262 réponses à ce sujet

[Mushashi7]

Vivienne is most certainly NOT to be the new Divine. What a circus! It will be status qvo with the only difference that mages will have a bit more luxury. Some of them, naturally - the upper class and influental.

Cassandra wants to be a copy of Cole in politics but still strict and conservative in reality. She is a warrior and should stay as one.

Leliana is the only person with millions of considerations and an extremely big heart. That is if you were man enough to stop her and soften her in due time.


Your can chose between: A snob, a warrior or a considerate person.

[Kinsz]

Vivienne is most certainly NOT to be the new Divine. What a circus! It will be status qvo with the only difference that mages will have a bit more luxury. Some of them, naturally - the upper class and influental.

Cassandra wants to be a copy of Cole in politics but still strict and conservative in reality. She is a warrior and should stay as one.

Leliana is the only person with millions of considerations and an extremely big heart. That is if you were man enough to stop her and soften her in due time.


Your can chose between: A snob, a warrior or a considerate person.

Or we could say that this is just your opinion on the matter ? and not in fact a...........fact? your claim that Leliana is the only one with a big heart ( considerate ) on this list is simply your bias talking. last i checked you could be a warrior and still be compassionate.

[Mushashi7]

Or we could say that this is just your opinion on the matter ? and not in fact a...........fact? your claim that Leliana is the only one with a big heart ( considerate ) on this is simply your bias talking.

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No, I do think the others have hearts.

Cassandra is very dedicated and full of thoughts and constantly meassures and evaluates the idea, the time she lives in and the options and chances she has. But she is out of a warrior family. That's what you will get. A warrior. Unless the position as divine suddenly changes her and unleash a tremendous compassion? Is that how she will be?
When daily life comes around, wil,Cassandra have her mind more on sharing with the poor, or the reforming idea? Can she have both? Maybe.

Vivienne is hunting power and influence. She is a shark. Vivienne is compassioned as well. She likes Vivienne...

My preferred constellation would be Leliana as Devine, and Cassandra and Vivienne as left and right hands? You will get three different types. The ingredients would fit in perfectly. Next question is if this would be stable? Would Vivienne be satisfied and become loyal to other than her self? Not likely.

You can expect loyalty from Cassandra, but not Vivienne. She likes the game. That's what she lives for.

Leliana is the only one you can soften to be a considerate and still determined leader. She is a bard as well as a warrior. A foot in both camps. There you have the justice. The Divine Justinia. The one who holds the scales in her arms.

[MisterJB]

Vivienne is most certainly NOT to be the new Divine. What a circus! It will be status qvo with the only difference that mages will have a bit more luxury. Some of them, naturally - the upper class and influental.

Cassandra wants to be a copy of Cole in politics but still strict and conservative in reality. She is a warrior and should stay as one.

Leliana is the only person with millions of considerations and an extremely big heart. That is if you were man enough to stop her and soften her in due time.


Your can chose between: A snob, a warrior or a considerate person.

Mother Teresa was a great woman but I still wouldn't want her in charge of a world power.

[The Loyal Nub]

Mother Teresa was a great woman but I still wouldn't want her in charge of a world power.

 

Exactly and even softened Leliana is no Mother Theresa. She's still capable of ruthlessness to get what she wants or she wouldn't be a good spymaster. There's honestly not that much difference in background between her or Cassandra.

[Mushashi7]

Well, with Leliana i feel more comfort. I know she has a heart that works as a door that swings both ways.

In my world the heart comes before power and money. At any time, at any costs.

 

What a terrible thing to say, right?

[Kinsz]

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No, I do think the others have hearts.

Cassandra is very dedicated and full of thoughts and constantly meassures and evaluates the idea, the time she lives in and the options and chances she has. But she is out of a warrior family. That's what you will get. A warrior. Unless the position as divine suddenly changes her and unleash a tremendous compassion? Is that how she will be?
When daily life comes around, wil,Cassandra have her mind more on sharing with the poor, or the reforming idea? Can she have both? Maybe.

Vivienne is hunting power and influence. She is a shark. Vivienne is compassioned as well. She likes Vivienne...

My preferred constellation would be Leliana as Devine, and Cassandra and Vivienne as left and right hands? You will get three different types. The ingredients would fit in perfectly. Next question is if this would be stable? Would Vivienne be satisfied and become loyal to other than her self? Not likely.

You can expect loyalty from Cassandra, but not Vivienne. She likes the game. That's what she lives for.

Leliana is the only one you can soften to be a considerate and still determined leader. She is a bard as well as a warrior. A foot in both camps. There you have the justice. The Divine Justinia. The one who holds the scales in her arms.

