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Am I the only one who prefered samson?


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#26
Kuvira

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I liked Samson, and he had a perfectly fair point. The Chantry turns them into a bunch of junkies, then provides no structure to help them deal with it, especially after they've served their 'usefulness'. They gas them up on 'service' and 'faith' and then leave them to die like dogs once they're too broken to carry out whatever harebrained scheme The Chantry's come up with. They literally created a ticking timebomb, something like this was inevitable.

 

Frankly, Thedas is lucky that Cory is the one that got to them. He gave them direction and purpose. If they'd gone for general mayhem like their brothers in the Hinterlands, well it would have been nasty. 

 

Add in Samson's humanity being actively stamped out by his superiors...I was not that mad once I brought him in. He has to pay the price, ofc, but I was not that outraged. Cullen, imo, was being a bit of a hypocrite. He has a big support base checking in on him and cheering him on. If he'd been left to stew in his on rage during his withdrawl...


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#27
raging_monkey

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Considering the Jowan situation I think fereldan would not take it lightly either if the same thing happened not as much as the kirkwall circle though. I just question the chantry and seekers thinking with the templars. Lets make a order of warriors who are drugged addicts, who are also jailers and forced to fight in our "holy" wars. Oh we also use this to control them and if any of them get funny ideas we throw them on the street with the addiction. There is no way this is not going to bite us in the ass!  <_<

well to be fair jow was a BM so theirs that reason

#28
Bigdoser

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I liked Samson, and he had a perfectly fair point. The Chantry turns them into a bunch of junkies, then provides no structure to help them deal with it, especially after they've served their 'usefulness'. They gas them up on 'service' and 'faith' and then leave them to die like dogs once they're too broken to carry out whatever harebrained scheme The Chantry's come up with. They literally created a ticking timebomb, something like this was inevitable.

 

Frankly, Thedas is lucky that Cory is the one that got to them. He gave them direction and purpose. If they'd gone for general mayhem like their brothers in the Hinterlands, well it would have been nasty. 

 

Add in Samson's humanity being actively stamped out by his superiors...I was not that mad once I brought him in. He has to pay the price, ofc, but I was not that outraged. Cullen, imo, was being a bit of a hypocrite. He has a big support base checking in on him and cheering him on. If he'd been left to stew in his on rage during his withdrawl...

I agree when you give samson to him he believe's he can help him during the judgement I could not even muster hate all I had was pity that's it. 

 

 

well to be fair jow was a BM so theirs that reason

 

Of course, I am talking about if the relationship was found out lets say he was not a blood mage and they found out he was in a relationship with a sister? I suspect she would be kicked out of the chantry and Jowan would of been reprimanded. Hence you have an option during the origin that he knows that it is forbidden to be in such a relationship. Hence why samson was secretly delivering love letters. 

 

I am thinking within the context that we do not yet know he is a BM which is a more bigger deal anyway. 



#29
Master Warder Z_

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Normally I'd agree but the Kirkwall circle was abhorrent.


Its the notable exception to the rule.

For many things.

#30
raging_monkey

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Its the notable exception to the rule.
For many things.

i blame DA2 for the skewered views on both sides

#31
Master Warder Z_

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The Templar Order wasn't betrayed by the Chantry in the regard many seem to paint the relationship as.

It was betrayed but not over lyrium or service.

Honestly you figure Samson would at least mention the actual betrayal.

#32
Above Good and Evil

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Technically we have no idea who Maddox's lover was. Even if Jowan wasn't a mage Lilly would have gotten in trouble since they had a vow of chastity. If Maddox was just exchanging kissy love letters with a village girl or another mage it'd probably be seen as just juvenile.

Also, the ONLY reason i feel sorry for Samson was because he came from the doghole that is Kirkwall's circle. If he came from Ferelden or Ostwick and turned to the Elder One I would lose any sympathy for him.

#33
SgtSteel91

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Eh, I like Samson and the Red Templars as the nemesis cause they flow better with the general collapse of the old Chantry and the eventual rise of the Reformed Chantry under Cassandra or the New Chantry under Leliana (more so with Leliana). They also seem more intimidating, a strong military order corrupted and powered up by Red Lyrium, compared to Venatori, who are just Mages (they don't even use Blood Magic). Just look at In Your Heart Shall Burn and see how much more difficult it is to fight Red Templars than Venatori.



#34
raging_monkey

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Technically we have no idea who Maddox's lover was. Even if Jowan wasn't a mage Lilly would have gotten in trouble since they had a vow of chastity. If Maddox was just exchanging kissy love letters with a village girl or another mage it'd probably be seen as just juvenile.
Also, the ONLY reason i feel sorry for Samson was because he came from the doghole that is Kirkwall's circle. If he came from Ferelden or Ostwick and turned to the Elder One I would lose any sympathy for him.

i have a theory that samson was maddox's lover

Eh, I like Samson and the Red Templars as the nemesis cause they flow better with the general collapse of the old Chantry and the eventual rise of the Reformed Chantry under Cassandra or the New Chantry under Leliana (more so with Leliana). They also seem more intimidating, a strong military order corrupted and powered up by Red Lyrium, compared to Venatori, who are just Mages (they don't even use Blood Magic). Just look at In Your Heart Shall Burn and see how much more difficult it is to fight Red Templars than Venatori.

it does add a sense of difficulty and a sense of fallen glory

The Templar Order wasn't betrayed by the Chantry in the regard many seem to paint the relationship as.
It was betrayed but not over lyrium or service.
Honestly you figure Samson would at least mention the actual betrayal.

eh demands of plot... and most fans dont read the books or codices so it works

#35
SgtSteel91

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most fans dont read the books

 

That's just good role-playing.

