227 réponses à ce sujet

[hong]

Precisely, I don't mind exploring  when there is a chance I will run into something really cool. Games like the fallout series make you want to explore because you can run into all sorts of things, whether it be awesome gear, references to past games,  and other hidden gems.

There are things which are a bit like that in DAI: the mosaic pieces and bottles come to mind. But mostly, the exploration in DAI is more explicit. It puts up big quest markers all over the place, so you know there is something there. Then it becomes a problem of figuring out how to get to that quest marker.
 

There really isnt a lot to look at in DA:I when you think about it, hell, when you arrive in the hissing wastes for the first time and Harding tells you there is nothing here but...space, it's almost like the game is self aware.  A big desolate area which also happens to be the largest in the game, but it may as well have a sign on it that says "we didn't know what to put here."

I'm pretty sure that was a deliberate design decision, rather than one born of expedience. It emphasises that the Wastes are just that: a wasteland. Unfortunately the side-effect is that it also quickly becomes rather boring, but wastelands tend to be like that.

[MaxQuartiroli]

So, what are these quests then? I see them as basically act as a way to draw you into exploring the map: uncovering the blank areas, looking for ways to get to the next ridge, and so on. The standard quests like rifts, shards and astrariums are intended for this,

 

Agreed. I also believe that shards, astarium and rifts are dislocated in a way that allows you to explore the whole map and discover all its secrets while you are looking for them.

[Melca36]

See fetch quests are not too bad for the first playthrough but when I want to replay the game and make different choices, the only way to accumulate power is to do these annoying random quests that add nothing to the story, just so I can gather enough power to move the story along.

 

Hinderlands is so painful because of this!

 

The DA2 Fetch quests added nothing to the story.   80% of the Fetch quests in Origins added NOTHING to the story.  The majority of complaining is due to people being lazy. You are not forced to finish the Hinterlands first...you can go to other areas.

[Melca36]

They're not boring for you, and I'm envious of you for that. They ARE an extreme chore to me and not fun in the slightest. All that wasted space that could have contained at least some interesting quests with choices, cutscenes, and branching dialogue like every BioWare game I've played in the past has had (I've played KotOR and newer). What's worse is that you're forced to do a ton of them if you want to beat the game.

\

 

Actually you're not forced to do them...

 

I have one playthrough where I only did 25% of them and was able to complete/beat the game. 

[Essorance]

I'm pretty sure that was a deliberate design decision. It emphasises that the Wastes are just that: a wasteland. Unfortunately the side-effect is that it also quickly becomes rather boring, but wastelands tend to be like that.

 

ofc it was a design decision (One of the only good ones BW made this game); It's a fkn desert. Tells me alot about what kind of 'games' you enjoy that you'd want a desert in a game where every 5 steps you'd have an NPC ask you to:

• Find his sheep
• Find her purse
• Find his 5 special coins
• find her 6 specific grains of sand
• Kill 7 sand bugs that have been terrorizing the locals
• etc

 

The fetch quests in this game are plain bad, because this is not an MMO where a static world needs to exist. Dynamics can be put into place; Oh I just got all those blankets and food you were asking for, for the hungry and cold locals? Ok, well here they are... and nothing happens. No resolution. Just 'cheers m8'. It causes such a disconnect it gets to the point where you don't want to do another one because you ALREADY know the outcome. Bit of dialogue, now bugger off.

 

Not that I should expect much, I spoke to Morrigan after I beat corphypants and she told me to prepare myself for the final battle.... errr luv you were there, you turned into a dragon and we beat him together... sigh.

[Melca36]

ofc it was a design decision (One of the only good ones BW made this game); It's a fkn desert. Tells me alot about what kind of 'games' you enjoy that you'd want a desert in a game where every 5 steps you'd have an NPC ask you to:

• Find his sheep
• Find her purse
• Find his 5 special coins
• find her 6 specific grains of sand
• Kill 7 sand bugs that have been terrorizing the locals
• etc

 

The fetch quests in this game are plain bad, because this is not an MMO where a static world needs to exist. Dynamics can be put into place; Oh I just got all those blankets and food you were asking for, for the hungry and cold locals? Ok, well here they are... and nothing happens. No resolution. Just 'cheers m8'. It causes such a disconnect it gets to the point where you don't want to do another one because you ALREADY know the outcome. Bit of dialogue, now bugger off.