Im not questioning her being kinder than Vivienne , my disagreement is with you claiming she is so than Cassandra , absolutely nothing in game supports that claim of yours , nothing says that Cassandra is less dedicated to helping the poor than Leliana that's just your headcannon.

[Lulupab]

Im not questioning her being kinder than Vivienne , my disagreement is with you claiming she is so than Cassandra , absolutely nothing in game supports that claim of yours , nothing says that Cassandra is less dedicated to helping the poor than Leliana that just your headcannon.

 

But there is more evidence on Leliana's side. There is nothing on Cassandra that she will help the poor.

 

"rededicating chantry to principle of chatiry" and allowing other races to join the chantry is one of main goals of Leliana while there is nothing indicating Cassandra cares for the poor nor she intends to help them. So claiming Cassandra helps the poor is as much as headcanon as claiming she doesn't.

[Mushashi7]

Im not questioning her being kinder than Vivienne , my disagreement is with you claiming she is so than Cassandra , absolutely nothing in game supports that claim of yours , nothing says that Cassandra is less dedicated to helping the poor than Leliana that's just your headcannon.

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Leliana's heart burns for the chantry. She is a strong believer.

Cassandra's heart burns for the chantry. She is a strong believer.

But Cassandra left the chantry. She also left the templars. She leaves when things doesn't fit her opinions.

That is one of the the main reasons why I prefer Leliana.I haven't yet seen Leliana run away.
Leliana is not nobility. This is also a reason. I have this idea that nobles have a hard time understanding common peoples lives and needs.

If recall correctly I heard Cassandra express wonder infront of Sera how others may see her because she is born as a noble, and  that she had never really thought about this. Not being able to put your self in other peoples place makes a very bad leader. Unless you only have the goal of gaining power and earn money that is.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Leliana goes a bit too far for my liking. In terms of ideology, sure, I agree with her -- but it seems weird that she can just make huge sweeping changes like that and get everyone to be friends without a hitch. It feels too ... fairy tale and I have trouble believing that they would really let it stick. Plus, after everything that happened to and with her, I'm not sure softening her will stick, either.

 

Leliana's personality shifts between games confuse me. In DAO, it seemed like she was trying to put her shady past behind her and consistently gave approval for altruistic, idealistic actions. Then in DAI, she often has the more ruthless or violent suggestions at the war table - I get that she's having a religious crisis, but it still feels like she's reverting to being someone she didn't want to be any more. She seems to be moving back in the other direction if you prevent her from killing Natalie, but the war table suggestions don't change after that from what I can tell. She still suggested poisoning a few nobles in the operation to bring some mercenaries onside, at least.

 

As for her changes if she's made Divine, one thing to keep in mind is that the "old order" has already fallen apart by the time she would assume the office. It's not as if she's going around dissolving functioning Circles or firing Templars. Restoring the Circles in any form might actually be trickier than the path Leliana takes, because the mages have probably scattered across Thedas and some of them might not want to go back to the Circles even if a more benevolent regime is promised.

[Kinsz]

But there is more evidence on Leliana's side. There is nothing on Cassandra that she will help the poor.

 

"rededicating chantry to principle of chatiry" and allowing other races to join the chantry is one of main goals of Leliana while there is nothing indicating Cassandra cares for the poor nor she intends to help them. So claiming Cassandra helps the poor is as much as headcanon as claiming she doesn't.

Knowing that Cassandra is a great person doesnt require a headcannon of any sort , its fairly easy to come to such conclusion just from talking to her throughout the game and seeing how she views the world. so again nope Leliana is not a better person.

[Mushashi7]

Leliana's personality shifts between games confuse me. In DAO, it seemed like she was trying to put her shady past behind her and consistently gave approval for altruistic, idealistic actions. Then in DAI, she often has the more ruthless or violent suggestions at the war table - I get that she's having a religious crisis, but it still feels like she's reverting to being someone she didn't want to be any more. She seems to be moving back in the other direction if you prevent her from killing Natalie, but the war table suggestions don't change after that from what I can tell. She still suggested poisoning a few nobles in the operation to bring some mercenaries onside, at least.

 

As for her changes if she's made Divine, one thing to keep in mind is that the "old order" has already fallen apart by the time she would assume the office. It's not as if she's going around dissolving functioning Circles or firing Templars. Restoring the Circles in any form might actually be trickier than the path Leliana takes, because the mages have probably scattered across Thedas and some of them might not want to go back to the Circles even if a more benevolent regime is promised.

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You can't change Vivienne. She is out of the picture.
And Cassandra? Are you able to influence her and ensure she will be a good leader in the same way as Leliana? Can you soften Cassandra?

