the world. It wasn't the subtlest, but it was textured and layered, so overall I liked it. It was also a little 2 real for me on many levels...and so I also agree that THE defining feature of it was to be able to just get Dorian the heck out of there and not give his father any sympathy. That was probably what meant the most to me, because that is rarer, and something that I wish was in those stories more, and also in real life. And def the point that Dorian still struggles with it, and his father, even if you are like "lol bye u suck" is presented as human.

Edit: and what I mean by "human" is just that he wasn't over the top monstrous, he felt believable, and I hated him for it, and that to me was more satisfying.

[Korva]

Yes, both Dorian and his father are very human. You can see pain and shame in his father -- enough to come for his son and attempt reconciliation -- but also, still, the attitude that Dorian is wrong as he is. Until he works that out in his own head and lets it go, there can't be true reconciliation, and I think that is part of why Dorian is so wistful and subdued afterwards. It's a start, a small start, but one that still hurts and has absolutely no guarantee of a happy ending. Definitely true to life, in too many cases.

[Ianamus]

I'm trying to think of another video game that explores this dynamic.  I'm coming up at a loss.  Has it been explored in other media?  Of course.  But I don't remember it being explored in video games before and I tend to pick and play pretty much any game that has gay content. 

 

Regarding the idea that there is more to be told than just this story?  Of course.  I agree.  And that's why I pointed out specifically that the fact that only 1 out of 5 gay characters in Bioware games have this story is important.  If it became the go-to gay story, it would be disappointing.  But having it show up once is not a problem at all.  Juhani?  She has an implied female lover, but her sexuality doesn't play a role in her story.  Steve?  He lost his husband, but his sexuality doesn't play a role in his story.  Samantha?  She has a crush on EDI but her sexuality doesn't play a role in her story.  Sera?  Her sexuality is barely mentioned.  I'm not seeing a problem with having one gay character in the history of a company's games that speaks to a common experience for gay people. 

 

Is it a common story?  Yeah, it is.  Does that mean that it should never be told again?  Absolutely not.  Especially since it's something that gay people deal with all the time still.  The fact that people can relate to it is what makes it a compelling story.  Maybe not for you, but certainly for others.  Look, I think that stories that play with themes of religion and faith are played out, but I recognize that it's probably because I don't relate to them.  I don't think there's a problem with them being included, even if they were to heavily favor one perspective. 

 

The reason why it bothers me so much is that with Thedas they have a world and cultures with very unique and interesting views on sexuality. Not only does it stand out among games in this respect, but among media in general. Few settings really explore how sexuality is viewed by different countries or the general populace, and when they do it is more often than not simply a reflection of past/current views on sexuality in real life.

 

This is why it's so disappointing that the story we get with Dorian is not only so run of the mill, but one that could be told in any series, in any universe. It doesn't utilize the unique setting and culture nearly enough, repeating what we have seen before in other media countless times rather than using the unusual culture of Thedas to give us a story we haven't seen before in any medium.

 

Bioware are really good at exploring real life issues in Dragon Age with a unique twist, so it's upsetting to see such potential wasted. I don't feel that Dorians personal quest gave me any new perspective or insight into sexuality or how it is viewed by different cultures, and neither do I feel like it taught me anything new or interesting about the setting. It just felt like one large missed oppourtunity.

[daveliam]

The reason why it bothers me so much is that with Thedas they have a world and cultures with very unique and interesting views on sexuality. Not only does it stand out among games in this respect, but among media in general. Few settings really explore how sexuality is viewed by different countries or the general populace, and when they do it is more often than not simply a reflection of past/current views on sexuality in real life.

 

This is why it's so disappointing that the story we get with Dorian is not only so run of the mill, but one that could be told in any series, in any universe. It doesn't utilize the unique setting and culture nearly enough, repeating what we have seen before in other media countless times rather than using the unusual culture of Thedas to give us a story we haven't seen before in any medium.

 

Bioware are really good at exploring real life issues in Dragon Age with a unique twist, so it's upsetting to see such potential wasted. I don't feel that Dorians personal quest gave me any new perspective or insight into sexuality or how it is viewed by different cultures, and neither do I feel like it taught me anything new or interesting about the setting. It just felt like one large missed oppourtunity.

 

I agree that the story is derivative of other gay 'my parent don't accept me' stories.  But I do see a few twists on that story.  First, It's the combination of the 'unaccepting parents of a gay character' and the 'bucking against an arranged marriage' stories.  You see both of them in abundance, but not often together, especially in mainstream media.  Also, it didn't go in the usual "make up and all's right in the world" direction that many Bioware stories do.  It ended ambiguously.  Did they reconcile?  Will it last?  It's all up in the air.  I like that ambiguity.  Plus, it was a really well written story.  I totally relate to this (even though it's not reflective of my personal story) and see how Gaider has created a situation where Dorian is a more complex character because of his disconnect with his family.

