227 réponses à ce sujet

[hong]

... because they're not. Mostly.

The term "fetch quest" is kinda problematic in itself, because it's one of those phrases that means whatever you want it to mean, as long as it's derogatory: like "rollplaying" or "dumbed down". But for the purposes of this post, I'll assume that when people talk about a fetch quest, they mean a simple task, obtained from an NPC of no import, that involves no meaningful interaction with the game world. So you talk to a guy in town who asks you to find 10 bear pelts, which you obtain by killing bears one after another, and then you bring them back to him.

Now most CRPGs, including DAI, are power fantasies. You kill hordes of bad guys and accumulate huge wealth on the way to saving the world. However, the guy in town doesn't care about any of that. He just wants those bear pelts, and as far as he's concerned you're no different to anyone else he sees. This creates a disconnect between what the game sets you up to be, and how you're actually treated.

The nice thing is that DAI fetch quests, for the most part, do not fit this template. Rather than talking to someone to initiate them, they're acquired automatically by entering an area, or reading some lore, or finding an item on the ground. You never talk to anyone, and hence there is no dissonant moment when the high-and-mighty Inquisitor gets treated as a random nobody. There are exceptions, but they're few in number.

So, what are these quests then? I see them as basically act as a way to draw you into exploring the map: uncovering the blank areas, looking for ways to get to the next ridge, and so on. The standard quests like rifts, shards and astrariums are intended for this, but most of the other quests can be approached in the same way. They are also puzzles: how do you get to that annoying shard up on the hill, or find the landmark that doesn't show? Figuring out the paths to these quest objects was something that gave me a surprising amount of satisfaction; no doubt because I was focused on the process rather than the goal. If I'd taken a traditional OCD/completionist approach focused on efficiency and mechanically crossing off each quest in the journal, I'd probably have become frustrated and given up before long.

Of course, this introduces its own dissonance, in that the high-and-mighty Inquisitor is running off into the countryside for no good reason. But I can live with this; it's a decision I've made on my own rather than something the game world imposes on me. And hey, what's the point of having ultimate power if you can't indulge yourself?

I'm also excluding the more substantial quests from the above: things like the helping the refugees in the Emerald Graves, or the townsfolk in the Emprise, for example. I doubt those would fit any reasonable person's conception of a fetch quest.

[moxiegraphix]

A lot of the ones I notced where they ask they are truly asking for help. "Can you please?" Not demanding help, which makes a difference. Also, they're optional. They're great for building power and influence though, especially early in the game when nobody knows who the hell you are really. I thought of it as building good will. And I knew I could do them or not.

 

Now resource gathering ... Meh.

[Stelae]

I read a review that pointed out that part of the larger fantasy of games like this is that no matter how late the hour, or dire the situation, you can still find time to do the small, kind things which come to define your character.  IRL, I might be in too much of a rush, but in the game, the action waits just long enough that I can be my better self.

 

So, yes, I'll go put some flowers on your wife's grave, and sure, I'll find Druffy for you.  It's not a bug, it's a feature.

 

ETA:  OP, I love your avatar.  It's rare to see so fine a depiction of the Kirkwall Kangaroo!

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I have no problem with them playing any race except human. A human would be the most familiar with the lands and so, not have the desire to explore as much. Any other race is curious and wants to elarn about the lad he is trying to save from destruction, exploring and doing small things for the people are a good way to get to know both the ladn and the people in it.

[SkyKing]

Ignorance is bliss OP.  The reality is that the 80% of the game with those fetch quests you mentioned to bring you to areas of the map, 80% unused is because the game was in reality 20% developed.  Perhaps a lot more based on the crestwood demo footage that was all cut.  But those quests are put there because if they weren't, then those parts of the map would be completely pointless. To me they still are, those fetch quests are in reality a marker or flag that says, "Unfinished game you paid full price for, if you are luckly you'll get to pay more money to unlock what this area was meant to have been about". 

[Joseph Warrick]

The fetch quests and resources are there to make you explore the area, because by exploring the area you will find... what? More resources and quests? What is there apart from that?

 

Swtor had a better way to make you go all over the map imo: each planet had a planet-specific storyline.

[hong]

The fetch quests and resources are there to make you explore the area, because by exploring the area you will find... what? More resources and quests? What is there apart from that?

 
What is there in any recreational pursuit?