 

My character wasn't at White Spire during Asunder or at Orlais during The Masked Empire so they wouldn't know how those events went specifically.



#36
raging_monkey

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That's just good role-playing.
 
My character wasn't at White Spire during Asunder or at Orlais during The Masked Empire so they wouldn't know how those events went specifically.

possibly but i was refering to casuals and newcomers

#37
TheLastArchivist

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Why are people comparing Calpernia with Samson as though one has to be better than the other? 

 

They come from the same basic context and are moved by similar motivations: ensure their people survive the mage-templar war.

Calpernia is as bad as Samson in the sense that she reduces herself to be Corypheus's mindless tool in the end (to become his Vessel).

 

And as much as people criticize Samson for leading the templars to their doom with red lyrium, we can scarcely imagine what Calpernia ordered the mages to do in the name of Corypheus - probably submit to the Venatori, who'd force demonic possession in them to gain their obedience - because we never actually SEE IT.

 

Calpernia seems to be this clever nemesis who didn't take a stupid decision towards her people (such as Samson did) because the players have NO IDEA what was the fate of mages other than to side with the Venatori. The only clue you have as to what became to either side of the war is if you side with the mages. You KNOW for sure that Samson's choices were lame because you get to JUDGE HIM. You get to hear his confession. And then you learn that feeding templars with red lyrium was a choice based on loose criteria. Samson could have made better choices, but no. He went with the lamest. 

 

But do you get to hear what Calpernia did to the mages? Do you hear her justify the crimes she commited - and which we never hear of, anyway - and how did she make the choice to side with Corypehus? NO.

 

So people speculate she is a cleverer nemesis, a much worthier foe because in ONE cutscene AND ONLY ONE, her motivations sound much more solid.

 

 

I mean, what the hell is this line of thinking? Didn't Calpernia make the rebel mages side with the Venatori? Didn't Fiona make the same mistake before Calpernia by siding with Alexius? Who honestly believes the mages are now better off under her leadership than the Red Templars under Samson? We don't know what the Venatori made them do. We don't know if they are forced into ritualistic sacrifices to summon demons. They're probably all enslaved and being forced to use blood magic to carry their orders. 

 

I don't see how that's better than what Samson did to his people. It's as demoralizing and as desperate a measure as the one he made. Calpernia and Samson's decision-making processes were the same. She knew trusting Corypheus was a poor idea. This was the guy who opened the Veil and brought darkspawn and the taint to the world. This was the guy who sacrificed thousands of slaves, like she once was, to do that. Hell, he would've sacrificed her if she had been in Tevinter fourteen hundred years ago. And she is fully aware of that. How can siding with him be such a grand idea? 

 

The same goes for Samson. He knows red lyrium destroyed Meredith. And yet, he embraces it, under the illusion of Corypheus's promise of power.

 

 

 

One villain made decisions as lame as the other did. There's no better or worse villain. They're two sides of the same coin.


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#38
Bigdoser

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After reading that legend of kirkwall that is a fair argument. 



#39
In Exile

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I was very underwhelmed by Calpurnia after all the love she received on this forum.

#40
llandwynwyn

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No, and he was more emotional to someone that helped him in DA2.

Calpernia in comparison was just there.

#41
PorcelynDoll

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I like both Calpernia and Samson but I feel I have more connection with Samson. I liked him in DA2 and got him his job back. :o  Maybe I am responsible for what happens to him.


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#42
Hazegurl

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Liking Calpernia has nothing at all to do with thinking she is right or just. At least not for me. I honestly feel Cory's development was lacking and I appreciate that you gain more of a insight into him through Calpernia. The way I see it, it was Fiona following Alexius that lead the mages astray, Calpernia most likely just used the mage resources she received from Cory. From what I gather, most of those who followed Calpernia were slaves she freed and I can understand why they would follow her and fight for her, even if I disagree with her reasons for turning to Cory. I also liked how Cory had to almost dance around her to keep her hooked into following him. I also like that she can be reasoned with and it makes far more sense for her to be the Vessel if Cory is to chose one.

 

I just had no love for Samson and didn't care about his downfall. He was a mind slave to Cory without magic even having to be involved. He makes Cory look even more comical because I'm supposed to now believe that this junkie is a logical choice to gain the knowledge of Mythal. 