 

Not that I should expect much, I spoke to Morrigan after I beat corphypants and she told me to prepare myself for the final battle.... errr luv you were there, you turned into a dragon and we beat him together... sigh.

 

 

And what did you think of the DA2 Fetch quests where you basically delivered items to people? 

[Althix]

... because they're not. Mostly.

i see the problem not in the fetch quests themselfs, but rather in the fact that at least 80% of the game full with non story related missions.

I mentioned before that Far Cry 3/4 is a prime example of that, when relics, letters, outposts are just filler missions, to make game look more alive and full. But thing is - they are not making it more alive or full. Especially not after first 3-4 outposts. 

Same situation with DAI, when world of this game is huge,but dead. And it's dead because things you do there have no value. And such approach is really, really immersion-breaking.

 

As example - clearing bandits at Night on the streets of Kirkwal in DA2 was a grindy enough process, but it is more or less brief. In DAI we have the most part of the game that consists of more tedious grind.

 

If not for these side quests of DAI, i honestly i would't care to explore DAI world. Because exploration is not the reason why i buy BW games. The story and the plot are the reasons.

I hope EA/BW would understand this simple truth.

[Melca36]

They were as bad? DA:O also had these shitty fetchquests too. DA:I just has so much more. No one is denying the DA games never had sidequests - a lot of people dislike DA:I because it just has so much.

 

And as I stated before...you are not required to do them all. I completed a playthrough where I did 25% of them. 

 

If a person feels forced to do them...than thats on them and the developers should NOT be held accountable.

[panamakira]

The DA2 Fetch quests added nothing to the story.   80% of the Fetch quests in Origins added NOTHING to the story.  The majority of complaining is due to people being lazy. You are not forced to finish the Hinterlands first...you can go to other areas.

People have argued otherwise multiple times around here including this thread so I won't repeat the same thing over. However, when in my post did I compare DA:I to DA:O or DA2? I have no idea where you're getting the idea that my original post was about comparing the three games and their fetch quests.

 

My complaint was mainly about DA:I having tedious side quests that add nothing to the story, making it a chore instead of adding variation, especially after multiple playthroughs. I won't deny Origins and DA2 suffered a similar injustice but it seems more obvious in DA:I that to fill up the empty space they added all these random little things to gather up power.

 

Also, you are stuck in the Hinderlands until you gather enough power to explore other areas. Believe me, I have never stayed there too long, just enough to get power and move on but even then those side missions are ridiculously tedious. Congratulation on you having a blast collecting shards, bottles, ram meat and bear pelts!!! While most RPGs have these, I think BW pushed it on this one.

 

I'm sorry about your lack of reading comprehension. 

[Melca36]

i see the problem not in the fetch quests themselfs, but rather in the fact that at least 80% of the game full with non story related missions.

I mentioned before that Far Cry 3/4 is a prime example of that, when relics, letters, outposts are just filler missions, to make game look more alive and full. But thing is - they are not making it more alive or full. Especially not after first 3-4 outposts. 

Same situation with DAI, when world of this game is huge,but dead. And it's dead because things you do there have no value. And such approach is really, really immersion-breaking.

 

As example - clearing bandits at Night on the streets of Kirkwal in DA2 was a grindy enough process, but it is more or less brief. In DAI we have the most part of the game that consists of more tedious grind.

 

If not for these side quests of DAI, i honestly i would't care to explore DAI world. Because exploration is not the reason why i buy BW games. The story and the plot are the reasons.

I hope EA/BW would understand this simple truth.

 

 

Yes the story is important but some of us DO NOT want a linear game. Case in point...the starting point in DA2. Its horrible.

 

How was I supposed to believe that was around Lothering?   It was linear and ruined the immersion for me.   

