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[Kinsz]

Doesn't matter, she ends up helping many more people that Cassandra. I just watched the epilogues for recalling things better, helping the poor and helpless is a major goals of Leliana as its said pretty early in the epilogue while there is no mention of such a thing in Cassandra's epilogues which is quite safe to claim helping the helpless is not one of her major goals.

 

Josephine and Leliana are very close and they respect each other's jobs. Josephine, like many people knows that people who stand against the good changes for Thedas such as helping the helpless will not go away if you ask nicely. When you say "Leliana cheats and lies to get her way" surely by her way you mean she will help those people with determination and remove those who will oppose this changes for their own personal gain. She will bear it on her conscience know that she actually helped.

 

 

 

I actually did remember and saw it before you posting this but it does pale in comparison to what Leliana does, as I said earlier:

 

Changing the chantry itself from root to be dedicated to help the poor and helpless >>>> Anything that Cassandra does regarding same matter.

Nope i ddidnt mean that she lied and cheat in order to fight off the opposition in the epilogue , this was a remark about most of her life really , manipulations , lies , cheating you name it for her own personal gain ( mostly ) has been a reoccuring theme with her , Cassandra on the other hand not so much , the hero of orlais , a true knight not a hint of corruption about her , Leliana could only dream of having a heart as pure as she does

 

Yes in that 1 min epilogue they have different priorities , perhaps Cassandra thinks the chantry should be shaken up first before they could help people ? ever thought of that ?

anyways you asked me for proof that she does indeed have this sort of belief instead of just giving you my headcannon so i did. judging by the video she cares about the poor and there is no doubt that she will help them once the chantry mess gets sorted out. Ill take her words over yours anyday ( as you like you to say ).

[Colonelkillabee]

It's very simple, my elven friend Mages are going nowhere, mages are people. People are corrupt, and people take advantage. When mages get too comfortable with their freedom, someone's going to use it for malicious intent. And as soon as one important person is killed by a bloodmage, controlled by a bloodmage... It's all over. Hell, just a mage might do.

 

Mage vs Non mage conflict will never end, not as long as the veil is up. And not as long as they are the minority.

[Lulupab]

It's very simple, my elven friend Mages are going nowhere, mages are people. People are corrupt, and people take advantage. When mages get too comfortable with their freedom, someone's going to use it for malicious intent. And as soon as one important person is killed by a bloodmage, controlled by a bloodmage... It's all over. Hell, just a mage might do.

 

Mage vs Non mage conflict will never end, not as long as the veil is up. And not as long as they are the minority.

 

That's why Leliana reforms seekers regardless of Cassandra. Given her large reach with his agents and spies and if you add the seekers to it she is more than capable of stopping them and/or making it obvious only a handful of mages are at fault not all of them and they are not a reason to rebuke all mages into submission.

[Lulupab]

Nope i ddidnt mean that she lied and cheat in order to fight off the opposition in the epilogue , this was a remark about most of her life really , manipulations , lies , cheating you name it for her own personal gain ( mostly ) has been a reoccuring theme with her , Cassandra on the other hand not so much , the hero of orlais , a true knight not a hint of corruption about her , Leliana could only dream of having a heart as pure as she does

 

Yes in that 1 min epilogue they have different priorities , perhaps Cassandra thinks the chantry should be shaken up first before they could help people ? ever thought of that ?

anyways you asked me for proof that she does indeed have this sort of belief instead of just giving you my headcannon so i did. judging by the video she cares about the poor and there is no doubt that she will help them once the chantry mess gets sorted out. Ill take her words over yours anyday ( as you like you to say ).

 

She cannot be a compassionate person without caring about them, doesn't change the fact that Leliana cares more and is willing to make them a priority and FYI Leliana shakes up the chantry to help the helpless. 

[Mushashi7]

Here we go start at 2:00 of this video , this tells me that Cassandra very much plans on helping the little people during her reign as Divine

 

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I have great confidence in Cassandra as leader of an army. She is perfect for this. Almost too perfect.
But yes, I like Cassandra. A lot even. I try to make her stay in the Inquisition, and not leave to lead the seekers. I want her here by my side.