If you don't soften Leliana I wouldn't like as the new Divine. Not a chance.

But the very fine thing about Leliana is that YOU can make her a good leader. It is YOUR doing that gives her the tools to be the right person.

Leliana is actually YOU. If you care and have the time that is...

[Lulupab]

Knowing that Cassandra is a great person doesnt require a headcannon of any sort , its fairly easy to come to such conclusion just from talking to her throughout the game and seeing how she views the world. so again nope Leliana is not a better person.

 

Yet you lack anything to show it other than "she is nice". As stated by other here she is of noble birth and never seen what commoners went through, specially elves. She simply left when it was convenient instead of helping. She left Nevarra, she left Templars etc...

 

She is not a bad person, no not all. She is strong and inspiring in all good ways possible, but if by better we mean caring for everyone on Thedas, Leliana comes on top. I mean go and find a quote like the one in my signature that Cassandra says. All she says when she learns she can become divine is fixing Templars, Seekers and Chantry itself. The people who need help are not on her "must do" list. heck they might not be in any list.

[MisterJB]

Exactly and even softened Leliana is no Mother Theresa. She's still capable of ruthlessness to get what she wants or she wouldn't be a good spymaster. There's honestly not that much difference in background between her or Cassandra.

Being ruthless enough to get what she wants is no comfort if what the Divine wants is likely to create more problems than it fixes.

 

[Kinsz]

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Leliana's heart burn for the chantry. She is a strong believer.

Cassandra's heart burns for the chantry. She is a strong believer.

But Cassandra left the chantry. She also left the templars. She leaves when things doesn't fit her opinions.

That is one of the the main reasons why I prefer Leliana.I haven't yet seen Leliana run away.
Leliana is not nobility. This is also a reason. I have this idea that nobles have a hard time understanding common peoples lives and needs.

If recall correctly I heard Cassandra express wonder infront of Sera how others may see her because she is born as a noble, and  that she had never really thought about this. Not being able to put your self in other peoples place makes a very bad leader. Unless you only have the goal of gaining power and earn money that is.

that means nothing , just because she wasnt born poor doesnt mean she would end up being a bad leader , she sees the world enough to know that not everyone lives in luxury.

 

This is a woman who knows what it means to fight for the little people , a hero in many people's eyes , watch Dawn of the seeker or read up about it.

[Kinsz]

Yet you lack anything to show it other than "she is nice". As stated by other here she is of noble birth and never seen what commoners went through, specially elves. She simply left when it was convenient instead of helping. She left Nevarra, she left Templars etc...

 

She is not a bad person, no not all. She is strong and inspiring in all good ways possible, but if by better we mean caring for everyone on Thedas, Leliana comes on top. I mean go and find a quote like the one in my signature that Cassandra says. All she says when she learns she can become divine is fixing Templars, Seekers and Chantry itself. The people who need help are not on her "must do" list. heck they might not be in any list.

Anyone can see what the elves are going through in the DA world , doesnt take a genius, clearly you and i havent played the same game if you need me to " show " you that Cassandra is in fact a compassionate person , which as a result makes this debate a pointless waste of time.

[Lulupab]

Anyone can see what the elves are going through in the DA world , doesnt take a genius, clearly you and i havent played the same game if you need me to " show " you that Cassandra is in fact a compassionate person , which as a result makes this debate a pointless waste of time.

 

Lol, you are deliberately doing this and frankly this is getting annoying. For the 3rd time, yes she is a compassionate person but she is not going to use this virtue to rule when she becomes divine. As I said she doesn't make a single hint nor the epilogue talks about what she does to people who need help. To her restoring the chantry, Templars and Seekers take priority over everything else and she has no time for commoners.

 

I asked to show me she says anything regarding helping the helpless, I didn't tell you to "show" me she is compassionate. 

[Kinsz]

Lol, you are deliberately doing this and frankly this is getting annoying. For the 3rd time, yes she is a compassionate person but she is not going to use this virtue to rule when she becomes divine. As I said she doesn't make a single hint nor the epilogue talks about what she does to people who need help. To her restoring the chantry, Templars and Seekers take priority over everything else and she has no time for commoners.

I could honestly careless whether you are annoyed or not, you are free to not reply if you feel that way. 

 

The epilogue is too short for me judge her actions as Divine but common sense dictates that she will in fact help people in the long run , given her personality , in fact there is a chat with her in game in which she mentions how the chantry should dedicate its resources in helping the poor rather than spending money on the Divine's clothes  , ill try to find it on youtube in a sec.

[Lulupab]

I could honestly careless whether you are annoyed or not, you are free to not reply if you feel that way. 

