262 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Yeah, the manifesto left at towns across Ferelden and Orlais by the mages, meant to draw sympathy for the mages, is not heavily biased propaganda. Sure.

And again, like 49% of the mages voted against the war.

[Colonelkillabee]

The only solid information is quote "Mages will govern themselves" and " Its working". BTW mages govern themselves with Cassandra as well which is why I think at least this factor will become canon. Vivienne personally governs the circles but I doubt it will last, that's too much power and responsibility for one person. I think mages governing themselves will become canon and they will retcon Vivienne. But that's just my view of things.

Well that's too vague to go off of anything, good or bad really. It's also not saying much that in the short term, something is working. Especially when the Inquisition is here with its absurd political power, temporary political power to make practically anything work when the divine is on good terms with it.

 

Which is why I stand where I do on the issue.

[Lulupab]

Yeah, the manifesto left at towns across Ferelden and Orlais by the mages, meant to draw sympathy for the mages, is not heavily biased propaganda. Sure.

And again, like 49% of the mages voted against the war.

 

BS

 

If anything in Asunder and DA:I its made clear Libertarians were rapidly gaining followers to the point of reaching Aequitarians numbers which was always the highest. The Loyalists were on a rapid decline as well. The other fraternities are too little to consider.  So the fraternity with the highest numbers along with the 2nd one which is close in numbers to the 1st agreed to rebellion.

 

[Lulupab]

Well that's too vague to go off of anything, good or bad really. It's also not saying much that in the short term, something is working. Especially when the Inquisition is here with its absurd political power, temporary political power to make practically anything work when the divine is on good terms with it.

 

Which is why I stand where I do on the issue.

 

There is also another matter which needs to be considered. Cassandra and Vivienne hardly depend on Inquisition to the point that they completely fail with it (high disapproval)

 

Leliana on the other hand does her reforms all by herself and after that declares support for the Inquisition. I don't know why the devs have made it like this but it might be something to consider.

[MisterJB]

Yeah, 51% is a majority.

[Colonelkillabee]

There is also another matter which needs to be considered. Cassandra and Vivienne hardly depend on Inquisition to the point that they completely fail with it (high disapproval)

 

Leliana on the other hand does her reforms all by herself and after that declares support for the Inquisition. I don't know why the devs have made it like this but it might be something to consider.

 

Well, you know why I think the devs did it But this doesn't bode well for her either when we all know they're likely to make all three endings end up in the same general area. I think things will get better for mages more or less, but conflict is inevitable. As always.

[Lulupab]

Yeah, 51% is a majority.

 

Feel free to pretend lmao, but its beneath you. Loyalist mages were becoming a rarity by the end of asunder.

[Imported_beer]

My abiding problem with Leliana is that she is so defined by her interactions with others.

 

Think of her development thus far.

 

Leliana falls in love with Marjolaine. She is all bard-y.

 

Then, Marjolaine betrays her, and she is saved by Dorothea. Leliana becomes all chaste and pious.

 

Oh look, she encounters the Warden who encourages her to stay nice, or become mean and she does as directed.

 

Alas, she has to leave the Warden for the woman she saved to whom she dedicates herself doing questionable things.

 

But wait.... Oh no. Justinia died, and Leliana goes through a crisis of faith and guess what, your inquisitor completely influences how stabby she gets as a human being.

 

Leliana is defined by what people direct her to be, and that is the way it has been from her introduction as a character. Who or what Leliana is, as an independent thinker, is something I have not been able to understand. As a result, I feel uncomfortable about a person so suggestible heading the chantry.

 

Say what you will about Cassandra and Vivienne, but when you select them, you know what you are getting as an ideology, and you know that is it not going to change easily. Leliana may be all about freedom of mages now, but she has a history of being talked out of anything. Or into anything. YMMV

 

/I went meta. Oh gods, forgive me.

[Lulupab]

My abiding problem with Leliana is that she is so defined by her interactions with others.

 

Think of her development thus far.

 

Leliana falls in love with Marjolaine. She is all bard-y.

 

Then, Marjolaine betrays her, and she is saved by Dorothea. Leliana becomes all chaste and pious.

 

Oh look, she encounters the Warden who encourages her to stay nice, or become mean and she does as directed.

 

Alas, she has to leave the Warden for the woman she saved to whom she dedicates herself doing questionable things.

 

But wait.... Oh no. Justinia died, and Leliana goes through a crisis of faith and guess what, your inquisitor completely influences how stabby she gets as a human being.

