135 réponses à ce sujet

[DraGGon2k]

When they first announced they would focus on exploration in the next ME game I was happy because I always liked the idea of planet exploration in ME1, just wished it would've been handled better. But now after playing Dragon Age: Inquisition, which is bursting with filler content and fetch quests, I'm scared.

 

Please don't bite off more than you can chew and build 50 explorable planets which then all lack meaningful content. I don't want to travel around in the Mako looking for relic collectibles(like the "Shards"), create Camps etc. Give me hand-made, interesting sidequests with actual context and consequences. I thought ME2 had really good sidequests. So did games like Vampire: Bloodlines or Fallout: New Vegas. In ME3 I thought 99% of sidequests where "Fly into arena #35, shoot everything and activate terminals, done" or finding some artifacts randomly that someone on the Citadel wanted.

 

Please don't do that. Please respect my time.

 

Oh and also, for the love of good please don't use this semi-zoomed in dialogue view with sidequests from DA:I. It just added to the randomness/feeling of disconnect the game had in sidequests.

 

I'm just really scared that with all the (in my opinion frankly undeserved) media praise and GOTY awards BioWare got for DA:I they'll make the mistake of taking those elements into Mass Effect as well.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Element Zero]

You'll find a lot of agreement, here. Even those who enjoyed DAI generally acknowledge this was a problem. More than a few of us have expressed the same concerns you shared above.

[Soultaker08]

It hurts to play DAI filler quests because it makes you realize what could´ve been with a trade in of the time to make 10 meaningless grind/fetch/nonsense quests     ( seriously some tasks should have a punch/chair to the face option for even asking the Inquisitor to do them )   for one decent fleshed out full dialogue sidequest.

 

Well im keeping my hopes up for MEN, though im cautious now.

[Element Zero]

I'd have scrapped most of the pretty, but useless, areas if I could get a few more main storyline quests in exchange. The grinding and pointless bloat ruined DAI for me. I hate the gameplay of the DA series, and only play them for the lore and characters. DAI killed even that desire. I'll read the novels, forums and wiki for future games, unless they come to their senses and make DA a proper Action RPG (like a Swords and Sorcery Mass Effect). I'm not holding my breath.

The good news is that the inclusion of a few relatively empty locales make sense in space. Also, ME will likely have great gameplay, as ME3 had before it. DAI's dated mechanics make it a chore to play. ME's gameplay is a joy, in comparison. It's simply a much more fun game to play, in my opinion.

[Mcfly616]

I hope it's a callback to ME1's exploration more than anything. Obviously I hope it's better crafted and implemented with greater variety. But I've been thrown off by the linearity of the sequels since the day ME2 released. I personally thought ME2's side missions were terrible from a plot and narrative standpoint. I was definitely unsatisfied. 

 

 

I like looking for relics of ancient civilizations and stumbling upon ship wreckage and skeletal remains of ill-fated explorers who had passed thru before me. I certainly don't want every little thing I do in the game to be tied back into the main story. That's an easy way to make the universe seem ridiculously small and completely break my immersion. 

[Element Zero]

I hope it's a callback to ME1's exploration more than anything. Obviously I hope it's better crafted and implemented with greater variety. But I've been thrown off by the linearity of the sequels since the day ME2 released. I personally thought ME2's side missions were terrible from a plot and narrative standpoint. I was definitely unsatisfied.


I like looking for relics of ancient civilizations and stumbling upon ship wreckage and skeletal remains of ill-fated explorers who had passed thru before me. I certainly don't want every little thing I do in the game to be tied back into the main story. That's an easy way to make the universe seem ridiculously small and completely break my immersion.

Absolutely.

In DAI, much of the "exploration" felt like crap we really shouldn't be wasting our time doing. It wasn't fun gameplay, and was better suited for minions, story wise. If properly executed in ME, though, it can be much better. Exploring space, as McFly describes above, is much more enjoyable for me than roaming an empty desert and picking weeds. The words "Space" and "Exploration" belong together.

The ME team could definitely screw this up and give us a bland, grind of a game. They are starting with a world better suited to this type of exploration, though, in my opinion. They likely will continue to have the engaging, exciting gameplay mechanics that DA lacks. This better supports those slower spots. They also have time to consider DAI's failings before repeating them.