 

Did it add in new knowledge on Tevinter?  Not really.  It gives us a concrete example of how far a Magister will go to ensure the continuation of his legacy.  But otherwise, not really.  Did it add in new knowledge on sexuality?  Again, not really.  It gives us an example of a situation where non-hetero sexuality is an issue.  But otherwise, not really.  But, then again, did most of the other characters really add that much either?  What new knowledge/lore was added by Cullen in his romance content?  Blackwall?  Sera?  Not much. 

 

Again, I don't think that this is the most compelling story in the game.  And I'd certainly not like to see this theme played out with upcoming gay characters as well.  But I don't see the issue with playing with a common trope in a medium where that trope is underrepresented.  As long as it doesn't become their go-to gay story (which it won't, given that there have been five other gay/lesbian characters who haven't had stereotypical stories about their sexuality), I'm fine with it. 

[Ianamus]

I agree that the story is derivative of other gay 'my parent don't accept me' stories.  But I do see a few twists on that story.  First, It's the combination of the 'unaccepting parents of a gay character' and the 'bucking against an arranged marriage' stories.  You see both of them in abundance, but not often together, especially in mainstream media.  Also, it didn't go in the usual "make up and all's right in the world" direction that many Bioware stories do.  It ended ambiguously.  Did they reconcile?  Will it last?  It's all up in the air.  I like that ambiguity.  Plus, it was a really well written story.  I totally relate to this (even though it's not reflective of my personal story) and see how Gaider has created a situation where Dorian is a more complex character because of his disconnect with his family.

 

Did it add in new knowledge on Tevinter?  Not really.  It gives us a concrete example of how far a Magister will go to ensure the continuation of his legacy.  But otherwise, not really.  Did it add in new knowledge on sexuality?  Again, not really.  It gives us an example of a situation where non-hetero sexuality is an issue.  But otherwise, not really.  But, then again, did most of the other characters really add that much either?  What new knowledge/lore was added by Cullen in his romance content?  Blackwall?  Sera?  Not much. 

 

Again, I don't think that this is the most compelling story in the game.  And I'd certainly not like to see this theme played out with upcoming gay characters as well.  But I don't see the issue with playing with a common trope in a medium where that trope is underrepresented.  As long as it doesn't become their go-to gay story (which it won't, given that there have been five other gay/lesbian characters who haven't had stereotypical stories about their sexuality), I'm fine with it. 

 

There are twists that make it a bit different from other similar stories, but these are not unique to the setting. You could have the combination of 'unaccepting parents of a gay character' and 'bucking against an arranged marriage' in any other series, any other time period and any other character. It doesn't utilize the unique setting to tell a story that we couldn't see anywhere else or with anyone else.

 

Whether or not this is a problem depends entirely on the person, obviously, but for me it's an issue beause I'm a storng advocate of seeing new and interesting stories involving gay or bisexual characters and same gender relationships. Ones that really make me think and provide a new and interesting perspective. Thedas gives us numerous cultures in a fantasy setting where sexuality is explored quite thoroughly, and there is some really interesting stuff there. Personally, I really like the angle that homsexual relationships in Tevinter are accepted with slaves as side affairs but not with other nobles- as this combines issues of the morality of slavery with issues of sexuality, and would have been a really interesting angle to persue.

 

A good example of this done right, and by the same writer, is Cassandra crisis of faith arc. Crices of faith are another story type done to death, but with the revelations that the seekers are made tranquil and touched by a spirit of faith, and the conversations with Jusitnia, a prominent religous figure who Cassandra look up to in the fade, and the debate over what her/ the spirits nature was... It was a very unique and compelling look at a crisis of faith story that took advantage of elements unique to the setting like the rite of tranquility, spirits of faith, and the ambiguity of the fade. It felt like a story I wouldn't be able to see anywhere else, and taught me a lot about spirits and the seekers of truth in the process. We also got to shape our characters through their responses, as they can have many different opinions on what Justinia could be and could disagree with Cassandra, whereas all Inquisitors are forced to take Dorians side and be angry at his father, proving little room for growth.

 

Compared to that Dorians personal quest is completely underwhelming. And I think that part of that is that it put too much focus in telling a standrad 'unaccepting parents of a gay character' story that would resonate with people who had similar issues in real life, rather than exploring new and interesting ideas. I have no objections to a characters sexuality being a large part of there story; in fact, I would love to see it done well. But the focus there is on "done well". If Dorians quest could have been as involved in the culture and lore of the game as Cassandra's while still involving his sexuality to a large extent and telling a moral of acceptace then I would have been all aboard, but what we got felt completely generic.

[daveliam]

A good example of this done right, and by the same writer, is Cassandra crisis of faith arc. Crices of faith are another story done to death, but with the revelations that the seekers are made tranquil and touched by a spirit of faith, and the conversations with Jusitnia, a prominent religous figure who Cassandra look up to in the fade, and the debate over what her nature was... It was a very unique and compelling look at a crisis of faith story that took advantage of elements unique to the setting like tranquility, the ambiguity of the fade and spirits. It felt like a story I wouldn't be able to see anywhere else, and taught me a lot about spirits and the seekers of truth in the process.

