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[SNascimento]

Before Tevinter the Dragon Age Team must learn to build cities! 

[Brockololly]

Before Tevinter the Dragon Age Team must learn to build cities! 

Seriously.

 

Even in Inquisition, we go to Val Royeaux which is supposed to be one of the largest and most grand cities in all of Thedas. And all we see is a tiny, lifeless market square.

 

I'm guessing its Frostbite related though, since the one time Inquisition attempts at putting a bunch of NPCs in a populated area (Redcliffe) the performance goes to crap. And its not like those NPCs even had varied routines going on like in something like Skyrim or The Witcher 2.

[SNascimento]

Seriously.

 

Even in Inquisition, we go to Val Royeaux which is supposed to be one of the largest and most grand cities in all of Thedas. And all we see is a tiny, lifeless market square.

 

I'm guessing its Frostbite related though, since the one time Inquisition attempts at putting a bunch of NPCs in a populated area (Redcliffe) the performance goes to crap. And its not like those NPCs even had varied routines going on like in something like Skyrim or The Witcher 2.

I doubt that. The Frostbyte engine seems to be really powerful, besides, this complain could be said about many other games, Bioware or not. 

Not to mention my problem with Val Royeaux has less to do with the number of people in it than it's physical construction. It's just too plain, too uninspired, without any glory. And it utterly fails to show it as a huge city, it feels like a small trading center.

[TheLittleBird]

I doubt that. The Frostbyte engine seems to be really powerful, besides, this complain could be said about many other games, Bioware or not. 

Not to mention my problem with Val Royeaux has less to do with the number of people in it than it's physical construction. It's just too plain, too uninspired, without any glory. And it utterly fails to show it as a huge city, it feels like a small trading center.

 

Val Royeaux is the one place in all of DA:I where I see a lazy side of development. You see, Denerim in DA:O was amazing, it truly felt like you were in a city, with the buildings rising up outside of the accessible area and the fact that you could see things like Fort Drakon from anywhere in the city.

 

But here? It feels like the Summer Bazaar is on a very steep hill that reaches miles above the actual city. Sure you can see tops of towers and - if you look closely - houses on some of the other hills, but where's the Imperial Palace, or the White Spire, or the Grand Cathedral? I know from the books that at least the former two should be visible from basically anywhere in the city. It's disappointing. I don't need some weird lake so you can still have a view but have a lore-reason as to why there's nothing else around the bazaar. 

 

The whole are just feels so.. cut off. Kirkwall didn't even have that... admittedly, it didn't have views upon other parts of the city like in Denerim but at least it felt like those could have been obstructed by the tall buildings around you. 

[pdusen]

I'm guessing its Frostbite related though, since the one time Inquisition attempts at putting a bunch of NPCs in a populated area (Redcliffe) the performance goes to crap. And its not like those NPCs even had varied routines going on like in something like Skyrim or The Witcher 2.

Frostbite is the engine that powers Battlefield. So, no, not a frostbite issue.

More likely that due to constraints on previous-gen consoles, DAI avoided dealing with big cities except as necessary. We'll have to see how they do for MEnext and DA4.

[Kantr]

Frostbite is the engine that powers Battlefield. So, no, not a frostbite issue.

More likely that due to constraints on previous-gen consoles, DAI avoided dealing with big cities except as necessary. We'll have to see how they do for MEnext and DA4.

They spefically said that older consoles meant that there would be fewer background npcs. What  I thought though was that meant 360 and ps3 would have fewer. Not that everyone would have an empty world because of old gen.

[SNascimento]

Val Royeaux is the one place in all of DA:I where I see a lazy side of development. You see, Denerim in DA:O was amazing, it truly felt like you were in a city, with the buildings rising up outside of the accessible area and the fact that you could see things like Fort Drakon from anywhere in the city.

I thought the artstyle of DAO to be very lackluster. So Denerim just felt a generic bunch of building put together.

[Natureguy85]

I thought the artstyle of DAO to be very lackluster. So Denerim just felt a generic bunch of building put together.

 

True but it fit Ferelden. Orlais on the other hand is supposed to be very ornate and showy. To step out of the game, we could also point to more being expected of a more modern game.

[Phoe77]

I actually like what we see of Val Royeaux, but it feels incredibly small and the backdrop doesn't fit with the idea of a big city.  The actual buildings and statues and everything in the bazaar look fine to me, but the place hardly seems big enough to be a trading hub of southern Thedas.  Denerim's market seems bigger than Val Royeaux's.  