[MrFob]

Well, I am playing DA:I right now and I do enjoy it quite a bit (see here). I am also not opposed to some filler content. Little things that encourage you to explore the environments are great IMO.

 

However,, there are two problems I can see in the way DAI handles things and I hope they improve this for NME:

1. It is simply a bit too much. I am a completionist, bordering on OCD in that aspect (I will do all ME1 side quests, even on my 20th playthrough and even though I know they are rather boring at times). This is a bit of a problem for DAI because i just can't go on with the main story. That is NOT to say that the NME world should be smaller or have less stuff to explore in it, just, work on the pacing, maybe give us a couple more cinematic side quests to find through exploration as well, not just shards (DAI players will know what I am talking about ).

2. And here is probably the main point: Do not make filler content in the form of journal quests with quest markers on the map that then don't have any real quest coming with it.

I don't need to see in my journal that I still need to collect 150 shards, 300 minerals and 220 circuit boards in the next ME, all with markers on the goddam mini map. Because you know what that means? It means I will spend the next 5 minutes trying to jump up some mountain to get to the marker that is 5 meters away, only to find out that I have to walk 2 km in the other direction first to pass the terrain. This is not exploring, it's frustrating and I don't get to see your beautiful environments with stunning vistas, I get to see the blurry texture on a mountain side. (ME1 had a similar problem with the Mako at times).

 

Instead take a page out of the book of the Gothic developers from back in the year 2000 (Gothic 1/2). Here's is what they did: They give you a fairly open world (not that different to the DAI maps). They then put quite a lot of quests in there which are all tracked in your journal. All these quests involve talking to NPCs, getting some information and then do stuff (maybe even with NPCs at your side). They are full blown interesting quests.

Additionally, the world is chock full with stuff that doesn't have anything to do with these quests. "Oh look, back there is a tower, wonder what's going on there" -> "Oh, there are some nasty Harpies in there" -> "Oh look, on the top of the tower, I found a chest with an awesome sword". None of this is in the journal. None of this needs a quest marker. And thus, the best part is, while I go to that tower, I don't look at the mini map, I look at the beautiful little mountain river that I am crossing on an old wooden bridge, I look at that destroyed cottage on the wayside, in short, I really look at your environment which I am journeying through, rather than just my next target.

Of course, none of this will even be seen by a lot of players. But it's not useless content because the other lot of players will just see the tower in the distance and think "that vista with the tower looks cool". So it's not wasted material, on the contrary, An open world lives off the fact that it's bigger than the player and their quest(s), that there is more to it which doesn't really have anything to do with you but gives you the freedom to explore it nonetheless.

 

Ok, that post got a bit out of hand. tldr: Give us environments full of small stuff to explore but make quest entries and markers only for full blown quests.

 

P.S.: Please give us a sticky note function for the map. It's such an easy feature to provide, it should never have died out.

[Element Zero]

Great post, MrFob. If they take the time to read their fans' opinions here, which I think they do, we'll be in good shape. There is a lot of good, constructive feedback offered in these forums.

[InterrogationBear]

Well guys, you wanted exploration. Exploration is filler content.

 

What are you doing on an unexplored and uninhabited planet? Geological and environmental surveys.

[DraGGon2k]

Well guys, you wanted exploration. Exploration is filler content.

 

What are you doing on an unexplored and uninhabited planet? Geological and environmental surveys.

No, exploration does not equal filler content.

[MrFob]

Well guys, you wanted exploration. Exploration is filler content.

 

What are you doing on an unexplored and uninhabited planet? Geological and environmental surveys.

 

For me, DA:I is not an exploration game, it's a logistics game.

 

I don't explore cool places on the map, I draw an imaginary "ideal route" line between the abundance of quest markers on the map and then I labor through it (sometimes being deterred by the topography of the terrain or even more quest markers that pop up from 3 km away).

 

Maybe I am playing it wrong but given the design, I just can't help myself. There are a few positive exceptions to the rule (e.g. skeches and treasure maps) but all in all, that's the problem.

[Mcfly616]

Speaking of quest markers, there better be a way to turn them off. I cannot stand playing a game with all these icons and indicators blocking my field of view. We should have the option to turn off anything in the hud.