#43
Lulupab

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I just had no love for Samson and didn't care about his downfall. He was a mind slave to Cory without magic even having to be involved. He makes Cory look even more comical because I'm supposed to now believe that this junkie is a logical choice to gain the knowledge of Mythal. 

 

But that's the thing, Samson helps Cory completely willingly. He was kicked out of Templars for transporting love letters for mages (WTF MEREDITH) and he was lyrium starved for it. He gave his life and risked it for the order and was kicked out because he knew his duty was to protect mages not jail them. his punishment was painful withdrawal and begging in the street and losing every bit of dignity he had so he had every right to enter a "F U WORLD" mode. The Chantry and Templars destroyed him while he dedicated his life for them. Also aren't all templars "junkies? Why is he any worse? 

 

So no OP, you are definitely not alone in liking Samson. He is a good villain, not all of them need ulterior motive.


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#44
Hazegurl

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If you're going to follow some messed up looking wannabe God at least be somewhat smart about it.  But no, he was a mustache twirling idiot doing what he had been doing since Kirkwall. I didn't wanna hear it as Hawke, much less as the IQ. Yeah, the world is crappy and unfair boo hoo for Samson. Calpernia at least wanted to use the Cory thing to fight to save Tevinter. I don't even know if I can call it totally ill thought out as Cory seems to express a desire to see Tevinter better, even if we have no idea what that "better" is. We do know that he's able to see the potential in others and give them a chance, even if it is to serve him and he plans on betraying them.  Perhaps that is a glimpse that maybe the country wouldn't be that bad off with him in charge.

 

And yeah The Templars are junkies and I wouldn't trust any of them with holding the Well of Sorrows either. 



#45
Catche Jagger

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Yeah, he's good. Just not as good as Calpurnia. He's got a sad backstory, sure, but that doesn't make up for his general lack of motivation do any of the things he does. It's okay for a villian to do bad things because "They're fed up with the world" but it's not as effective as them having some sort of personal motivation.

If you were looking to see this story as one that shows how dangerous religious belief can be, then yes, Sampson is the better villain. In this scenario, both him and Corypheus can be viewed as people who were led astray by religious belief and ended up on a path of destruction.

Calpurnia's story, however, has more to do with delivering a more sympathetic look at your enemies. Calpurnia is portrayed as more sympathetic than Sampson and her personal quest does more to emphasize Corypheus's human side.

You may want some nice parallels about faith and its failures, but I prefer the element of seeing the humanity in your enemies.
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#46
stop_him

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I personally felt that samson was the representation of a failed institution and a failed system and fits the game sense of exploring faith mages and templars used as slaves watchdogs and fights in the chantry wars aka exalted marches. Like Cory samson was abandoned left broken with the lyrium addiction burning away his mind who knows how many templars are in this situation? 

 

Plus lets not forget the seekers knowingly allowing it as well since they know how to get templar abilities without the lyrium issue hell by the end of inquisition I can't see the lyrium anything other than as a method of control. 

 

Cory and Samson both left and broken by their religious insituitions/gods. Hell someone in youtube said it best. Going by Cory memory stones in the temple of Dumat,I think he pitied both Samson and Calpernia hence why they are his champions because they have been also been used discarded and have been living a lie. 

 

Two youtubers said this in samson's judgement video. 

 

I can't help but agree with the guy. When you've been a slave your entire life the best you could do is to go out in a blaze of glory or live in comfortable lie. Why don't we get to judge the Chantry itself? It is single-handedly responsible for almost every conflict in the game that doesn't involve Corypheus.

 

pity Samson but do not feel his actions were justified. However, he is the perfect example of how badly the Chantry has been handling Templars. Samson is a victim too, I suppose. They make it seem like taking lyrium and putting up with the addiction is a "noble sacrifice" but addiction is never a good thing. It makes the Templars unstable and easy to manipulate. The Red Templars are the product of the Chantry's failure as it was all too easy for Corypheus to take advantage of their addiction to lyrium.
 



 

 

Can't change font its me talking now end of comments
 
Hell most people in the judgement video say the pity him more than anything it does not excuse him of the red templars actions but I can understand WHY he did what he did. 

 

I can see this perspective. Very interesting. I agree with your comments on the Chantry.



#47
Mikka-chan

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I liked Calpurnia better, but I thought Samson could hold his side of the story rather well.  I didn't prefer him, but I did like him.  As much as one likes a jerk.

 

Also, I love the song the bard sings about him.  So plus to that.



#48
Lulupab

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Cory could chose any mage for the job. I'm sure hundreds of Venatori zealots would line up. Why did it have to be Calpernia whom Cory has to fool into submission?



#49
Catche Jagger

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Cory could chose any mage for the job. I'm sure hundreds of Venatori zealots would line up. Why did it have to be Calpernia whom Cory has to fool into submission?


Probably some combination of skill and apparent devotion to the cause. Are you trying to make a point with this question?

#50
Lulupab

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Probably some combination of skill and apparent devotion to the cause. Are you trying to make a point with this question?

 

Just doesn't make sense the effort Cory puts into controlling her while there are those who worship him already. As a freed slave Calpernia cannot be more skilled than a Magister.