 

Oh and you can still explore the area while only doing 25% of the fetch quests

[ThreeF]

There are many things to like about these "fetch quest", imo, as long as you have the mindset for it. I really liked that:

 

1)each area has it's particular story (mini-main quest) and it is tied to the main story

2)when you collect the wine bottles you get to actually see them in Skyhold

3)picking up the shards and discovering landmarks in some cases involve the little puzzle solving of how to actually get there.

4)shards give a purpose to the exploration

5)i haven't finish a mosaic yet but I'm very curious to hear what the dwarf has to say about them

 

And it's not only that, whoever placed these things around the map knew what they were doing. There was one particular instance that got me very impressed.  Varric's lyrium quest led me to the temple where the time had stopped, I would probably not end up there if it was not for this quest, because I really dislike mechanically cleaning the map, takes out all the fun from me. Shards also typically lead to very interesting places.

[Melca36]

Sure thing you aren't, the filler content is also the vast majority of the entire game. So I can only enjoy the game if I avoid the majority of the content? This is good game design?

 

Bioware didn't have to add them all in the game either, yet they did. Saying "you don't have to do them" does not erase the reality of the situation - the majority of the content in this game consists of fetchquests, which are of a really low quality.

 

 

No offense, it sounds like you're lazy. It does not take long to them. Alot of us enjoy doing them. Its also fun to craft.

 

I don't want things easily handed to me.  For $70 I want my moneys worth and I got it with Inquisition.   DA2 cost me $60 when it came out and as good as the story was....It did NOT have $60 worth of content

[hong]

1) And, again, that is irrelevant. For you, the area is monotonous and empty, however it still contains the only sidequest chain in the entire game which actually drives the exploration.

No, it contains the only sidequest chain which is explicitly about driving the exploration. Nothing prevents you from using other quests for the same purpose. Indeed, it's difficult to see what purpose things like shards, astrariums et al have besides driving exploration.

We were not discussing the fullness or atmosphere of areas, we were discussing sidequest driven exploration, the Hissing Wastes do it, that was an example of a part where the game actually drives the player to explore by the means of sidequesting.

No, that is simply an example of a part of the game where there is no ambiguity about exploring.

3) I know they didn't, I was simply pointing out why the majority of the people have problems with the sidequests.

I do not believe that word "majority" means what you think it means.

Even if they are meant to "drive exploration", there's just so many of them and so many of them are of such a low quality. At that point, what they were meant to do does not matter, because people don't have an issue with what it was meant to do, they have an issue with what it does do.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Exploration isn't something that is enjoyable to everyone. There is a limit to how much gamification can polish a turd; if it isn't something that you enjoy doing in the first place, then putting quests around it will only work to a certain extent.
 

4) No, it makes Twilight still be a bad book even though millions of fangirls love it.

And it makes your opinion irrelevant if one wishes to compare things to McDonalds.
 

5) Yep.

We have dismissed this claim.

[hong]

6) In my first post I argued why they are badly designed. Read it again. Most of the sidequests in DA:I have minimal dialogue, no choices to make, minimal story to tell and trivial rewards.

And these are precisely the elements which make the quests easy to turn into vehicles for driving exploration: there is less narrative baggage to shed, and fewer consequences to deal with. Because you are not talking to guys on farms who only want their bear pelts, there is also no dissonance between your purported heroic deeds and your social status ingame. Because how many shards you get doesn't have a critical impact on whether NPC X dies or not, you can get on with searching for them rather than worrying about how it will impact your endgame. Because you only get a relatively minor ingame reward, you are also free not to go looking for shards if you don't find it fun.

They are objectively badly designed, and people find an issue with it because there's just so many of them in the game. All you have for your argument is "people enjoy it so it might not be bad" and "it drives exploration", as if it somehow enhances the quality of the quests.

You are still thinking of quests as merely a vehicle by which to interact with the storyline and/or power gain. Remove this framework and things become somewhat... different.

Now, would you want ALL your quests to be merely "go climb hills to find obscure object Foo"? Of course not. But the point is that quests like this can still be enjoyable.