[SimonTheFrog]

Good post MrFob.

 

I agree that the markers on DAI's map are overwhelming at first but sofar i keep enjoying clearing the maps even if some of it is a little boring. There's a lot of good stuff even in the small quests. Shards are a weird design-choice but thats a different issue i think.

 

The thing is, that if the "interesting but non-essential" stuff is removed from the minimap, than i'd have the constant feeling of missing out. This issue gets stronger the more open the levels are (and if there is no fog of war With fow you can lawn-mow through the areas which feels like work but is also highly gratifying).

 

Anyhow: my dream MEN would have open areas and no minimap for anything other than major plot points just as you described Gothic1. I just don't know how to let the player know which areas he already discovered (or cleared). But i'm sure there'd be a solution for that.

 

The filler stuff would be stuff like "collect resources", "recover and identify alien artifacts", "help and rescue NPC's", cartograph unexplored territories (yes, i grew up with StarTrek...so there ). It would all be embedded in the overall arc.

 

The difficult task is probably to find the sweet spot between "there is enough to do to make the world feel alive" and "this is the shopping list from hell". Nobody said game design is easy

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well guys, you wanted exploration. Exploration is filler content.

 

What are you doing on an unexplored and uninhabited planet? Geological and environmental surveys.

 

Not if you make the exploration itself rewarding. The Elder Scrolls series has many faults but that's one thing they got right.

[Vespervin]

I don't mind filler content as long as they don't go overboard with it.

[MrFob]

@SimonTheFrog: I mostly agree with your points. Just one thing about the feeling of missing out:

I think that's part of the coolness of exploration. In fact, I think exploration is all about the "chance" to miss out on stuff. If you couldn't miss out, then what's the point of exploring?

Especially for Mass Effect, a game that focuses so much on providing a different experience for different players, this concept should fit ideally. Devs (especially BW devs) always like to say things like "if two players meet at school/work and discuss the game, one may say "x happened to me" and the other will say "No way! For me y happened". And that is why our games are awesome". In the past, ME mainly implemented this diversity through story decisions and dialogue choices. I think it would fit perfectly to implement this diversity also in the exploration gameplay. Now the two guys meet and one says "hey, I was just on planet x and found this cool gun in an abandoned prefab building on a ridge to the north" while the second guy goes "Wow, never saw that but on planet y, there is a hidden entrance to a prothean ruin, where you can find research for an heat sink mod."

Now, IMO that would be awesome!

 

Additionally, because of its dialogue choices, ME games inherently have an incredible replay value. Therefore, I think it is great if you haven't found everything yet on your first or second playthrough. I remember on my 6th or so playthrough of Gothic 1, I decided to try and climb up some cliff side I had never bothered with before and hey, I found a cave with a hermit who just wanted to get away from everyone. Spoke 3 lines with him, completely "useless" for the game but a great experience for me to still discover new stuff.

 

Man I really need to stop with these giant posts. Long story short, missing out can be an advantage in an ME style semi open world game IMO.

 

Oh, but I wholeheartedly agree on the map/game design being crucial. That's gonna be the tricky part without a doubt.

[Nitrocuban]

Yes, no planet scanning MK2  or other tedious filler content to up gamplay to XYZ hrs. Rather 35hrs of great gameplay than 150hrs with 70% mediocre filler content.

Kotaku wrote a good article about DAI and its ... timeconsuming sidequests.

http://kotaku.com/i-...time-1678068850

[SimonTheFrog]

long post which is still worth reading so go check it out...

 

Haha yes, you are right. "Missing out" can actually be pretty cool if you plan to play the game several times. And a good MassEffect SHOULD be played several times. So, good point.

[Dr. Rush]

Yeah, after playing DAI, I had a scary thought, that we're going to see a game a lot like DAI in ME4. I do not want to see alien planets and homeworlds that are designed like DAI areas.

 

First, the scale of the world should be proportionate to a single-player game. None of this DAI/MMO/Kingdoms of Amalur world design where the word isn't scaled for a single player experience. Think about the differences of scale between Skyrim and Amalur, Skyrim was a large, open world game that was designed for single-player, Amalur was designed for hundreds of people in an MMO and then shoehorned into a singleplayer game, its the wrong scale.

