137 réponses à ce sujet

[Rolenka]

The green smoke is too brief before the uppercut for a person to see it and react. Maybe it's because I'm 32, but it does not seem like a realistic reaction time. I am terrible at Call of Duty. I did great at ME3MP, though, and I don't think DAI should require faster reflexes than that.

 

I also get hit with it frequently while sprinting. I follow BWEAmelia's advice and start sprinting when he goes down, and I still get hit. Sometimes he goes down and comes up immediately. Sometimes he stays down for a while.

 

We should not need to memorize a flow chart to know when he *might* panic scream. There should be enough time to get out of the way once it starts. A mobility ability should make it easier, but it should not be required.

 

Even if the uppercut were easy to avoid, I agree that nothing should 1-hit kill. Yes, there are other enemies that do it, and they should be nerfed, too.

[Saboteur-6]

The green smoke is too brief before the uppercut for a person to see it and react. Maybe it's because I'm 32, but it does not seem like a realistic reaction time. I am terrible at Call of Duty. I did great at ME3MP, though, and I don't think DAI should require faster reflexes than that.

 

I also get hit with it frequently while sprinting. I follow BWEAmelia's advice and start sprinting when he goes down, and I still get hit. Sometimes he goes down and comes up immediately. Sometimes he stays down for a while.

 

We should not need to memorize a flow chart to know when he *might* panic scream. There should be enough time to get out of the way once it starts. A mobility ability should make it easier, but it should not be required.

 

Even if the uppercut were easy to avoid, I agree that nothing should 1-hit kill. Yes, there are other enemies that do it, and they should be nerfed, too.

 

Man the green smoke IS what people use to avoid the uppercut. People successfully dodge the uppercut. It's a thing that happens.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

This thread went places while I was gone...

[Rolenka]

Man the green smoke IS what people use to avoid the uppercut. People successfully dodge the uppercut. It's a thing that happens.

 

You didn't read the rest of that paragraph after the first sentence, did you?

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

What's kind of funny is that I was just doing duos with a friend I haven't played with in months (we used to play ME 3 MP a lot.)

 

We went the entire session, about 3 Threatening matches, and probably 10 or 12 Routine ones, without running into demons. We had varying degrees of success, usually wiping, but passing almost half of them. Our most success came from duos where she used a Keeper, with Static Cage, which seemed to do enormous damage whenever I would use a detonator on enemies in the cage (especially elemental mines... ohgawd the destruction! )

 

Anyway, long story made slightly shorter, our last match of the day turned out to be demons (of course.) We both immediately commented on how our recent string of successes was about to come to an end with the Demon Commander in Zone 5.

 

She was using the Keeper in that last match, and I had switched to my Archer, who has Evade (I plan to respec him, or did, anyway.) Explosive Shot and Long Shot both made short work of anything in Static Cage, and consequently, we were able to wipe out large groups of wraiths without getting pummeled too badly.

 

For Zone 5, I tried dodging the Demon Commander with evade... and it actually worked. Key was, it was the only time that I've ever fought one as the host. I always Quick Match, never bothering to host myself, and none of the anti-DC techniques I read about ever worked for me. This was the only time they did, and I'm pretty sure it was because I wasn't getting lag.

 

Anyway, we passed it.

[Trickshaw]

Actually I would love to see a full video of how you solo perilous with a hunter, or most classes really. I havent tried myself but thats just because I either thought it would take too long or that I thought it would be nigh impossible.
Thank you in advance.

This is my take on Perilous: It's not SUPPOSED to be solo'd. The damage and health on mobs are jacked sooo far up that the only classes that have a realistic chance to complete a Perilous solo are the ones that have an HP renewable resource. I.E. Barrier or Guard. So not being able to solo Perilous is not only a GOOD thing but also not something to be frowned on.

The game wasn't designed for that.

This game is EZMode in groups. It really is. Barring bad pugs of course. And I like a challenge but I also like DAMP. I'm the kind of person that continuously looks for new ways to challenge myself and since DAMP basically doesn't have that built in I started inventing ways to challenge myself.

Like, what I call the "One Health Bar Challenge". Threatening, solo, no health potions and no recovery stations. GOGOGO!

With all that said I have only completed a Perilous solo run once and the only way that happened was because every wraith in the match was replaced with Mabari for some reason. I didn't actually see a wraith until wave 5. And, at least IMO, wraiths and archers are the ones that make it so difficult. Archers rarely miss. I've been mid leap on evade and sniped from across the map yet if they casually move a foot to the left I miss. It's annoying. Wraiths have this uncanny ability to spawn BEHIND you after you clear all the rooms behind you and go to pull the next room. Not to mention that the fire/cold/electricity wraiths are literally invisible at minimum settings; which is the only way I can play.

