128 réponses à ce sujet

[Syre297]

I never said that I was refusing to acknbowledge my friends true identity. If you read my post I said that I reference them by their proper pronouns. When I see photos of my friends I see them as a man, and so I address them as it.

 

And if you were even listening to a word I said... It is not down to me to decide a persons gender.. It is the law of science. I'm not a god I am a human

So if a biologically female friend identifies as a man, but has yet to have the surgery, you call this friend by male oriented pronouns?

[SunburnedPenguin]

I never said that I was refusing to acknbowledge my friends true identity. If you read my post I said that I reference them by their proper pronouns. When I see photos of my friends I see them as a man, and so I address them as it.

 

And if you were even listening to a word I said... It is not down to me to decide a persons gender.. It is the law of science. I'm not a god I am a human

 

So if your friend is male to female transgender, you refer to 'her' as 'her/she'? Is that what you are saying? Because that is a complete u-turn from your original post.

 

If you are saying that you use the term that YOU see them as, and not what they have chosen for themselves, then that yes - you are refusing to acknowledge their true identity as they see themselves. Because it is not for you to decide a persons identity, gender, sexuality, name, or anything else that makes up a persons own idendity. Gender is more than genitals, it is the person inside.

 

You cannot talk about laws of science when you clearly don't understand them yourself.

[Syre297]

Not all Christian churches look at transsexuals and hermaphrodites with distaste. 

Oh, certainly not! I am not saying that all Christian institutions are like that. I'm simply saying that it's more prevalent than in many other cultures. Or at least it's more visible. I try not to speak in absolutes. 

[Lord Raijin]

So if a biologically female friend identifies as a man, but has yet to have the surgery, you call this friend by male oriented pronouns?

 

If my eyes sees boobs and hears a womens voice... I will present that person with the proper pronouns.

[Syre297]

If my eyes sees boobs and hears a womens voice... I will present that person with the proper pronouns.

And if this perceived woman happened to be dressed as a man and were to tell you that they prefer to be address as a male? 

[Panda]

Krem is not truly trans cause he doesn't want to go through magic ritual? In land of Thedas where most people are scared about magic?

 

Well there is transgender people IRL who don't want to go through surgeriers or can't go through them. I don't think that doesn't mean they aren't trans. What about those trans people who want surgery but haven't had it yet, do they have to wait for surgery before they can be trans?

[Shechinah]

(to Lord Raijin) What if it is a man who has a not-so-deep voice and is a bit on the heavy side?

[Syre297]

(to Lord Raijin) What if the man has a not-so-deep voice and is a bit on the heavy side?

[phantomrachie]

I never said that I was refusing to acknbowledge my friends true identity. If you read my post I said that I reference them by their proper pronouns. When I see photos of my friends I see them as a man, and so I address them as it.

 

 

Now I'm confused about your position, but maybe that is because you don't even know what it is.

 

In your OP you refereed to Krem as a female even though he makes it very clear that he is a man. Why not refer to him by the pronoun he wants you to like you claim you do for your friends?

 

Is he not worthy of your respect because he doesn't want to go through a procedure that is not possible in Thedas? 

 

Then you claim that it is genitals that define gender, then when it's pointed out to you that that is wrong, you move to DNA and when people ask how surgery chances someones DNA you claim that hormones do, but not only is this not true, there are trans people who take hormones but who don't get surgery.

 

Do you have to do both to be a 'true' trans person in your mind?

 

Perhaps you should take some time to review whats been said in this thread and come back with a fully formed position. 

[SunburnedPenguin]

If my eyes sees boobs and hears a womens voice... I will present that person with the proper pronouns.

 

Do moobs count? Cos I know a rather large man with moobies and a surprisingly high pitched voice that would not appreciate being referred to as a woman.

[Shechinah]

(to Syre297) It is a lovely pair.

 

In addition, what about female bodybuilders? Some don't have prominent breasts but I don't think they consider themselves less of a woman because of that.

[phantomrachie]

(to Syre297) It is a lovely pair.

 

In addition, what about female bodybuilders? Some don't have prominent breasts but I don't think they consider themselves less of a woman because of that.

 

or women with small breasts and deeper voices. If a woman has an A cup,depending on the top she is wearing you may not be able to see her breasts.

 

I'm sure woman like that wouldn't want to be called a man. 

[Battlebloodmage]

As far as freedom of speech goes, call Krem a boy or a girl is up to the individual. It's out of respect for the individual to call them by their preferred gender. Forum is not a good vehicle to change people's minds, so arguing over this is pretty pointless. Sexuality is not an easy subject to understand, especially if you have no exposure to any of them. Some don't believe in bisexual while other don't believe in Transgender. I have my own skeptical about certain sexualities but it's for another topic. Krem himself is not a representation for all Transgender out there. If he says he's Transgender then he's Transgender. People feel free to think otherwise. If he were real. I doubt he'd care. Transgender people have it hard enough without having people judging who they suppose to be.

