262 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

.
 And that is how you think it should stay?

We can't do better than that?

No, because that's how people are realistically. As long as mages exist, there will be mage on non mage conflict. Simply because they are demon magnets. Only time this wasn't the case was when the veil wasn't a thing.

 

So instead of trying to change people, the only option is to make compromise. A circle must exist, but that doesn't mean every mage should be forced to remain in them. However, all mages should be monitored in some way. And the circle can be a place to educate them, while housing those that are too dangerous or weak to control their power.

 

But what Lels does is too idealistic.

[Kinsz]

.
 And that is how you think it should stay?

We can't do better than that?

That is the dilemma this discussion leads us to. The dilemma of how things should or can be.

With Cassandra and Vivienne you get no real changes. But with Leliana you get something everyone hopes for. Something completely different. Something that erases the classes and leaves you with...just you. Not better or worse.

I personally believe that the circles could be reformed and be rededicated to their original purpose,  as well as the templar order, under a good chantry , whether Cassandra will be able to assure that the chantry plays nice in the long run remains to be seen but there is no guarantee in any endings despite Leliana fanatics claiming otherwise.

its pretty much a lets wait and see game at the moment until DA 4.

[Lulupab]

Im pretty sure you said Cassandra , i believe and your exact quote was " if she doesnt like the Inquisitor " .......so yea nice try.

 

she only faced some chantry folks , lets not make it sound bigger than it was and would you stop making things up ? where in the epilogue does it say that Cassandra just reformed then sat on her ass to leave everything in the maker's hands ?

 

Cassandra reforming the Circles , the templar order is a bigger undertaking than leliana sending her people to kill some chantry folks , unless you believe that those reforms do not take serious time and dedication that is

 

Yeah nice try, that was the other member named "thesuperdarkone2" not me.

 

"Blood runs through the grand cathredal". Again nice try

 

Reforms happened before as I said and you know for a fact that she can only create stability if you side with Templars. Mages will increase in number and fight regardless and she will sit and leave everything at the hand of maker. "Reforming" is a big undertaking? More like writing rules and a piece of paper and giving the orders for it. It might be an undertaking but I don't see this effort you are talking about. Not to mention unlike Leliana she NEEDS the inquisition for it.

[Colonelkillabee]

So you have nothing solid enough to indicate circle > college. Noted.

 

Mages will still be ruled by the majority. The can't become nobles or hold lands etc... and they are still pretty much under the control mundanes. They only govern themselves in their own institution and outside of that they are pretty much ruled. I don't know why you even mentioned this, its quite obvious.

 

This is pretty much a core sentence regarding how America works "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." You are being monitored and cautions are taken but no liberty is taken away. That's how the most diverse population of 400+ million live in same country.

 

So no, as I mentioned Elizabeth simply because Leliana will become the favorite of commoners very quickly there is nothing doomed about it. The tarts who will try to find armies to oppose her will find none from commoners aka vast majority and will find themselves under the scrutiny of common people

 

 

Lord, first of all, you have nothing solid to say a college is better than a circle. Why a circle can't also be a college, I have no idea. Second, our quote from benjamin franklin is in reference to a far away body ruling over them and taking advantage of them to make up for their own financial failings at home, not controlling parts of their own home grown populace that pose a threat to peace and safety of everyone else.

 

Cute little quotes should be taken in context, and not applied willy nilly like a heavy handed fat man with a bottle of salad dressing.

 

Nothing about her favor will mean a thing when people start getting murdered by magic and she has nothing to fall on. A circle is inevitable.

[Kinsz]

Yeah nice try, that was the other member named "thesuperdarkone2" not me.

 

"Blood runs through the grand cathredal". Again nice try

 

Reforms happened before as I said and you know for a fact that she can only create stability if you side with Templars. Mages will increase in number and fight regardless and she will sit and leave everything at the hand of maker. "Reforming" is a big undertaking? More like writing rules and a piece of paper and giving the orders for it, close to zero personal effort.

Nope you backed that claim but since i cant prove it as i dont remember what thread it was on , i'll leave it be

 

how does blood runs through the grand cathedral disprove my point ?   arguing for the sake of arguing i forget you are good at that

 

Perhaps for you reforms is about sitting down and writing on pieces of paper but Cassandra is very much hands on and she will be in the thick of things. as i said you arent convincing anyone that Leliana is/will be a better Divine ..............i know i know you arent trying to do that ................except you are.