But I keep plugging away at it. It's the primary reason I haven't hit 250 Hunter missions weeks ago. I can reliably get to wave 4/5 Venatori on perilous so I stopped doing them. I can get to wave 3/4 reliably with Templars and 2/3 with Demons. When I first started I couldn't get past wave 1. But you just gotta keep doing it. You learn the maps like the back of your hand and you pick up tons of tricks.

It's the only way to get legit better with your chosen profession imo. Steam rolling perilous in groups is fun but let's face it, you're not pushing yourself and you''re not gonna become a truly better player by doing that day in day out. Besides, it gets boring after awhile. At least for me.

I can throw some videos up for you but I can only record in 2 minute increments if I'm lucky. I can't run DAMP and a recorder without my comp crashing every couple minutes. Dragon Age runs my CPU into the ground. No other game I own does that. Just Dragon Age.

Or if you wanna join me my OID is in my sig. We can run some "one health bar challenges" on Perilous. See how far we get. It's fun. = )

[Saboteur-6]

You didn't read the rest of that paragraph after the first sentence, did you?

Of course I read the whole thing. You're basically saying that you have personal difficulty with reaction times yet somehow it's the games fault.

[Trickshaw]

Of course I read the whole thing. You're basically saying that you have personal difficulty with reaction times yet somehow it's the games fault.

 

I think he's referring to the part where he says even in full sprint he still gets ganked which I concur happens, at least to me, pretty much all the time.  I've never "dodged" DC's OHK without using stealth and/or evade.  Not once.  I've read some people have luck with standing on stairs and this somehow negates it from happening.  Never done it myself.  Even if it works, it only validates the need to have DC nerfed.  People should not be required to spec a certain way to survive an encounter nor should they be required to basically cheat the system to survive said encounter either.

 

And let's say, for argument's sake that it's some kind of lag or system related issue that prevents me, and possibly others, from "dodging" said mechanic simply because our computers and/or internet connections aren't top of the line.  Designing a game INTENDED FOR ONLINE PLAY should inherently have latency issues accounted for.  Any OHK mechanic that relies on perfect reaction time in an online environment is... again... bad game design.

 

It's not a L2P issue, it's a "we're too lazy to design a legit difficult scenario" issue.

 

To put it another way:

 

Imagine there's a game.  There are any number of ways to make your character.  Spec him any way you want.  In fact, the designers encourage this behavior and use it as a selling point for their game.  Now imagine that the last boss of that game cannot be beaten unless you have "X" ability slotted.  To add to that, you cannot respec your character.  Your only choice is to reroll and begin the game anew.  That's right, you can't beat the game unless you reroll and make sure your character has a very specific build variation.

 

I want you to *really* drink that in.  Imagine what the forums for that game would be like.  The community for that game would, figuratively, implode.

 

Bad game design is bad game design is bad game design.

[-PenguinFetish-]

I think he's referring to the part where he says even in full sprint he still gets ganked which I concur happens, at least to me, pretty much all the time. I've never "dodged" DC's OHK without using stealth and/or evade. Not once. I've read some people have luck with standing on stairs and this somehow negates it from happening. Never done it myself. Even if it works, it only validates the need to have DC nerfed. People should not be required to spec a certain way to survive an encounter nor should they be required to basically cheat the system to survive said encounter either.

And let's say, for argument's sake that it's some kind of lag or system related issue that prevents me, and possibly others, from "dodging" said mechanic simply because our computers and/or internet connections aren't top of the line. Designing a game INTENDED FOR ONLINE PLAY should inherently have latency issues accounted for. Any OHK mechanic that relies on perfect reaction time in an online environment is... again... bad game design.

It's not a L2P issue, it's a "we're too lazy to design a legit difficult scenario" issue.

To put it another way:

Imagine there's a game. There are any number of ways to make your character. Spec him any way you want. In fact, the designers encourage this behavior and use it as a selling point for their game. Now imagine that the last boss of that game cannot be beaten unless you have "X" ability slotted. To add to that, you cannot respec your character. Your only choice is to reroll and begin the game anew. That's right, you can't beat the game unless you reroll and make sure your character has a very specific build variation.

I want you to *really* drink that in. Imagine what the forums for that game would be like. The community for that game would, figuratively, implode.