 

It would have been really nice to see a big city style backdrop too.  As it is, the place seems like a small but fancy trading post in the middle of a lake.

[In Exile]

Seriously.

 

Even in Inquisition, we go to Val Royeaux which is supposed to be one of the largest and most grand cities in all of Thedas. And all we see is a tiny, lifeless market square.

 

I'm guessing its Frostbite related though, since the one time Inquisition attempts at putting a bunch of NPCs in a populated area (Redcliffe) the performance goes to crap. And its not like those NPCs even had varied routines going on like in something like Skyrim or The Witcher 2.

 

The routines can't be an issue - or rather if it is an issue that would presumably have to do with processing. And I wouldn't cite either Skyrim or TW2 as examples for how to build cities. If Bioware wants to create a city then the best influence they have to look at is, IMO, the AC series of games. Beyond that I would look to something like GTA before I would get within 100 feet of the worker ants in Skyrim. 

[In Exile]

True but it fit Ferelden. Orlais on the other hand is supposed to be very ornate and showy. To step out of the game, we could also point to more being expected of a more modern game.

 

Well, if Denerim was supposed to be a bunch of dilapidated hovels then in theory it looked like it was meant to look. The problem with that is that Denerim fails at actually conveying the proper level of dirty poverty. The Alienage looks pretty much exactly like the market, and the market is about as ornate as the Arl's Mansion and surrounding area. That's just as bad as what we see in DA:I.

 

Bioware doesn't understand cities in 3D. Kirkwall is illustrative of that but this is a problem they've had going almost as far back as Taris in KoTOR. 

[Natureguy85]

Well, if Denerim was supposed to be a bunch of dilapidated hovels then in theory it looked like it was meant to look. The problem with that is that Denerim fails at actually conveying the proper level of dirty poverty. The Alienage looks pretty much exactly like the market, and the market is about as ornate as the Arl's Mansion and surrounding area. That's just as bad as what we see in DA:I

 

 

 

Yeah, you are right there. I was referring to it being relatively plain. It would have been nice to see some differentiation between the different areas for sure.

[wolfhowwl]

Well, if Denerim was supposed to be a bunch of dilapidated hovels then in theory it looked like it was meant to look. The problem with that is that Denerim fails at actually conveying the proper level of dirty poverty. The Alienage looks pretty much exactly like the market, and the market is about as ornate as the Arl's Mansion and surrounding area. That's just as bad as what we see in DA:I.

 

Bioware doesn't understand cities in 3D. Kirkwall is illustrative of that but this is a problem they've had going almost as far back as Taris in KoTOR. 

 

Is it understanding or just that they don't consider investing in the talent or technology to pull it off necessary for their games and have decided to just scrape by instead.

[In Exile]

Yeah, you are right there. I was referring to it being relatively plain. It would have been nice to see some differentiation between the different areas for sure.

My point is just that DAO is plagued by the same problem of verisimilitude. We don't see it as much because there's no build up to it like Val Royeaux. But when you think about it Denerim makes very little sense.

[In Exile]

Is it understanding or just that they don't consider investing in the talent or technology to pull it off necessary for their games and have decided to just scrape by instead.

It's definetly understanding. Look at some super memorable NPCs Bioware can craft. Lace Harding or Hespith were done in very few scenes, with very little writing dedicated to them. Compare that to other videogame characters who have five times the content and no real personality or character.

Bioware doesn't get cities. If they did they could do a good job with them even with little investment. It would be underwhelming in scope and size but not in execution.

[MonkeyLungs]

I certainly hope that Dragon Age is not done. I really want to see how the story plays out. I do think they need to tighten up the storytelling and relax on the amount of cliffhangers they leave us with.

 

I also really hope they don't plan to make endless Dragon Age games and that there is a clear path to the ultimate finale of the story planned.

[Brockololly]

The routines can't be an issue - or rather if it is an issue that would presumably have to do with processing. And I wouldn't cite either Skyrim or TW2 as examples for how to build cities. If Bioware wants to create a city then the best influence they have to look at is, IMO, the AC series of games. Beyond that I would look to something like GTA before I would get within 100 feet of the worker ants in Skyrim. 