 

The epilogue is too short for me judge her actions as Divine but common sense dictates that she will in fact help people in the long run , given her personality , in fact there is a chat with her in game in which she mentions how the chantry should dedicate its resources in helping the poor rather than spending money on the Divine's clothes  , ill try to find it on youtube in a sec.

 

Changing the chantry itself from root to be dedicated to help the poor and helpless >>>> Anything that Cassandra does regarding same matter. Its pretty much a fact and I'm sorry you can't deal with the fact that Leliana is the better divine for helping the people in need.

[Kinsz]

Changing the chantry itself from root to be dedicated to help the poor and helpless >>>> Anything that Cassandra does regarding same matter. Its pretty much a fact and I'm sorry you can't deal with the fact that Leliana is the better divine for helping the people in need.

Actually its not a problem for me at all i like Leliana i just am not biased enough to think that she farts unicorns and tht everyone else pale in comparison , she has many qualities but being a better human being than Cassandra isnt one of them , the latter at least never lies or cheat to get her way , she along with Josephine have the purest heart among the women in DA I fact, now you deal with that.

[Mushashi7]

Exactly and even softened Leliana is no Mother Theresa. She's still capable of ruthlessness to get what she wants or she wouldn't be a good spymaster. There's honestly not that much difference in background between her or Cassandra.

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Did you use time on Leliana?
Did you intervene and ensured the was able to get past her worried mind? Did you do anyhting to lift the burden of her shoulders, calm her and let her find peace?

This is what Leliana is about in the choice of the new Divine.

If you do her quest 'The Left Hand of the Divine' you will get around a lot of Leliana's way of thinking and feelings. You will also have the options to give her the right tools to be the perfect divine - if you made the right choices already i Haven (with the termination of the traitor agent).

Leliana seeks to do the right things. She is in deep doubts about her self and needs guidance. But who is going to give it to her?
Only the Inquisitor has this opportunity. That means you.

I don't think many players of this game grabs this oportunity that early. There are so many thing to attend to. And this little scene with Leliana will probably seem unimportant at this time. But it has a huge impact on the options later on near the end of the game where you chose the new divine.

Leliana seeks guidance

 

 

A world for everyone

 

[Colonelkillabee]

If your idea of kind is getting people's hopes up with idealistic bull that sets them up for disaster later, then yea, Lels is kind. Kinda stupid.

[Kinsz]

Here we go start at 2:00 of this video , this tells me that Cassandra very much plans on helping the little people during her reign as Divine

 

[Lulupab]

Actually its not a problem for me at all i like Leliana i just am not biased enough to think that she farts unicorns and tht everyone else pale in comparison , she has many qualities but being a better human being than Cassandra isnt one of them , the latter at least never lies or cheat to get her way , she along with Josephine have the purest heart among the women in DA I fact, now you deal with that.

 

Doesn't matter, she ends up helping many more people that Cassandra. I just watched the epilogues for recalling things better, helping the poor and helpless is a major goals of Leliana as its said pretty early in the epilogue while there is no mention of such a thing in Cassandra's epilogues which is quite safe to claim helping the helpless is not one of her major goals.

 

Josephine and Leliana are very close and they respect each other's jobs. Josephine, like many people knows that people who stand against the good changes for Thedas such as helping the helpless will not go away if you ask nicely. When you say "Leliana cheats and lies to get her way" surely by her way you mean she will help those people with determination and remove those who will oppose this changes for their own personal gain. She will bear it on her conscience know that she actually helped.

 

 

Here we go start at 2:00 of this video , this tells me that Cassandra very much plans on helping the little people during her reign as Divine

 

 

I actually did remember and saw it before you posting this but it does pale in comparison to what Leliana does, as I said earlier:

 

Changing the chantry itself from root to be dedicated to help the poor and helpless >>>> Anything that Cassandra does regarding same matter.

[Lulupab]

If your idea of kind is getting people's hopes up with idealistic bull that sets them up for disaster later, then yea, Lels is kind. Kinda stupid.

 

Or not. I'd like a piece of this omniscient knowledge that you have about future of Leliana. 

 

As I have pointed out before Leliana is very similar to Queen Elizabeth Tudor and very much like her she removed all who opposed her with intrigues and secrets and assassinations, keeping the death limited to leaders of sects rising against her. She helped the middle class and poor, dispelled religious extremism and turned England into a super power which lasts to this very day and no one could do anything about her changes nor it ever backfired for centuries until this very day. England owes her a lot.

 

Like Elizabeth It will probably end up like this, Leliana has full support of common people which are vast majority, they stop joining any sect or cult opposing Leliana and they actually pick up pitchforks against them. The opposition will stop and like Elizabeth her changes become the very root of Thedas and how it will continue for centuries.