I know Cassandra has a good heart. She means well. That is also why I think she is the perfect warrior on the battlefield. She will not kill ruthless without mercy.
Or will she? Is she a virtual killer machine?

I remember when Cassandra went to Caer Oswick to face seeker Lucius. There wasn't the slightest attempt to avoid conflict. No negotiations for peace or chance for surrender. Lucius had to die. Period! Lucius had to disappear from this earth. No, he was to be desintegrated!

You can not run a chantry like this. A chantry is not an army. It is a place where we forgive each other. A place where we try to understand each other. A place of love. It is not a place for weapons and war.

When thing starts to get on the edge Cassandra not having the means to create a peaceful solution. She is not the one who tries to calm things down.

Every person has a place that fits. I just don't think Cassandra's place is as the leader of compassion, love and empathy.

[Colonelkillabee]

You have far greater faith in her intel than I do. Realistically no one can monitor people like that. What if I'm doing it myself and I just decide to go Anders? It really is impossible for anyone to monitor a whole populace like this.

[Kinsz]

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I have great confidence in Cassandra as leader of an army. She is perfect for this. Almost too perfect.
But yes, I like Cassandra. A lot even. I try to make her stay in the Inquisition, and not leave to lead the seekers. I want her here by my side.

I know Cassandra has a good heart. She means well. That is also why I think she is the perfect warrior on the battlefield. She will not kill ruthless without mercy.
Or will she? Is she a virtual killer machine?

I remember when Cassandra went to Caer Oswick to face seeker Lucius. There wasn't the slightest attempt to avoid conflict. No negotiations for peace or chance for surrender. Lucius had to die. Period! Lucius had to disappear from this earth. No, he was to be desintegrated!

You can not run a chantry like this. A chantry is not an army. It is a place where we forgive each other. A place where we try to understand each other. A place of love. It is not a place for weapons and war.

Negotiating with that version of Lucius is about the same as negotiating with Corypheus , he was far too gone to be reasoned with so he had to be eliminated.

[Lulupab]

You have far greater faith in her intel than I do. Realistically no one can monitor people like that. What if I'm doing it myself and I just decide to go Anders? It really is impossible for anyone to monitor a whole populace like this.

 

Its impossible with Cassandra and Vivienne as well, Anders is a proof of that. He managed to do what he did in a city with the highest Templar numbers and power. So claiming Cassandra and Vivienne can control this very situation better than Leliana is logical fallacy.

 

She tracked every F'ing move of Corypheus except when she got soft with her agents and told them to pull back when they started disappearing when Corypheus was marching on Haven. She is one of the major players in defeating Corypheus and that going soft taught her a very good lesson.

 

The point is, she can help people and she does help people. Disasters will happen and people will go corrupt regardless of pretty much anything, but if anyone can show people that pride corrupts everyone not only mages and not all of them should pay the price of crimes of few its Leliana, in this aspect she is several leagues better than Cassandra and Vivienne.

[Kinsz]

She cannot be a compassionate person without caring about them, doesn't change the fact that Leliana cares more and is willing to make them a priority and FYI Leliana shakes up the chantry to help the helpless. 

Leliana doesnt have the Circle ,and the templars to deal with so it would naturally take her a shorter time to shake things up than it would Cassandra , again common sense.

No Leliana doesnt care more , its just a matter of planning here , its like two couples who love kids for example , one couple would rather wait until they are financially comfortable before getting pregnant so they know they can properly support the kid while the other just want their baby right this moment , the fact the former want to wait a little doesnt mean they love kids any less.

[Colonelkillabee]

Cassandra and Vivienne have the circles fully in place. There is no logical fallacy really. What's easier, monitoring people who are potentially dangerous as they are outside, or keeping your eggs in one basket?

 

And having this system in place puts everyone else at ease. Whereas if mages just start going apeshit under Leliana, people will panic and blame them for being too lenient. Then the circles come back anyway.