Bad game design is bad game design is bad game design.

Odd how you boast about soloing perilous but cant time a run and jump.

Ive said time and time again, if you cant dodge the demon commander without using abilities then its an issue with your gameplay, not game design.

[Drasca]

Odd how you boast about soloing perilous but cant time a run and jump.

Ive said time and time again, if you cant dodge the demon commander without using abilities then its an issue with your gameplay, not game design.

 

 

 You're basically saying that you have personal difficulty with reaction times yet somehow it's the games fault.

 

I don't support Trickshaw, he's the one that needs to L2P here, but it is partially the game's fault when it comes to off-host multiplayer. The rubberbanding / collision / incorrect positioning synchronizations issues need to be fixed and do affect the ability to play this boss fight successfully. The game design isn't intended to be bad, but MP is executed poorly, making any evasion tactics far less reliable off-host.

 

If you never play off-host, you never experience the  issues making positional evasion (including abilities) unreliable.

 

 

I tried dodging the Demon Commander with evade... and it actually worked. Key was, it was the only time that I've ever fought one as the host. I always Quick Match, never bothering to host myself, and none of the anti-DC techniques I read about ever worked for me. This was the only time they did, and I'm pretty sure it was because I wasn't getting lag.

 

Try Leaping shot dodging the Demon Commander. It works great, especially when jumping off a railing for added giggles and trick shots. Very funny to do as the DC wants to eat your face, but you toss 12 arrows in his.

[Saboteur-6]

That's why the safest and most reliable hard counters are the ones that are the most lag forgiving. Shield Wall, Fade Step, Fade Cloak, Walking Fortress, Barrier, Leaping Shot, etc.
I have zero luck with sprint bunny hopping so I don't even consider that as an option.

Also my response was directed at Rolenka, not Trickshaw.

[Drasca]

I have zero luck with sprint bunny hopping so I don't even consider that as an option.

Also my response was directed at Rolenka, not Trickshot.

 

Yep, sprint dodging is a last resort while on the way to statues, heights and corners. It is definitely not reliable. Yeah, Rolenka too for L2P.

[Shadohz]

That's how boogiemen do you. They jump from behind and strangle people in their sleep.

Boogeymen are just urban legends created by parents to scare little kids into eating their vegetables.

OT: TL;DR nerf DC. Opinion based on playing with a scrub kit. OHK skills should not occur that often. See previous comments on other threads about said opinion.

OP: l2panyway.

[Rolenka]

Thinking something is too hard and should be easier is a perfectly valid opinion.

 

A good way to disagree with that opinion would be to say, "Gosh, I just don't feel the same way about it that you do. I have experienced it differently." Or even, "I enjoy the challenge this presents. I think if it were easier, it would be too easy."

 

Saying someone's feelings about the experience are wrong because they suck brings the discussion nowhere.

[IanLai]

Then dont play in laggy games... ?

lol not play in laggy game

why just say don't play internet game

 

do you know you can still get hit off host even you are not feeling rubber band

you can still get hit when you fade step

the timing for DC need to be precise to avoid

 

expert player won't tell others l2p

they tell ppl how to play .

[Saboteur-6]

Except you didn't say it that way Rolenka, you said, "The green smoke is too brief before the uppercut for a person to see it and react. Maybe it's because I'm 32, but it does not seem like a realistic reaction time. I am terrible at Call of Duty. I did great at ME3MP, though, and I don't think DAI should require faster reflexes than that."

You asserted your opinion as fact and then hinged that opinion on the belief that "I was good at one thing so I should be good at another. If I'm not, that's the game's fault and needs to be changed."

I'm not interested in debating opinions since it's pretty damn pointless. You're entitled to your opinion though you ARE wrong in the way you framed your statement as infallible fact (hence the "It's too fast to react to.") Plenty of people react just fine to it. Do some struggle with it? Sure. Though others have worked to find counters. Also, I mean I don't know why you think because you were good at one game in a different genre, you'd automatically be good at another just because both games were from the same developer. That doesn't even make sense.

I'm not trying to single you out but I loathe discussion that places all the fault and blame on the game in order to justify nerfs. It's common in too many game communities. "Oh wow this is actually challenging and requires me to get better at the game. Nerf that ****!"

If we played a game of basketball and you were too weak to make a successful 3 pointer, what do you expect people to do, move the basket closer? Do you petition to shorten 3 point lines? Or, do you practice harder, build up some strength, and try again?