 

Leliana is defined by what people direct her to be, and that is the way it has been from her introduction as a character. Who or what Leliana is, as an independent thinker, is something I have not been able to understand. As a result, I feel uncomfortable about a person so suggestible heading the chantry.

 

Say what you will about Cassandra and Vivienne, but when you select them, you know what you are getting as an ideology, and you know that is it not going to change easily. Leliana may be all about freedom of mages now, but she has a history of being talked out of anything. Or into anything. YMMV

 

/I went meta. Oh gods, forgive me.

 

That's fan service and choice. You cannot have Leliana in both conditions. Leliana is a fan favorite character and as such this is inevitable. The canon however is Leliana getting hardened and your warden is irrelevant in this matter, Leliana was hardened at DAO. If you didn't notice there is nothing regarding Hardening Leliana at the keep, this is the reason. She is hardened by default and stays that way. The fan service however is granted one more time at DA:I.

[Mushashi7]

in disney movies only

.
Such a trust in your fellow beings? I guess that is just the right way to make a better world? Isn't it?

By stating so you have already spread mistrust to me. How can I be sure I can rely on you to to do your very best and not hold back?
You just showed me how not to trust. Is that the way things should be?

Where do the dominos start rolling?

[MisterJB]

.
Such a trust in your fellow beings? I guess that is just the right way to make a better world? Isn't it?

By stating so you have already spread mistrust to me. How can I be sure I can rely on you to to do your very best and not hold back?
You just showed me how not to trust. Is that the way things should be?

Where do the dominos start rolling?

Dominoes can't roll, they're squared.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's fan service and choice. You cannot have Leliana in both conditions. Leliana is a fan favorite character and as such this is inevitable. The canon however is Leliana getting hardened and your warden is irrelevant in this matter, Leliana was hardened at DAO. If you didn't notice there is nothing regarding Hardening Leliana at the keep, this is the reason. She is hardened by default and stays that way. The fan service however is granted one more time at DA:I.

She isn't hardened at dao lol she is after it just doesn't matter as she goes under divine influence and she wanted her as bard...

 

 

.
Such a trust in your fellow beings? I guess that is just the right way to make a better world? Isn't it?

By stating so you have already spread mistrust to me. How can I be sure I can rely on you to to do your very best and not hold back?
You just showed me how not to trust. Is that the way things should be?

Where do the dominos start rolling?

Trust is a weakness that peoples will exploit and always will and that is human nature. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

No, because that's how people are realistically. As long as mages exist, there will be mage on non mage conflict. Simply because they are demon magnets. Only time this wasn't the case was when the veil wasn't a thing.

 

So instead of trying to change people, the only option is to make compromise. A circle must exist, but that doesn't mean every mage should be forced to remain in them. However, all mages should be monitored in some way. And the circle can be a place to educate them, while housing those that are too dangerous or weak to control their power.

 

But what Lels does is too idealistic.

That's under the assumption that mages will inevitably submit to persecution and relent. Mages as a people, are outnumbered by muggles but those muggles are divided on the mage issue as well. People like Blackwall, Varric, the people of Ferelden, and Leliana are syjmpathetic to the mage plight. And who knows how many like Cole can exist and not be known. What Leliana is trying to do isn't idealistic as there are good people in the world that would not support the pro-templars' hateful causes.

[Colonelkillabee]

That's under the assumption that mages will inevitably submit to persecution and relent. Mages as a people, are outnumbered by muggles but those muggles are divided on the mage issue as well. People like Blackwall, Varric, the people of Ferelden, and Leliana are syjmpathetic to the mage plight. And who knows how many like Cole can exist and not be known. What Leliana is trying to do isn't idealistic as there are good people in the world that would not support the pro-templars' hateful causes.

 

They will submit or die. They can't win.

 

It's idealistic because no matter what you do, people will fear mages. Because the majority of people are ignorant for one, even in "educated" societies, and even so, their ignorant fear isn't even a baseless one.

 

And it isn't about hate. I don't hate mages for one. It's about safety and common sense. People are way too focused on morality and holding hands.

[Colonelkillabee]

.
Such a trust in your fellow beings? I guess that is just the right way to make a better world? Isn't it?

By stating so you have already spread mistrust to me. How can I be sure I can rely on you to to do your very best and not hold back?
You just showed me how not to trust. Is that the way things should be?

Where do the dominos start rolling?

You're a complete stranger. I wouldn't trust any of you with my toenails, much less my very life.

[Sports72Xtrm]

They will submit or die. They can't win.

 

It's idealistic because no matter what you do, people will fear mages. Because the majority of people are ignorant for one, even in "educated" societies, and even so, their ignorant fear isn't even a baseless one.