 

Second, all the boring filler content. I do not want any of that. There are so many forgettable and boring quests in DAI. ME4 needs to be more discerning with quality over quantity. I don't want a bunch of filler, I want meaningful and memorable quests. Even if that means having fewer overall sidequests, and fewer hours of gameplay, I'd rather have a 30 hour game of quality content, than 100 hours of filler quantity. 

[rapscallioness]

Tbh, as far as I'm concerned they can throw out all collectible quests. I have no interest in collectible quests.

 

Ofc, I would like to see stunning vistas and new worlds, but I'm in it for the characters and story. Which to me means that ideally these stunning locations would have a unifying story to them and people that occupy it.

 

Like Feros, it had characters and a story. The whole Thorian thing and how it was affecting the colonists. And for that matter just trying to figure wth was going on there.

 

Noveria had a story. Corporate culture of MEU. And the abuse of it. You got a little taste of it.

 

Both of these areas also had little sidequests like that shoot out on the upper level of Noveria. Or trying to get the water, power, food thing on Feros. I was going that way anyway so helping them out with that was no problem. Or running into the Exogeni people.

 

So, for the most part I would like the areas to have a unified story and characters to push that story forward.

 

I mean, DAI had story and characters in their areas, but for some reason--which I don't know why--it just felt different.  Although, I think Crestwood was pretty good. It felt more like one story in that area. Whereas..Exalted Plains--it was the Orlesian armies fighting each other, and you had to stop the dead from rising caused by the Freemen of the Dales..apparently. But Crestwood just felt like a more compelling area to me than Exalted Plains.

 

edit: I've had a difficult time articulating the differences I feel. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I emerged from missions like Feros and Noveria, I felt like I had been on an adventure.  I had emerged from a quest like, "whew, that got crazy." I also felt like that with DAO with quest like the Sacred Urn, or Orzammar. By the time it was all over I felt like I had been wrung dry--in a good way. Whereas with DAI, I did not get that sense. I felt more like I had just been running around.

 

While I did I have fun with it...most definitely, I don't want every game to be like that.

[JamesFaith]

Not if you make the exploration itself rewarding. The Elder Scrolls series has many faults but that's one thing they got right.

 

I didn't play Skyrim (too much work and minimum free time) but I remember that Oblivion wasn't very rewarding too. Except Daedric shrines there were just generic caves, mines and fortresses, there were 3 uninteresting places for 1 interesting with some quest.

 

Only game I'm calling back now which did it well was Gothic 3. No generic caves, unique places hidden in desert and woods, mostly one of its kind like ruined castle, and hidden quest givers like hunters, rebels or escaped slaves. In fact their quest Okara needs more people is one of best I ever saw in open world game - no direction, no number, just find more people for rebel camp in area and persuade them. It took days to find last one.

[L. Han]

Your fears are justified. There are people on the Dragon Age forums going out to claim that the game is 'perfect' and the fetch quest being one of the best way to explore the world.

 

Baffling, but it's their opinion.

[dreamgazer]

Your fears are justified. There are people on the Dragon Age forums going out to claim that the game is 'perfect' and the fetch quest being one of the best way to explore the world.

I've read the same defense for the Mako and the dogtag/insignia/artifact fetch quests in ME1, and BioWare's got "exploration" on the brain.

I think we're gonna see some fetch quests.

[themikefest]

If its not required, I don't have a problem with having filler content

[Element Zero]

If its not required, I don't have a problem with having filler content

Yeah, for me the nail in DAI's coffin was putting a soft-lock on the main storyline. With those "power" requirements, some grinding is essential. It may not be much; I'm honestly unsure. At this point, I'm disinterested enough that I don't care to experiment and find out just much grinding I can avoid.

Some non-essential filler is to be expected. I just don't want the volume of filler, even of the non-essential kind, to be too high. A lot of filler, as we see in DAI, is wasted development resources, in terms of building the type of game I'd want. All that time and labor spent creating those sprawling, non-essential zones in DAI, could've been at least partially diverted to more substantial main story quests or companion quests. I hope ME finds a better balance.