[Lulupab]

Leliana doesnt have the Circle ,and the templars to deal with so it would naturally take her a shorter time to shake things up than it would Cassandra , again common sense.

No Leliana doesnt care more , its just a matter of planning here , its like two couples who love kids for example , one couple would rather wait until they are financially comfortable before getting pregnant so they know they can properly support the kid while the other just want their baby right this moment , the fact the former want to wait a little doesnt mean they love kids any less.

 

What a bad reference lmao, Cassandra gets puppies and unicorns while Leliana has to deal with zealots lining up against her. The fact that she finds time to  help the helpless speaks volumes and its one of the first things she does . This is common sense.

 

Cassandra is like "lets reforms this right here, then right there. The maker and providence will take care of the rest" Hence if you side with mages they will always fight among each other with Cassandra and she is incapable to deal with them.

[Lulupab]

Cassandra and Vivienne have the circles fully in place. There is no logical fallacy really. What's easier, monitoring people who are potentially dangerous as they are outside, or keeping your eggs in one basket?

 

And having this system in place puts everyone else at ease. Whereas if mages just start going apeshit under Leliana, people will panic and blame them for being too lenient. Then the circles come back anyway.

 

Yet all the disasters show otherwise, also the major corruption in the policing force is nothing to look away from as well. To think after what happened a few reforms will fix anything is indeed a fallacy because these reforms happened before and didn't do anything. Mages were usually awarded with more freedoms when they helped with blights or similar matters only for their freedom to be taken away later and age-old problems starting again.

 

The epilogue says its working and it talks about several months after the formation of college. I think we both know that the majority of mages just want to live in harmony because they know what happens to them if they don't. Leliana's epilogue specifically mentions they are finding ways to fix age-old problems and we don't know what exactly they are only the fact that they are working greatly.

[Kinsz]

What a bad reference lmao, Cassandra gets puppies and unicorns while Leliana has to deal with zealots lining up against her. The fact that she finds time to  help the helpless speaks and its one of the first things she does speaks volumes. This is common sense.

 

Cassandra is like "lets reforms this right here, then right there. The maker and providence will take care of the rest" Hence if you side with mages they will always fight among each other with Cassandra and she is incapable to deal with them.

What are you even talking about ...........................

 

And as far as im concerned im siding with the templars in my endings and Fiona is dead  so i have no worries about the so called mage in fighting

btw it sounds like you are saying that Cassandra would make a bad Divine ahah where is that quote from anyways ?

[Mushashi7]

Cassandra and Vivienne have the circles fully in place. There is no logical fallacy really. What's easier, monitoring people who are potentially dangerous as they are outside, or keeping your eggs in one basket?

 

And having this system in place puts everyone else at ease. Whereas if mages just start going apeshit under Leliana, people will panic and blame them for being too lenient. Then the circles come back anyway.

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I can understand that your perfect solution is a world where military force is the first priority to ensure everything is working out well?
Security?

I can relate to that somehow. Law an order is a must.

The only question I have left is: Is it still the majority who shall decide how the minority lives? Under which rules? There has to be differences and classes?

There are those who are lucky on the right side, and on the other side those who are supposed to obey and follow the rules made by those who has the upper hand? The ones who are not so lucky?

Where is the love and understanding it that? Where is the respect and accept of those who are different? Where is the ability to give space and share?

It is in general so that there is no need for law enforcement if everyone had a fair share of money, possibilities and influence. And especially used a lot more time telling each other we are good enough.

Why does a thief steal?
Why do brothers and sister argue about inheritance?
Why do people kill their ex-partner?

Because they have the feeling that they are not good enough. They don't feel equal.

So, the basic problem is to let everyone feel they are.
Do we need weapons and law enforcement for this?
Is a warrior the best option to get rid of bad feelings?

Leliana wants everyone to be equal: A world for everyone.
With this action alone she tells all people they are good enough. That they are equal, and there are no means to start a fight or kill each other.