[IanLai]

That's why the safest and most reliable hard counters are the ones that are the most lag forgiving. Shield Wall, Fade Step, Fade Cloak, Walking Fortress, Barrier, Leaping Shot, etc.
I have zero luck with sprint bunny hopping so I don't even consider that as an option.

Also my response was directed at Rolenka, not Trickshaw.

sprint also not always work for me 2 , may be 40% work

leaping shot 70-80

fade cloak 30% ? seldom use

fade step 80

shield wall walking fortress 100% sure

[Saboteur-6]

Fade Cloak is a 100% hard counter. Without question.

[IanLai]

Fade Cloak is a 100% hard counter. Without question.

i think so . i only use it on AW so can't say anything when barrier on

1sec i-frame something ?

[Saboteur-6]

Fade Cloak is an intangible invulnerability spell that lasts for several seconds. Plenty of time for the uppercut to whiff.

[Rolenka]

 I mean I don't know why you think because you were good at one game in a different genre, you'd automatically be good at another just because both games were from the same developer. That doesn't even make sense.

 

Points taken, but what I was saying there was that having done well in ME3MP, a straight-up action shooter, I would not expect my reflexes to be what fails me in a slower-paced MMO-style action RPG. That, to me, suggests there is something wrong with the game, yes. There is a challenge in it that is out-of-place.

 

It's like if, somewhere in the Harry Potter books, JK Rowling had written an explicit slash fiction chapter, then went on with the story like nothing happened. OK, there may be a book somewhere where that chapter belongs, but this book isn't it. She's breaking the contract with the reader.

 

It seems to me that the discussion seems to go around the fact that he can be beaten. Very little is done to establish what exactly is expected of players to make that happen reliably, and whether that is a reasonable expectation or not has gone completely unconsidered.

[Wraggly]

I think DC could be improved.  Living in Aus, when someone says to me, "don't play a laggy game", that really means, "play as host and sometimes not even then".  I suspect the fact his hit box is so low was unintended, maybe it'll be left, maybe it won't, but I think it would end a lot of the "just run and jump" conversations around the place.

 

I'd like the tell to be more obvious, when surrounded by fear demons doing their BS all over my screen it can become hard to spot the lightly coloured puff of smoke that happens to be the same colour as every other possible object next to me.  Hell lets talk fear demons, they stagger you, they slow you, they make dodging the DC with fade step, evade, leaping shot and combat roll impossible to begin with.  What about those other bastards who pop out the ground, they knock you down, then they scream and knock you down, and at some point during DC pops up and your just dead.  How about when any other demon around can hit you and bring you out of a run, and block movement, or prevent a jump.

 

Don't make it weaker, but make it more obvious, ESPECIALLY to allies, maybe make it take a bit longer.  Maybe if your already knocked down he does less damage so the chain KDs demons are capable of are less BS. Have dodge abilities work better with lag, so that players can always dodge away rather than getting rubber banded back into the DC.  Have players able to move through each other, so some git running into me doesn't stop me dodging the DC.  Maybe have panic break when I get hit by something (like it does for mobs), maybe make the panic's duration a touch shorter.

 

I'm sure there's a few QoL improvements that can be made to this fight.  Hell when half this stuff is a bit nicer, I'd be down for MORE difficulty.  Hell just let us poor laggy bastards react in some fashion.

[Saboteur-6]

See that's at least a reasonable talking point: is the difficulty spike in wave 5 Demons too severe and incongruent when compared with the rest of the game? That's room for debate at least.

I don't think so since there's some other problematic OHK enemy types too. I'm biased though because personally I enjoy super difficult games (Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls) and play games like Dragon Age on Nightmare from start.

[actionhero112]

I wipe quite frequently against the DC but the DC isn't hard. I'm just never host or I'm too lazy to start running after he slips back into the ground after his ranged attack.

 

Plus what's the actual consequence for screwing up the fight? like 150 less gold on threatening? If that? 

 

Please. That's not even a slap on the wrist. 

[Kjubaran]

Demon Commander is so strong because demons are weak overall because they dont have much blocks and knockouts like other factions.

 

This Flow Chart really helped me, after i remember it, Demon commander is no problem.

 

 

If you want run away from his Teleport attack, dont run away, just JUMP away at right moment. Stairs are great for it.

Also if you drink Spirit tonic, he does only 40% of dmg to your and nearby teamates with his projectilec and teleport atack = super easy now

 

Credits to: http://www.gamezone....nder-guide-jrcq