 

 

And I found this aspect of Cassandra's story to be the weakest part.  I could not any less about her crisis of faith.  That's boring and cliche to me.  I found her self-doubt (around founding the Inquisition; around the legitimacy of the Seekers' purpose; around her own leadership) and her slowly removing her guard to reveal herself to the Inquisitor to be much more compelling.  Frankly, after the first time, I skip through all of the faith based content because I'm just not interested in it.  But I can admit that it's still well-written since it speaks to many people (just not me). 

[Hazegurl]

I'm actually of the opinion that half the side quests should have been cut for more companion and character driven content. What do we know of Cory that we didn't in DA2? Even the revelation that he can live by passing through Blighted creatures wasn't anything entirely new, just confirmed.  Are the IQ's family even worried about them enough to check up on them? Are they in any danger? What does Viv's three second scene of giving her old lover a potion have to do with knowing her as a person? I even gave her the common heart to see if I get anything new from her. Aside from her admitting that she hates my IQ I didn't really feel anything about it. 

 

I do agree that more could have been done with Dorian's quest but right now I can only think of something even more cliche like his father joining the Venatori. lol!  Perhaps it would have been good to learn more about the three Venatori groups he wanted to kill. I do admit that for them to turn out to be random Venatori mooks among many to off in game was disappointing.

[Siha]

I know, I am a few pages late with this post, forgive me. I still want to pick this topic up again: the conversation options.
Okay, this is an argument I accept. Basically, there *should have been* the option to agree with the father, turn away from Dorian in disgust or maybe kick him out of your party because you are an intolerant turd. (Requires a follow-up quest to also kick out Sera and, possibly, all gender-independent LIs (Josie, IB etc.), but oh well.) In many situations the player can make such choices, even happily killing everyone on his way through Thedas.

Yes, player choice is limited here. And, yes, this restricts us in a way that ist arguable. Says my head.
But then again, this is not democracy, this is a game. Made by a particular group of people who may decide freely what they want to allow and what not. What sort of audience they wish to reach and what sort of audience they happily live without. And my gut feeling is that they should limit options here. Some things just should not be encouraged. Discrimination (of whatever kind) should not be encouraged, ever, not even in a game. There are a lot of people who can handle this responsibly and whose opinions are not influenced by games. I arrogantly count myself (and probably all of you) among them. But that is not true for everybody. And I just do not want anyone to feel assured in whatever racial/sexual/religious/etc. hatred he harbors when playing a game. I do not want the option to agree about "being gay is awful", "your religion is wrong", "your race is second class" and so on. Simply put: no option I am given should violate human dignity. I am not a religious person and I do want to be able to be agnostic or atheistic. But I should not be allowed to imply that somebody with another belief is "wrong". Because *that* is wrong.

Yes, now one can argue about pushing Cullen towards drugs or killing NPCs. Killing anything at all, for that matter. But I still think there's levels, even if I cannot define them. Doing or not doing drugs is not about human dignity, at least not nearly as close as discriminating an individual for the way of life s/he chooses (as long as this way does not harm anybody else). And killing is rather difficult to rule out in a game. However, I cannot argue well why I consider some choices to be alright while I despise others. I suppose it is all about discrimination, really.

I am sorry for ranting.

[Ianamus]

As for the above: The lack of choice in Dorians personal quest is another major issue I have with it. I'm not saying that I really wanted an option to agree with the father and brainwash Dorian into marrying and having babies, but I wanted some sort of input. What if my character is a Dalish who struggled in their clan because of their sexuality as well? Or wants to make a comment about how they can't understand his fathers intolerant attitude. Even if they wanted to say that they don't like it, but think Dorians father went too far.

 

Cassandra's crisis of faith storyline gave us numerous chances to explore our characters faith and view on different religions, but Dorians gives us next to no options to discuss our chacters sexuality or opinions on sexuality. Besides one option for male characters to say that they have had sex with men (which -really annoyingly- is a flirt option) and that Dorian brushes off almost immediately- so much for any empathising here!

 

I'm not sure if female protagonists who are attracted to women get any say at all.

[airbaboons]

Theodoric, if you lack the capacity to see this as being more than about Dorian being gay, then I feel for you, son. Yes, that's the focus of the dialogue in the quest, but not the entirety of why Dorian left. If you and others can't fill in the pieces and see all of Dorian's character and what makes him Dorian, then you lack an ability to read between the lines and put together collective bits of dialogue. Like what? How can you not see it's not just about that? If your father tries to change you BECAUSE HE WANTS AN HEIR TO HIS "THRONE", it becomes about you being gay. He was trying to change THAT because he thought then Dorian might play along. But no, Dorian defies much more than "being gay is unacceptable". He fights against SO MUCH MORE than his sexuality being looked down upon if displayed in public. Plain and simple, it is not just about orientation. It's not. So venomous on this board, dang.

[airbaboons]

But I do agree there should've been more discussion dialogue to learn more about Dorian in that quest. But each companion personal quest is pretty much like his. Sera was taught to hate. Cassandra was lied to about her order. Blah blah short and sweet, but definitely revealing and we're able to connect more to the character.