[Lulupab]

Lord, first of all, you have nothing solid to say a college is better than a circle. Why a circle can't also be a college, I have no idea. Second, our quote from benjamin franklin is in reference to a far away body ruling over them and taking advantage of them to make up for their own financial failings at homee, not controlling parts of their own home grown populace that pose a threat to peace and safety of everyone else.

 

Cute little quotes should be taken in context, and not applies willy nilly like a heavy handed fat man with a bottle of salad dressing.

 

Nothing about her favor will mean a thing when people start getting murdered by magic and she has nothing to fall on. A circle is inevitable.

 

Doesn't change the fact that liberty is preserved regardless of anything. Every single Muslims is not held responsible for crimes of few.

 

Not if people see mages are people (which they already do if you side with mages which increases the chance of Leliana becoming divine) and they shouldn't hold mages responsible for a single mage. The people witnessed mages saving them from gravest dangers of magic. So at least add "In my opinion" to the inevitably you talk about because that's what it is. Also people don't forget getting out of hopeless poverty, murder and rape.

[Kinsz]

No, because that's how people are realistically. As long as mages exist, there will be mage on non mage conflict. Simply because they are demon magnets. Only time this wasn't the case was when the veil wasn't a thing.

 

So instead of trying to change people, the only option is to make compromise. A circle must exist, but that doesn't mean every mage should be forced to remain in them. However, all mages should be monitored in some way. And the circle can be a place to educate them, while housing those that are too dangerous or weak to control their power.

 

But what Lels does is too idealistic.

I agree , while mages arent all evil , most arent , the fact that there is the risk they could lose themselves to demons and become abominations is why the circles and templars should remain , those who prove themselves can leave the circles later on , thats a win/win for everyone involved imo.

[Colonelkillabee]

Doesn't change the fact that liberty is preserved regardless of anything. Every single Muslims is not held responsible for crimes of few.

 

Not if people see mages are people (which they already do if you side with mages which increases the chance of Leliana becoming divine) and they shouldn't hold mages responsible for a single mage. The people witnessed mages saving them from gravest dangers of magic. So at least add "In my opinion" to the inevitably you talk about because that's what it is. Also people don't forget getting out of hopeless poverty, murder and rape.

I'm not going to get into the muslim topic because you won't like what I have to say about Islam. Lets leave that there.

 

And anyway, the difference is mages are born attracting trouble whether they like it or not. Sometimes, they can't even control when a demon gets their scent. Look at Connor for instance. His father almost dying was caused by someone else, but if your parents death or near death is all it takes for children to attract demons...

 

Them being people does absolutely nothing to this problem.

[Lulupab]

Nope you backed that claim but since i cant prove it as i dont remember what thread it was on , i'll leave it be

 

how does blood runs through the grand cathedral disprove my point ?   arguing for the sake of arguing i forget you are good at that

 

Perhaps for you reforms is about sitting down and writing on pieces of paper but Cassandra is very much hands on and she will be in the thick of things. as i said you arent convincing anyone that Leliana is/will be a better Divine ..............i know i know you arent trying to do that ................except you are.

 

Number of arguments: 0
Understanding of basic terminology: 0
Constructing feedback: 0

 

I also like how you spam smiling/happy emoticons to pretend you are being "not serious" while in fact make no argument.

 

Again I will sum up this argument. All divines will probably end up in same way as the devs confirmed they have laid the mage vs Templar argument to rest. One thing however is pretty much fact, Leliana helps the helpless and poor better than the others and as your waifu said perfectly:

 

Deal. With. It.

[Lulupab]

I'm not going to get into the muslim topic because you won't like what I have to say about Islam. Lets leave that there.

 

And anyway, the difference is mages are born attracting trouble whether they like it or not. Sometimes, they can't even control when a demon gets their scent. Look at Connor for instance. His father almost dying was caused by someone else, but if your parents death or near death is all it takes for children to attract demons...

 

Them being people does absolutely nothing to this problem.

 

Of course people realizing they are people like anyone else helps the problem. A Templar for example realizes he doesn't get punishment for crimes of his people, and by recognizing the plight of mages he will not crack down on mages harder because of crimes of a few, same applies to rest of Thedas. The Chantry has scared the people and now that they have seen it was greatly exaggerated its the perfect time for a change. 

[Br3admax]

Loving the dick measuring going on here. Who cares, these reforms last only until BioWare wants to write anther story.

[MisterJB]

Where is the love and understanding it that? Where is the respect and accept of those who are different? Where is the ability to give space and share?