[Syre297]

As far as freedom of speech goes, call Krem a boy or a girl is up to the individual. It's out of respect for the individual to call them by their preferred gender. Forum is not a good vehicle to change people's minds, so arguing over this is pretty pointless. Sexuality is not an easy subject to understand, especially if you have no exposure to any of them. Some don't believe in bisexual while other don't believe in Transgender. I have my own skeptical about certain sexualities but it's for another topic. Krem himself is not a representation for all Transgender out there. If he says he's Transgender then he's Transgender. People feel free to think otherwise. If he were real. I doubt he'd care. Transgender people have it hard enough without having people judging who they suppose to be.

Well said. 

[Shechinah]

(to Battlebloodmage) S'bout the gist of it really.

 

I've also just remembered I've forgot to finish playing Alpha Sapphire.

[Dubya75]

Bioware should go all Medieval on this subject and do whatever they want, whether it offends people or not. Because it seems no matter what they do as far as sexuality goes in their games, people will ALWAYS be offended regardless.

 

I find it absolutely HILARIOUS how people can get so hung up over sexuality in a goddamn VIDEO GAME!!! Get a life already!

[Lord Raijin]

Now I'm confused about your position, but maybe that is because you don't even know what it is.

 

In your OP you refereed to Krem as a female even though he makes it very clear that he is a man. Why not refer to him by the pronoun he wants you to like you claim you do for your friends?

 

Is he not worthy of your respect because he doesn't want to go through a procedure that is not possible in Thedas? 

 

Then you claim that it is genitals that define gender, then when it's pointed out to you that that is wrong, you move to DNA and when people ask how surgery chances someones DNA you claim that hormones do, but not only is this not true, there are trans people who take hormones but who don't get surgery.

 

Do you have to do both to be a 'true' trans person in your mind?

 

Perhaps you should take some time to review whats been said in this thread and come back with a fully formed position. 

 

I'm sorry if I'm confusing you. I'm not sure how I can clearly explain this.

 

Yes I refereed Krem as a female because she is a female. She has a woman's voice. The only difference is that she shaved the side of her head hair making it more masculine. She looks more butch rather than a guy (Bioware did try hard by giving her a male body with male armor). The fact to the matter is that she can call her self a guy all she wants... but she still has the reproductive organs of a female. She still has her monthly periods, and she can get pregnant at any given time if she decides to have consensual sex with a gender of the opposition. As Krem gets older she will be menopausal.
 

It is psychotic thinking to even believe that genitals doesn't truly define a human being. I was not proven wrong. I just had an emotional disagreement. People have the right to voice their opinions... even if their not logically correct. 

 

People can call themselves trans all they want but that does not make their "preferred" gender legal.

 

http://transgenderla...n-in-california

 

According to California protocols for legally changing your gender status you need a letter signed by a physician saying that you have undergone “clinically appropriate treatment” for gender transition.

 

So yes. In a legal point of view in order to be recognized you need to be receiving an appropriate treatment. Those who do not want to go through the surgeries or any other treatments must still recognize themselves as the gender that their born with with any legal documents or any other medical documentation.

[Little Princess Peach]

this should not matter at all being transgender or a lesbian or gay we are all human beings you have to realise in game logic should not be the same as real life logic, why do people want games to be realistic if you want things to be more real dont play games and stay in the real world and fight these issues, I play games to escape reality not draw reality into them.

 

you are intitled to your opinion yes but bloody nora we are all Humans we share a planet and games should not always have to reflect real life end of story.

[Lord Raijin]

this should not matter at all being transgender or a lesbian or gay we are all human beings you have to realise in game logic should not be the same as real life logic, why do people want games to be realistic if you want things to be more real dont play games and stay in the real world and fight these issues, I play games to escape reality not draw reality into them.

 

you are intitled to your opinion yes but bloody nora we are all Humans we share a planet and games should not always have to reflect real life end of story.

 

I too play video games to escape from reality (I have a highly stressful RL), However Bioware and their writers are trying to westernized dragon age series by bringing real life issues into the game, and that I was forced to called Krem a guy when I had no other option to voice my disapproval. I was forced to accept it as it is, and go on. I thought my choice and decisions matters? Isn't that what they've been bragging about all this time?

 

I play video games to expand my imagination... no matter how bizarre or how offensive it is.

[phantomrachie]

I'm sorry if I'm confusing you. I'm not sure how I can clearly explain this.