But as long as there are some who doesn't have faith in his fellow beings this is not possible. I does demand a great deal of everyone. Doesn't it? Especially curage and faith.

[Lulupab]

What are you even talking about ...........................

 

And as far as im concerned im siding with the templars in my endings and Fiona is dead  so i have no worries about the so called mage in fighting

 

Doesn't change the fact about her incompetence and inevitable return of age-old problems.

 

Cassandra doesn't get 1/10 of resistance Lelinana gets and you seem to forget about this, conveniently.

[Kinsz]

Yet all the disasters show otherwise, also the major corruption in the policing force is nothing to look away from as well. To think after what happened a few reforms will fix anything is indeed a fallacy because these reforms happened before and didn't do anything. Mages were usually awarded with more freedoms when they helped with blights or similar matters only for their freedom to be taken away later and age-old problems starting again.

 

The epilogue says its working and it talks about several months after the formation of college. I think we both know that the majority of mages just want to live in harmony because they know what happens to them if they don't. Leliana's epilogue specifically mentions they are finding ways to fix age-old problems and we don't know what exactly they are only the fact that they are working greatly.

Leliana's epilogue states that college of enchanters is getting unprecedented acceptance .......at the moment , you claim that Cassandra's reforms face the chance of  not working in the long runs what tells you that Leliana's would ?

[Kinsz]

Doesn't change the fact about her incompetence and inevitable return of age-old problems.

 

Cassandra doesn't get 1/10 of resistance Lelinana gets and you seem to forget about this, conveniently.

You were the same person claiming the other day that Cassandra had people rise against her and that she was forced to put them down , make up your mind.

 

anyways every divine will have to deal with problems regarding their reforms in the future believing otherwise is living in la la land.

[Lulupab]

Leliana's epilogue states that college of enchanters is getting unprecedented acceptance .......at the moment , you claim that Cassandra's reforms face the chance of  not working in the long runs what tells you that Leliana's would ?

 

yes because circles were reformed before and it didn't work. College is new and its working, also Morrigan says the mages form the circle in months to come and mages gather to solve age-old problems and its working for now. Duh we don't know the future, specially in this case this future since its new.

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

 

.
I can understand that your perfect solution is a world where military force is the first priority to ensure everything is working out well?
Security?

I can relate to that somehow. Law an order is a must.

The only question I have left is: Is it still the majority who shall decides how the minority lives? Under which rules? There has to be differences and classes?

There are those who are lucky on the right side, and on the other side those who are supposed to obey and follow the rules made by those who has the upper hand? The ones who are not so lucky?

Where is the love and understanding it that? Where is the respect and accept of those who are different? Where is the ability to give space and share?

First of all, the epilogue can say what it will, but there's still dlc to come, there's still more games to come. All of these endings will more or less add up to the same thing.

 

Second of all, don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say anything was perfect. But just because a system has problems, doesn't mean getting rid of it entirely is the answer. Anyone that owns a PC and has built it themselves knows this.

 

Third, yes, the majority will always rule the minority, sorry to say. Because they're the ones who generally hold all the power. Unless you're powerful enough to rule the majority as the minority via Tevinter.

 

Love and understanding? Respect? ROFLMFAO

 

That's not how the world works. Hence why Lel's reforms are doomed to fail, even moreso than Vivs in my opinion. And security always comes before love and understanding and blah. At least in my book.

[Kinsz]

yes because circles were reformed before and it didn't work. College is new and its working, also Morrigan says the mages form the circle in months to come and mages gather to solve age-old problems and its working for now. Duh we don't know the future, specially in this case this future since its new.

Well a sensible response from you finally , as long as you know that it wouldnt be easy for any of them then i have nothing to add , more importantly this isnt going anywhere there is no chance in hell that youll convince me that Leliana is a better Divine for Thedas than Cassandra is and i cant convince you of the opposite nor do i care to , so well agree to disagree and call it a day   

[Lulupab]

You were the same person claiming the other day that Cassandra had people rise against her and that she was forced to put them down , make up your mind.

 

anyways every divine will have to deal with problems regarding their reforms in the future believing otherwise is living in la la land.