Disney Channel?

[raging_monkey]

Disney Channel?

i was assuming 4kids lol

[Lulupab]

Disney Channel?

 

I hear the Qun have good security over liberty society. Let us all become Viddathari already. Who needs idealism and acceptance for who you are anyway, right? What matters is our paranoia are fed and everyone live happy. 

 

Oh and long live big brother of course in case I forget and get executed for it. You know, for security purposes.

[Kinsz]

Number of arguments: 0
Understanding of basic terminology: 0
Constructing feedback: 0

 

I also like how you spam smiling/happy emoticons to pretend you are being "not serious" while in fact make no argument.

 

Again I will sum up this argument. All divines will probably end up in same way as the devs confirmed they have laid the mage vs Templar argument to rest. One thing however is pretty much fact, Leliana helps the helpless and poor better than the others and as your waifu said perfectly:

 

Deal. With. It.

Again proclaiming your opinion as fact, another thing you are quite good at .

 

Why would i be " serious " ? as far as im concerned this isnt a life or death matter , we are discussing a GAME ( im actually laughing btw ) , i dont know about you but i have hard time getting worked up about a video game , could  just  be me however.

 

Devs confirmed that they are done with Chantry stuff huh ? now im sure you could provide a quote backing up that claim ?

 

ouch the " deal with it " card , im seriously hurt now , how would i ever recover from this? anyways i recall agreeing that Leliana does indeed prioritize doing charity while Cassandra has not done so yet , my original argument was that it is something that matters to her ( Cassandra ) which you claimed i needed to prove ( and i did by posting a video).   ( actually winking )

[LobselVith8]

Two things bother me with having her as the Divine.

One is that, even softened, Leliana can be a bit...murder-y. I cant help but think that "Everyone should be allowed into the chantry!" can slip into "Everyone should be Andrastian!" very easily. I can see her, with the best of intentions (When the Chant spreads to the 4 corners of the earth, the Maker returns!), forcing the chantry upon everyone.

I was never under that impression. Leliana accepts it if the protagonist doesn't believe in the Maker. Leliana, unlike Cassandra, doesn't even suggest that Lavellan should follow the Maker. Cassandra also tells Solas he should consider following the Maker.

The second concern i have with her is that, while i support the idea of freedom for mages, i do think that mages need to have some kind of required education, just to keep from accidentally blowing up themselves and half of a small town.

The College can teach them. Mages can be properly instructed on how to use their powers without being subjugated by the Chantry or their templars.

[MisterJB]

.
 And that is how you think it should stay?

We can't do better than that?

That is the dilemma this discussion leads us to. The dilemma of how things should or can be.

With Cassandra and Vivienne you get no real changes. But with Leliana you get something everyone hopes for. Something completely different. Something that erases the classes and leaves you with...just you. Not better or worse.

Yes, we can be better. But only to a certain point.

We can and should make it so mages aren't afraid to be in a Circle but also make sure they have a healthy respect of Templars and their sword so they'll stay in line.

We can and should encourage beneficial uses of magic but also not overly depend on it so mages don't achieve a disproportional influence in society.

Because if you, as a person or nation, believe that what is really needed is for people to just be excellent to each other in order for everyone to be happy and equal, you are going to get taken advantage of by someone else with less scruples.

Be better, yes. But make sure some ideas are set in stone such as "Ours is a society founded by non-mages who fought against the tyranny of magic. They are and must always be by non-mages, for non-mages."

[Lulupab]

Again proclaiming your opinion as fact, another thing you are quite good at .

 

Why would i be " serious " ? as far as im concerned this isnt a life or death matter , we are discussing a GAME ( im actually laughing btw ) , i dont know about you but i have hard time getting worked up about a video game , could  just  be me however.

 

Devs confirmed that they are done with Chantry stuff huh ? now im sure you could provide a quote backing up that claim ?

 

ouch the " deal with it " card , im seriously hurt now , how would i ever recover from this? anyways i recall agreeing that Leliana does indeed prioritize doing charity while Cassandra has not done so yet , my original argument was that it is something that matters to her ( Cassandra ) which you claimed i needed to prove ( and i did by posting a video).   ( actually winking )

 

You mean the first three times when you said "Ohh but but but she is compassionate". Or "nothing you say will convince me because she is my waifu" For a game you are being too serious already.