 

Yes I refereed Krem as a female because she is a female. She has a woman's voice. The only difference is that she shaved the side of her head hair making it more masculine. She looks more butch rather than a guy (Bioware did try hard by giving her a male body with male armor). The fact to the matter is that she can call her self a guy all she wants... but she still has the reproductive organs of a female. She still has her monthly periods, and she can get pregnant at any given time if she decides to have consensual sex with a gender of the opposition. As Krem gets older she will be menopausal.
 

It is psychotic thinking to even believe that genitals doesn't truly define a human being. I was not proven wrong. I just had an emotional disagreement. People have the right to voice their opinions... even if their not logically correct. 

 

People can call themselves trans all they want but that does not make their "preferred" gender legal.

 

http://transgenderla...n-in-california

 

According to California protocols for legally changing your gender status you need a letter signed by a physician saying that you have undergone “clinically appropriate treatment” for gender transition.

 

So yes. In a legal point of view in order to be recognized you need to be receiving an appropriate treatment. Those who do not want to go through the surgeries or any other treatments must still recognize themselves as the gender that their born with with any legal documents or any other medical documentation.

 

I don't think you can clearly explain your reasoning because it is all over the place.

 

Let's break this down:

 

You called Krem a woman, even though you said that you called your friends by their preferred gender. Reproductive organs do not define a persons gender, as I said before, there are women who don't have vagina's or wombs. They are still women. 

 

Krem lives in a society where gender reassignment surgery or magic doesn't exist, so it is not possible for Krem to do what you want him to do for you to define him as a man.

 

Even if he was able to do that, he would still have an XX chromosome - which you said would make him still a woman.

 

You claim that it is psychotic to believe that genitals don't define a persons gender, yet there are many people with multiple genitalia or who are born without the genitals that you claim define their gender. Your definition of gender excludes those people - whats logical about that?

 

You quote a law from California which is not relevant for a number a reasons

1. California is not the world, in Ireland you can get your gender changed on documents without going through surgery.
2. Laws do not necessarily keep up with modern scientific thinking, it's still illegal to be gay in some counties.
3. Many transsexuals protest laws that require them to have surgery before they can officially change their gender. 

You seem to be confused on many scientific principles and on the most current research on gender.

[Gill Kaiser]

Dude, really, who are you to be making this argument? Whence does the impetus arise?

 

Do you honestly feel so strongly negative about the fact that a fictional character wishes to be referred to as male that you feel the need to tell them and anyone who thinks like them that they're wrong, condemn the person who wrote the character (which wasn't even David Gaider), and go on a soapbox tirade so that, goddamn it, everyone knows how wrong they are?

[SunburnedPenguin]

Phantomrachie has pretty much summed up what I wanted to say. So I will just add this; there is no shame in admitting you may have been wrong.

[phantomrachie]

I too play video games to escape from reality (I have a highly stressful RL), However Bioware and their writers are trying to westernized dragon age series by bringing real life issues into the game, and that I was forced to called Krem a guy when I had no other option to voice my disapproval. I was forced to accept it as it is, and go on. I thought my choice and decisions matters? Isn't that what they've been bragging about all this time?

 

I play video games to expand my imagination... no matter how bizarre or how offensive it is.

 

what? Westerise Dragon Age? It is a western RPG.

 

You also can't disapprove of Dorian or Sera being gay or Iron Bull and Josephine for being bisexual. You also can't tell Cassandra that she should be at home making babies instead of being a front line warrior or tell Iron Bull that he is daemon spawn.

 

There are lots of things you can't say to characters because it all has to be scripted, rather then the Inquisitor reading your mine and spouting whatever crap you like. 

[Little Princess Peach]

I too play video games to escape from reality (I have a highly stressful RL), However Bioware and their writers are trying to westernized dragon age series by bringing real life issues into the game, and that I was forced to called Krem a guy when I had no other option to voice my disapproval. I was forced to accept it as it is, and go on. I thought my choice and decisions matters? Isn't that what they've been bragging about all this time?

 

I play video games to expand my imagination... no matter how bizarre or how offensive it is.

I could of sworn we had some option where Bull gained dissaprovel over something if we did not just accept it how it was

[Syre297]

I too play video games to escape from reality (I have a highly stressful RL), However Bioware and their writers are trying to westernized dragon age series by bringing real life issues into the game, and that I was forced to called Krem a guy when I had no other option to voice my disapproval. I was forced to accept it as it is, and go on. I thought my choice and decisions matters? Isn't that what they've been bragging about all this time?

 

I play video games to expand my imagination... no matter how bizarre or how offensive it is.

The beauty of having Iron Bull- and thus Krem- as an optional companion, is that you have the CHOICE not to deal with it at all. But just as in real life, if you chose to associate with an individual and that individual happens to be born female and yet self identifies as a male, you have to deal with it. You don't, however have to agree with it, or even continue to associate with this person.