 

Well, my point with the AI routines is that in Skyrim or TW2 in cities (or just about anywhere) the NPCs have actual routines where they're moving around based on the day/night cycle, doing jobs and just doing stuff. That helps make those worlds feel a little more alive than something like Inquisition where (especially in villages or cities) the NPCs are glued to the ground in very specific spots or if they do move around its just aimlessly.

 

With respect to Redcliffe, I'm guessing it is a processing power issue or at least a matter of optimizing things with Frostbite. Reading interviews with Darrah and I get the impression a good chunk of development of DA:I was simply spent adapting Frostbite to accomodate an RPG. Just basic RPG things they had to build from scratch. Hell, look at how miserable the companion AI is in the game. Something seems amiss there.

 

But sure, AC cities with those sorts of crowds are great and if BioWare could emulate that, then that would be wonderful. I just don't see that happening barring some tech breakthrough for them.

[tmp7704]

I thought the artstyle of DAO to be very lackluster. So Denerim just felt a generic bunch of building put together.

DAO was hamstrung in this regard -- there's no actual pre-made building models that the level artist would be able to place in their "city" and such. All these huts and whatnot were individually and painstakingly put together from tiny pieces of walls and wooden beams. That's why it looks... the way it looks.

[In Exile]

DAO was hamstrung in this regard -- there's no actual pre-made building models that the level artist would be able to place in their "city" and such. All these huts and whatnot were individually and painstakingly put together from tiny pieces of walls and wooden beams. That's why it looks... the way it looks.

Do you mean DAI?

[tmp7704]

Do you mean DAI?

No, I mean DAO. With DAI they've learned their lesson it seems -- there's like 2-3 generic huts you see all over the Hinterlands and in Haven, and I wouldn't be surprised if the ruins you see elsewhere were similar complete pre-mades.

[robertthebard]

No, I mean DAO. With DAI they've learned their lesson it seems -- there's like 2-3 generic huts you see all over the Hinterlands and in Haven, and I wouldn't be surprised if the ruins you see elsewhere were similar complete pre-mades.

In going through the toolset back in the day, there were indeed prefabs. The learning curve was too steep for me, but I did take a look through the tools. There were even complete battlements. The bridge you run across in Ostagar on the way to the Tower is one piece, for example.

[tmp7704]

In going through the toolset back in the day, there were indeed prefabs. The learning curve was too steep for me, but I did take a look through the tools. There were even complete battlements. The bridge you run across in Ostagar on the way to the Tower is one piece, for example.

I'm pretty sure when it comes to the huts/houses specifically there were none, because for the life of me I couldn't find any when playing with idea of making a larger version of Denerim. So I loaded DAO maps to see what I was missing and found out to my horror they're all made from small pieces glued together in the editor. Which is precisely why they looked like bunch of random pieces glued together in the game ;3

[In Exile]

No, I mean DAO. With DAI they've learned their lesson it seems -- there's like 2-3 generic huts you see all over the Hinterlands and in Haven, and I wouldn't be surprised if the ruins you see elsewhere were similar complete pre-mades.

Fair enough. They looked incredibly generic to me - so it kind of surprises me to hear they were not premade. But then hearing how they were not premade - using glued together premade pieces - and it just sounds like Bioware managed to find the worst of both worlds. Which is often their design route if you ask me.

[robertthebard]

I'm pretty sure when it comes to the huts/houses specifically there were none, because for the life of me I couldn't find any when playing with idea of making a larger version of Denerim. So I loaded DAO maps to see what I was missing and found out to my horror they're all made from small pieces glued together in the editor. Which is precisely why they looked like bunch of random pieces glued together in the game ;3

I could reload it and check, and my memory isn't what it once was, but I had thought I had seen some. It would be more surprising, for me, to discover they didn't have them though, considering the NWNs toolset's options. There were some set tiles for outdoors, but most of the tilesets were interior. Caves and castles and such.

Unrelated, but interesting, I much preferred NWN 2's terrain tools, where you could actually make mountain paths, instead of ramps.

[tmp7704]

I could reload it and check, and my memory isn't what it once was, but I had thought I had seen some. It would be more surprising, for me, to discover they didn't have them though, considering the NWNs toolset's options.

It's possible you remember some of the larger pieces -- city walls and towers e.g. and also some walls + streets segments which were used for the human noble origin map, and the ruined Tevinter bits. It was definitely a surprise for me too, though it explained why the game looked the way it did.