Swtor had a better way to make you go all over the map imo: each planet had a planet-specific storyline.

Things could certainly be better, sure; what I'm saying is that these so-called fetch quests weren't as boring and frustrating as people make them out to be.

[hong]

I read a review that pointed out that part of the larger fantasy of games like this is that no matter how late the hour, or dire the situation, you can still find time to do the small, kind things which come to define your character.  IRL, I might be in too much of a rush, but in the game, the action waits just long enough that I can be my better self.
 
So, yes, I'll go put some flowers on your wife's grave, and sure, I'll find Druffy for you.  It's not a bug, it's a feature.

You know, that's a good point. Not every quest has to be a huge multi-layered chain of events. Having stuff to do on the side is nice as well. Now you can argue about the relative proportions of huge chains and small fillers, but that's something else entirely.
 
 

I have no problem with them playing any race except human. A human would be the most familiar with the lands and so, not have the desire to explore as much. Any other race is curious and wants to elarn about the lad he is trying to save from destruction, exploring and doing small things for the people are a good way to get to know both the ladn and the people in it.

I don't think humans have an issue either. The human Inquisitor is from Ostwick, which is quite a distance from where the action takes place.

[Joseph Warrick]

What is there in any recreational pursuit?

A story! An adventure you tell friends and family when you go back home.

[hong]

A story! An adventure you tell friends and family when you go back home.

Let me tell you about people who say "let me tell you about...".

[moxiegraphix]

I have no problem with them playing any race except human. A human would be the most familiar with the lands and so, not have the desire to explore as much. Any other race is curious and wants to elarn about the lad he is trying to save from destruction, exploring and doing small things for the people are a good way to get to know both the ladn and the people in it.

 

Not necessarily. None of the human characters in this game is from either Ferelden or Orlais. They come from the Free Marches. In DA2, Hawke was not native to the area the game was in. In DA:O  it could be argued the human noble might have traveled more but in this game in particular we have little concept of time and distance and they may have traveled to some of the bigger cities but they certainly wouldn't be familiar with Orzammar or the forest where the Dalish lived. Your generalization about humans is kind of weird, though. How are they any less curious than other races?

[robertthebard]

Not necessarily. None of the human characters in this game is from either Ferelden or Orlais. They come from the Free Marches. In DA2, Hawke was not native to the area the game was in. In DA:O  it could be argued the human noble might have traveled more but in this game in particular we have little concept of time and distance and they may have traveled to some of the bigger cities but they certainly wouldn't be familiar with Orzammar or the forest where the Dalish lived. Your generalization about humans is kind of weird, though. How are they any less curious than other races?

Maybe he thinks they have a hive mind, so that if one knows, everyone knows. I'm not sure how he'd explain plot points from the human people working with/for Cory, but that's the only thing I can come up with to explain it.

[Nimlowyn]

An excellent post. I've been thinking about the quests as more like "the journey" rather than "the destination", and so I've enjoyed it more. Still trying to come to terms with the "why am I out here again" thing but I'll figure it out.

[Nefla]

 Things could certainly be better, sure; what I'm saying is that these so-called fetch quests weren't as boring and frustrating as people make them out to be.

They're not boring for you, and I'm envious of you for that. They ARE an extreme chore to me and not fun in the slightest. All that wasted space that could have contained at least some interesting quests with choices, cutscenes, and branching dialogue like every BioWare game I've played in the past has had (I've played KotOR and newer). What's worse is that you're forced to do a ton of them if you want to beat the game.

[Melyanna]

They're not boring for you, and I'm envious of you for that. They ARE an extreme chore to me and not fun in the slightest. All that wasted space that could have contained at least some interesting quests with choices, cutscenes, and branching dialogue like every BioWare game I've played in the past has had (I've played KotOR and newer). What's worse is that you're forced to do a ton of them if you want to beat the game.

 

Is that true?
You can easily ignore them and earn XP and power by doing something else, I think?

 

(I wouldn't know, because I actually agree with OP so I never really tried to beat the game while ignoring the small side quests...)

[In Exile]

They're not boring for you, and I'm envious of you for that. They ARE an extreme chore to me and not fun in the slightest. All that wasted space that could have contained at least some interesting quests with choices, cutscenes, and branching dialogue like every BioWare game I've played in the past has had (I've played KotOR and newer). What's worse is that you're forced to do a ton of them if you want to beat the game.