7) And that context wasn't good enough, nor does it make the quest be any less ****. Saying they're there to drive exploration doesn't make the quests any less bad, nor does it make for a compelling argument of "why everyone that doesn't like the fetchquests is wrong"

Point me to where I said "everyone that doesn't like the fetchquests is wrong".

8) Except it was you who brought comparing ice cream to sandwiches into play, either because you didn't understand the analogy or didn't understand it on purpose to make a point.

Well, food metaphors are all well and good, but there's a limit to how far ice cream comparisons will get you. Sometimes you really need to use sandwiches to make a point.

I'm not arguing about your enjoyment of them, I'm arguing about why people don't like them, even though they are supposed to "drive exploration", as you claimed.

The trick is to use good food metaphors.

[Essorance]

And what did you think of the DA2 Fetch quests where you basically delivered items to people? 

 

Context is important. Quests which further the main story, which is along the lines of go from A to B in order to progress the story is superior to go from A to B to get nothing in particular.

 

Are you referring to side or main quests? If side quests I have the same problem with it. If main quest then no problem.

 

Also, wrt to the exploration point that keeps coming up, I'm a fan of astrarium and shard quests for the purpose of furthering exploration of the beautifully created worlds. It's the ones which have no real value or outcome that didn't need to be in there.

[Melca36]

People have argued otherwise multiple times around here including this thread so I won't repeat the same thing over. However, when in my post did I compare DA:I to DA:O or DA2? I have no idea where you're getting the idea that my original post was about comparing the three games and their fetch quests.

 

My complaint was mainly about DA:I having tedious side quests that add nothing to the story, making it a chore instead of adding variation, especially after multiple playthroughs. I won't deny Origins and DA2 suffered a similar injustice but it seems more obvious in DA:I that to fill up the empty space they added all these random little things to gather up power.

 

Also, you are stuck in the Hinderlands until you gather enough power to explore other areas. Believe me, I have never stayed there too long, just enough to get power and move on but even then those side missions are ridiculously tedious. Congratulation on you having a blast collecting shards, bottles, ram meat and bear pelts!!! While most RPGs have these, I think BW pushed it on this one.

 

I'm sorry about your lack of reading comprehension. 

 

 

Um my reading comprehensiion is perfectly fine.  Sounds like you are just want everything handed to you easily.  As I said before you are NOT required to do them. If you feel the need to...then its on you.  

[Melca36]

I'm lazy? Where am I lazy? I want things handed to me? Please point out where you concluded that from my post. No offense, but it's fairly obvious that your reasoning is pathetic and now you're just moving onto parroting stock phrases in the hope that an argument might appear.

 

Because I see the same complaint.  Its been said time and time again....you do NOT have to complete all of the quests. You can go to other areas beyond the Hinterlands.  

 

These fetch quests are about obtaining power. They are more relevant than finding a sisters remains in darktown or getting 10 garnets in one of the Origins fetch quests.   If you talk to Mother Giselle afterwards....she tells you how you helped those areas.   

[Althix]

Yes the story is important but some of us DO NOT want a linear game. 

here is the thing. each and every BW game is linear. You will travel from A to point B, eventually. And after this point you will find that in this game world you have nothing left to do. Skyrim has the same issue. Far Cry as well.

Hell - even Mount and Blade has it.

 

So please come with another argument.

 

p.s. I just don't think that bad combat system, lack of character development and very sad main story arc is a fair trade for "open-world" exploration feature.

[hong]

Sure thing you aren't, the filler content is also the vast majority of the entire game. So I can only enjoy the game if I avoid the majority of the content? This is good game design?

One of the things I really wished Diablo had was more good character interaction and dialogue. Instead, I'm forced to slog my way through endless hordes of monsters and loot drops just to get to the good stuff. Clearly this is terrible game design.

Bioware didn't have to add them all in the game either, yet they did. You didn't have to respond to my post either, yet you did. Saying "you don't have to do them" does not erase the reality of the situation - the majority of the content in this game consists of fetchquests, which are of a really low quality.

A significant part (not necessarily a majority) of the content in this game can be used to encourage exploring the map. If you do not like exploring, then clearly it's not going to work for you.