 

No one cares about false promises when she actually doesn't do anything about the helpless. Just because she says she will but there is no mention of her doing anything, She doing anything about helpless will remain a headcanon for now.    

(actually smiling)

 

It has been said many places even prior to release of DA:I that the Mage Templar issue will be concluded in DA:I and future DA games will be about other topics. I think its in Gaider's blog along with Cameron Lee Interviews. Nothing about chantry though, I never said anything about chantry yet somehow you brought it up.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I hear the Qun have good security over liberty society. Let us all become Viddathari already. Who needs idealism and acceptance for who you are anyway, right? What matters is our paranoia are fed and everyone live happy. 

 

Oh and long live big brother of course in case I forget and get executed for it. You know, for security purposes.

Every society sacrifices liberty for secuirty and stability.Pretty much im sure you don't care what your goverment does as long you have food.

 

In fact all that bs about liberty and human rights are thrown into garbage can if they aren't practical.

[Colonelkillabee]

Of course people realizing they are people like anyone else helps the problem.

I was talking about the problem of demons being attracted to mages like catnip.

And let's not go to the extremes of the Qunari. You know better than that.

All I'm saying is that some form of a circle is necessary. Even if you think mages should be free, there should be a place for mages that are dangerous to themselves and everyone else. Ones that are too weak to protect themselves if a demon were to try to take them over. That's just common sense. A Circle can be both a college and somewhere that can provide safety for those mages, and for those that they put in danger.

[Lulupab]

Every society sacrifices liberty for secuirty and stability.Pretty much im sure you don't care what your goverment does as long you have food.

 

In fact all tall bs about liberty and human rights are thrown into garbage can if they aren't practical.

 

I suggest go read about countries such as Switzerland, Netherlands and Finland Austria etc... or change your thought process because you do realize everyone know about your extreme values? We can always keep the sacrificed liberty to a minimum.

[Kinsz]

You mean the first three times when you said "Ohh but but but she is compassionate". Or "nothing you say will convince me because she is my waifu" For a game you are being too serious already.

 

No one cares about false promises when she actually doesn't do anything about the helpless. Just because she says she will but there is no mention of her doing anything, She doing anything about helpless will remain a headcanon for now.    

(actually smiling)

 

It has been said many places even prior to release of DA:I that the Mage Templar issue will be concluded in DA:I and future DA games will be about other topics. I think its in Gaider's blog along with Cameron Lee Interviews. 

I said she is compassionate and have proven it ( at your request ) , i didnt really need to do so because anyone with half a brain could deduct that from talking to her throughout the game .......now i'd love to see you show me how that translates to me being " serious ".

 

Understanding people , those with common sense will get that in her epilogue her reforms must be the first priority then she will build from that.

 

I know that the mage-templar war is over for now , i didnt claim otherwise , it doesnt mean that the devs are done with all chantry related things though and you cant talk Chantry without talking about the Divine , so unless you can prove that they are done with the Chantry as a whole claiming that the epilogues will remained untouched throughout the DLCs and the next game is jumping the gun.

[Lulupab]

I was talking about the problem of demons being attracted to mages like catnip.

And let's not go to the extremes of the Qunari. You know better than that.

All I'm saying is that some form of a circle is necessary. Even if you think mages should be free, there should be a place for mages that are dangerous to themselves and everyone else. Ones that are too weak to protect themselves if a demon were to try to take them over. That's just common sense. A Circle can be both a college and somewhere that can provide safety for those mages, and for those that they put in danger.

 

No, there are several codex entries indicating abominations are a rarity. Kirkwall was an exception. This issue is rectified in DA:I as there is only one abomination in future redcliff.

 

What is "extreme" here? Once you enter the province of security over the most basic rights then its over. It doesn't matter how much water is higher than your head, whether its an inch or a mile you still cannot breathe.

 

And what gives you the idea that mages who value their lives will not fight these like anyone else? If anything everyone should be convinced mages want to live safely like everyone else and they will help them in every way they can but without getting stuck in a sodding tower for life. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I suggest go read about countries such as Switzerland, Netherlands and Finland Austria etc... or change your thought process because you do realize everyone know about your extreme values? We can always keep the sacrificed liberty to a minimum.

And you think those societies would care about your freedom if they tought you were threat (like mages) to their country or society please...

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm driving, so I can't answer in full, but it doesn't matter how rare it is, if I tell you there's a monster behind one of three doors, or one of 10, you're not going to react very well. If your mother told you that your sister can possibly turn into a monster, you're not going to react very well.