 

You should play the BG games. BG1 in particular. DA:O follows KoTOR, but DA:I follows Bioware's older games. And the design isn't really all that great. It hasn't aged well; people just look to it for nostalgia. I personally am OK with it, but that's for very atypical reasons. 

[hong]

What's worse is that you're forced to do a ton of them if you want to beat the game.

lolno

[hong]

You start of your post by saying they're mostly not fetchquests, then argue that they're there to drive exploration - which is it?

I am saying that these minimalist quests, whatever you want to call them, serve to incentivise exploration and are not deserving of a label that denigrates more than it illuminates.

If they drive exploration, why is it only well done in one area? Simply doing something isn't enough, you have to do it well. You don't have to have shards, landmarks, rifts, AND npc given sidequests to "drive exploration". The Hissing Wastes is proof of that, it's literally the only area in the game where a fetchquest drives exploration in a non intrusive way.

The Hissing Wastes is actually an area that feels empty and rather monotonous, precisely because it lacks the plethora of quest markers that other areas have. In other words, because it doesn't have these so-called fetch quests to gamify the process of uncovering the map.

Every quest can be reduced to being a fetchquest when stripped down, just like a sandwich is just stuff between two slices of bread, but a sandwich with only butter in it and a sandwich with lots of ingredients are two very different experiences, even if, superficially, they are the same thing.

Well, that's the thing. People can prefer different food metaphors. You might like sandwiches, but I might like ice cream. It's not that sandwiches are inferior to ice cream, but each metaphor is good in its own way.

[panamakira]

See fetch quests are not too bad for the first playthrough but when I want to replay the game and make different choices, the only way to accumulate power is to do these annoying random quests that add nothing to the story, just so I can gather enough power to move the story along.

 

Hinderlands is so painful because of this!

[Vilegrim]

You should play the BG games. BG1 in particular. DA:O follows KoTOR, but DA:I follows Bioware's older games. And the design isn't really all that great. It hasn't aged well; people just look to it for nostalgia. I personally am OK with it, but that's for very atypical reasons. 

 

 

 

Since I still play it I think they have aged ok (And I prefer them to DA2 and DA:I)

[Precursor Meta]

I thought the sidequest were alright. Although, I'd still like some insight on why lord Woolsey has a rage demon inside him...

[hong]

1) I'm aware of what you're saying, and my response was that the incentive to explore wasn't done well enough because of the absurd amount of things that are supposed to give that incentive, which are also of a very low quality

Clearly it was done well enough for many people, whatever arbitrary standards of "quality" you wish to apply.

2) Whether it's empty or monotonous is irrelevant,

It is entirely relevant. The ultimate purpose of game design is to produce something that is fun to play. If that objective is not met, then the design, regardless of what "quality" it has, is unsuccessful.

it's an area where a sidequest actually drives exploration, and that sidequest is one that tells a story better than most of the fetchquests in the game, and also gives good rewards (loot).

Nobody said the quest in question (ha) wasn't good. However, the point remains that the Wastes is still rather empty and tedious to traverse, and could have used more so-called fetch quests.

3) This isn't about what you prefer,

Of course it's about what I prefer. And more than a few other people, it seems.

it's about whether or not the sidequest design is bad, which it is.

Nonsense.

You can enjoy something that is of a low quality, enjoying something does not mean it was well designed.

But it can mean it was designed well enough for many players to enjoy, relegating such aesthetic concerns to a secondary place.

It seems that people think this is a matter of taste - people aren't telling you you're not allowed to like them, nor was it ever a point of discussion whenever someone criticizes the sidequests, they're criticizing their bad design and the overabundance of them in the game.

Like I said, it's like a food metaphor. Some people will prefer comparing things to ice cream, no matter how much you try to convince them that comparing things to sandwiches is better.

The majority of DA:I's sidequests is literally a sandwich with only butter in it. There is no substance, no things to spice it up. You may like it yourself, but can you honestly claim it's good design?

I don't really care whether it's "good design", whether you mean that by reference to sandwiches or ice cream. The point is that it works.