[hong]

1) They might be there to drive exploration, but they are still bad,

No, they are good for driving exploration.

which was my point, and driving exploration does not necessarily make them fun to do.

If you don't like exploring, sure. But even people who don't like exploring can get something out of these quests, provided they are not doctrinaire opponents of the activity. Luckily, one rarely finds doctrinaire opponents outside of Internet forums.

2) That part is obvious

And there are other parts of the game which are less explicitly about exploring, but nevertheless can be profitably treated as being such.

3) The majority of the people that criticize the game*

Whoever they may be.
 

4) Again, you still haven't demonstrated how just because the quests are meant to drive exploration, it 1) makes them enjoyable and 2) makes them any less bad

The nice thing is that DAI fetch quests, for the most part, do not fit this template. Rather than talking to someone to initiate them, they're acquired automatically by entering an area, or reading some lore, or finding an item on the ground. You never talk to anyone, and hence there is no dissonant moment when the high-and-mighty Inquisitor gets treated as a random nobody. There are exceptions, but they're few in number.

So, what are these quests then? I see them as basically act as a way to draw you into exploring the map: uncovering the blank areas, looking for ways to get to the next ridge, and so on. The standard quests like rifts, shards and astrariums are intended for this, but most of the other quests can be approached in the same way. They are also puzzles: how do you get to that annoying shard up on the hill, or find the landmark that doesn't show? Figuring out the paths to these quest objects was something that gave me a surprising amount of satisfaction; no doubt because I was focused on the process rather than the goal. If I'd taken a traditional OCD/completionist approach focused on efficiency and mechanically crossing off each quest in the journal, I'd probably have become frustrated and given up before long.

 

5) Too bad the point still stands, just because you enjoy something, that doesn't mean it's good. Point in case: Twilight, a bad book, enjoyed by millions of fangirls. McDonalds has little to do with it, at this point it seems like you're just grasping at straws.

But McDonalds is such a good metaphor. It's enjoyed by millions, plus it involves food. All the best arguments by metaphor involve food.

[hong]

6) Nope

Yes.

7) Yeah, and the point is that just because you enjoy them doesn't mean the design isn't ****. Your first part also makes no sense, it just sounds like you're throwing a couple of buzzwords together.

Feel free to stop replying if you can no longer understand what you're reading.

8) My bad

Indeed.

9) Yeah, this doesn't make sense either.

That is your problem.

10) The trick is also to construct an argument for your point, which you still haven't done.

The trick is to understand the argument I was making, which you still haven't done.

[hong]

They aren't more relevant, either. Mother Giselle tells me how I helped the area? Too bad the area is literally the same regardless of whether or not I did the refugee questline. LOL

You should explore a bit more.

[Eterna]

You arguing semantics over what type of quest they are doesn't change the fat that they're terrible. 

[panamakira]

Um my reading comprehensiion is perfectly fine.  Sounds like you are just want everything handed to you easily.  As I said before you are NOT required to do them. If you feel the need to...then its on you.  

Ugh. Yeah I'm not going to repeat myself. The fact that I want more interesting side quests to you means I want everything handed easily says exactly that. No reading comprehension. If that's all you got out of my posts, I have no further wish discuss anything. 

[hong]

1) Nope, because you haven't demonstrated why it's terrible game design, you just say you don't like it.

Point -->
<-- Head

I demonstrated why they are bad quests - they're lazy, simplistic, and they are more often than not completely identical. And DA:I is swarmed with them. I just demonstrated why they are bad, and why I don't like them. You just said that you don't like them, therefore it must be bad, which is not what I did.

Hang on, I thought we were talking about stuff that was "objectively bad". What does what you like have to do with anything?

 

2) Nah, I like to do stuff that isn't low quality filler, and the majority of the sidequests are still low quality filler, even if they "encourage exploration", as you claim.

That is simply because you are not the type of player who sees exploration as something interesting in its own right. But that's okay. Some people like ice cream metaphors, and others like sandwich metaphors. There's nothing inherently superior about comparing one's tastes to either ice cream or sandwiches, they are simply different.