 

Your memory does you no credit. It was Vivienne who faces  rebellions and I talked about her not Cassandra.

 

So? Leliana faces bigger resistance, not only she beats it she find time at the very beginning to help the helpless while Cassandra is in her la land thinking her mere reforms and leaving everything else at the maker's hand will solve everything. She is quite superstitious about the maker.

 

So yes all divines will face problems but its irrelevant in this topic. Cassandra who faces close to none doesn't do half of what Leliana does for good people in need and Thedas.

[Lulupab]

Well a sensible response from you finally , as long as you know that it wouldnt be easy for any of them then i have nothing to add , more importantly this isnt going anywhere there is no chance in hell that youll convince me that Leliana is a better Divine for Thedas than Cassandra is and i cant convince you of the opposite nor do i care to , so well agree to disagree and call it a day 

 

I didn't try to convince you Leliana is a better divine because in this case "better" is subjective. I merely stated the obvious that Leliana helps the helpless and poor better than Cassandra which is an established fact and in this case its quite objective based on what we know she will do. 

[Mushashi7]

Third, yes, the majority will always rule the minority, sorry to say. Because they're the ones who generally hold all the power. Unless you're powerful enough to rule the majority as the minority via Tevinter.

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 And that is how you think it should stay?

We can't do better than that?

That is the dilemma this discussion leads us to. The dilemma of how things should or can be.

With Cassandra and Vivienne you get no real changes. But with Leliana you get something everyone hopes for. Something completely different. Something that erases the classes and leaves you with...just you. Not better or worse.

[Kinsz]

Your memory does you no credit. It was Vivienne who faces  rebellions and I talked about her not Cassandra.

 

So? Leliana faces bigger resistance, not only she beats it she find time at the very beginning to help the helpless while Cassandra is in her la land thinking her mere reforms and leaving everything else at the maker's hand will solve everything. She is quite superstitious about the maker.

 

So yes all divines will face problems but its irrelevant in this topic. Cassandra who faces close to none doesn't do half of what Leliana does for good people in need and Thedas.

Im pretty sure you said Cassandra , i believe and your exact quote was " if she doesnt like the Inquisitor " .......so yea nice try.

 

she only faced some chantry folks , lets not make it sound bigger than it was and would you stop making things up ? where in the epilogue does it say that Cassandra just reformed then sat on her ass to leave everything in the maker's hands ?

 

Cassandra reforming the Circles , the templar order is a bigger undertaking than leliana sending her people to kill some chantry folks , unless you believe that those reforms do not take serious time and dedication that is

[Lulupab]

First of all, the epilogue can say what it will, but there's still dlc to come, there's still more games to come. All of these endings will more or less add up to the same thing.

 

Second of all, don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say anything was perfect. But just because a system has problems, doesn't mean getting rid of it entirely is the answer. Anyone that owns a PC and has built it themselves knows this.

 

Third, yes, the majority will always rule the minority, sorry to say. Because they're the ones who generally hold all the power. Unless you're powerful enough to rule the majority as the minority via Tevinter.

 

Love and understanding? Respect? ROFLMFAO

 

That's not how the world works. Hence why Lel's reforms are doomed to fail, even moreso than Vivs in my opinion. And security always comes before love and understanding and blah. At least in my book.

 

So you have nothing solid enough to indicate circle > college. Noted.

 

Mages will still be ruled by the majority. The can't become nobles or hold lands etc... and they are still pretty much under the control mundanes. They only govern themselves in their own institution and outside of that they are pretty much ruled. I don't know why you even mentioned this, its quite obvious.

 

This is pretty much a core sentence regarding how America works "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." You are being monitored and cautions are taken but no liberty is taken away. That's how the most diverse population of 400+ million live in same country.

 

So no, as I mentioned Elizabeth simply because Leliana will become the favorite of commoners very quickly there is nothing doomed about it. The tarts who will try to find armies to oppose her will find none from commoners aka vast majority and will find themselves under the scrutiny of common people