[papercut_ninja]

Making you sit and do something you actually don't particularly like doing in between the stuff you like doing...that is pretty much game design theory 101. Problem is that if the balance isn't right, people might actually stop and not bother getting to the stuff they like doing. I think the designers maybe miscalculated how anal people will be about finding everything since most of the sidestuff is optional and you only need to do maybe 10-20% of it to progress the main story. It is actually a good balance if you only do 25-30% of the side quests, and then you can play through it 3-4 times before you've done and seen everything.

[ThelLastTruePatriot]

The fetch quests and resources are there to make you explore the area, because by exploring the area you will find... what? More resources and quests? What is there apart from that?

 

Swtor had a better way to make you go all over the map imo: each planet had a planet-specific storyline.

 Precisely, I don't mind exploring  when there is a chance I will run into something really cool. Games like the fallout series make you want to explore because you can run into all sorts of things, whether it be awesome gear, references to past games,  and other hidden gems. There really isnt a lot to look at in DA:I when you think about it, hell, when you arrive in the hissing wastes for the first time and Harding tells you there is nothing here but...space, it's almost like the game is self aware.  A big desolate area which also happens to be the largest in the game, but it may as well have a sign on it that says "we didn't know what to put here." I like this game, but as a loyal player I can't help but think the game could have been more. I don't wanna beat  the proverbial dead horse but where is my crestwood with all the flaming ships upon the water? and the dynamic battles?

[hong]

1) No, it's not relevant, because we weren't discussing whether the areas are empty due to lack of sidequests, we were discussing your point of sidequest driven exploration. I simply pointed out an actual sidequest that drives exploration, unlike most of the areas in the game.

And I never said that that sidequest was bad. In fact, I never said anything about the Hissing Wastes in the first place. After you brought the area up, I said that it was bad, but that was not because the quest was bad; it was because there were not enough of these quests.
 

Whether or not the Hissing Wastes is empty and monotonous is irrelevant to the topic at hand - it has nothing to do with the sidequest driven exploration. Whether you enjoyed this area is irrelevant, because it was just an example of what proper sidequest driven exploration was like, unlike most of the game, and whether or not you enjoyed the entire area is irrelevant to the point being made.

And the Hissing Wastes as a whole could have used more such quests. Now it would be great if they were all like the tombs, but even if they weren't, they would still be preferable to a big empty map.
 

Trying to move the goalposts won't help you.

Nobody is trying to move the goalposts, except maybe you.
 

2) The point still remains, whether it's empty or not is irrelevant, because it's the only point in the game where sidequests actually drive exploration. The area can be empty and monotonous, it's main sidequest chain is still the main thing that drives exploration, seeing as we weren't discussing the feel of the areas, we were discussing sidequests that drive exploration, and the two are not linked, your point is again irrelevant.

And nobody said anything about that sidequest being bad or not. So your harping on about it is what is irrelevant.
 

3) Lots of people prefer Twilight, still a a bad book. Just because you or a lot of people enjoy something doesn't mean it was well designed.

I prefer to compare things to McDonalds. But there's nothing wrong with using Twilight. Just because some people like food metaphors, and others like literary metaphors, doesn't make one or the other objectively better.
 

4) Nope, that's true. DA:I's sidequest design is objectively bad, save for a handful of quests

Ah yes, "objectively bad". The so-called aesthetic filter by which things are deemed worthy of elevation to a superior plane.
 

5) Enjoyment and quality are not necessarily linked. Just because you enjoy something, that does not make it well designed. There are numerous examples of this, from video games, to books, and movies.

Perhaps this should drive you reexamine the metrics by which you consider something "[objectively] well designed", or the importance you place on it.
 

6) And like I said, this discussion isn't about enjoyment, it's about the quality of the quests, and since enjoyment does not necessarily mean it's quality, your point is irrelevant.

No, it really is about enjoyment. It is true that to obtain such enjoyment, it is necessary to reinterpret the quests from the context in which they are normally embedded. But that is often the case.

 

Comparing ice scream to sandwiches is apples and oranges - I was simply illustrating that you can enjoy a simplistic and low quality sandwich, one which has only butter in it, but that doesn't make it a good sandwich. The only argument you have is "I enjoyed/didn't mind these sidequests" which in no way illustrates that the sidequest design wasn't bad.

But some food metaphors are better than others. See, if you had said you liked ice cream, then you wouldn't have to resort to such messy comparisons as sandwiches. And it does illustrate that these quests can be fun, whether or not one considers them "objectively bad".