 

And it isn't about hate. I don't hate mages for one. It's about safety and common sense. People are way too focused on morality and holding hands.

"Ignorant" in ignorant fear is the key word. You can't have common sense and ignorance at the same time. People can learn to behave civilly and not be slaves to associative biases- that is in this context mage=bad. It's the same way doctor's treat all patients with the same symptoms the same whether they be black or white- instead of having racial biases. Ignorance and logic cannot coexist and if they know better and choose not to abide tolerance and civil behavior and chooses to act on it, then their behavior is criminally psychopathic and must be dealt with.

 

But mages do not desire to be demon possessed or have unregulated magic harm the populace and the college will find ways better to fight demonic possession with out persecution and unwarranted judgement from muggles.

 

"Submit to persecution or die"- from where I'm standing, you do hate mages.

[raging_monkey]

They will submit or die. They can't win.
 
It's idealistic because no matter what you do, people will fear mages. Because the majority of people are ignorant for one, even in "educated" societies, and even so, their ignorant fear isn't even a baseless one.
 
And it isn't about hate. I don't hate mages for one. It's about safety and common sense. People are way too focused on morality and holding hands.

*holds hands with temp and magi* so i should stop

[Master Warder Z_]

Something tells me you'd like Tevinter.

You'd be wrong.

It's literally the only thing they have right.

[Colonelkillabee]

"Ignorant" in ignorant fear is the key word. You can't have common sense and ignorance at the same time. People can learn to behave civilly and not be slaves to associative biases- that is in this context mage=bad. It's the same way doctor's treat all patients with the same symptoms the same whether they be black or white- instead of having racial biases. Ignorance and logic cannot coexist and if they know better and choose not to abide tolerance and civil behavior and chooses to act on it, then their behavior is criminally psychopathic and must be dealt with.

 

But mages do not desire to be demon possessed or have unregulated magic harm the populace and the college will find ways better to fight demonic possession with out persecution and unwarranted judgement from muggles.

 

Oh? I'm ignorant to a lot of things while still having common sense.

 

I can be ignorant to how mages work but common sense can still tell me that mages need to be regulated in some shape or form. Just as I don't have to know exactly how physics work to know my ass better not get mad when I crash at 80 miles an hour, then end up with my ass where my head should be because I didn't wear a seatbelt.

 

All the rest of this is rather pointless fluff talk. It's not about civility, morality or whatever. It's about not letting those things blind you from the fact that despite the tragedy of mages being human beings, they ARE dangerous, very dangerous and need to be regulated some way, somehow.

 

If you've been reading the thread, you saw my suggestions for a middle ground for the circle and mages. I don't see what else there is to discuss.

[Colonelkillabee]

*holds hands with temp and magi* so i should stop

I would, lol. Never get between two fighting dogs.

[Jackums]

They will submit or die. They can't win.

It's amusing how your own take is so ironically similar to Tevinter's. You're essentially just embodying the non-magical equivalent of the tyrannical society you're so opposed to. The issue is not magic or a lack thereof. The divide is entirely human. The issue is the narrow, jaded attitude you display here, under the guise of "realism," when more often it's arrogance, pride, desire for control and power, and hatred that breeds the cycle.

 

There's a difference between being realistic and pragmatic, and outright emotionally and mentally jaded into cynicism and misanthropy.

 

There will always be conflict, therefore we shouldn't attempt at the "unrealistic" outcomes suggested? They're only unrealistic because they're perceived as such. Embodying such an absolute, we might as well all become hedonistic nihilists, since nothing is ultimately consequential anyway.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not Ignoring how humans work isn't cynicism.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Oh? I'm ignorant to a lot of things while still having common sense.

 

I can be ignorant to how mages work but common sense can still tell me that mages need to be regulated in some shape or form. Just as I don't have to know exactly how physics work to know my ass better not get mad when I crash at 80 miles an hour, then end up with my ass where my head should be because I didn't wear a seatbelt.

 

All the rest of this is rather pointless fluff talk. It's not about civility, morality or whatever. It's about not letting those things blind you from the fact that despite the tragedy of mages being human beings, they ARE dangerous, very dangerous and need to be regulated some way, somehow.

 

If you've been reading the thread, you saw my suggestions for a middle ground for the circle and mages. I don't see what else there is to discuss.

Yes you are ignorant: oversimplifying the issue of mages by comparing them to an inapt comparison does not support your argument. Mages are people with powers but the college is created for them to master their powers, they shouldn't be judged as dangerous from the get-go- that is persecution and hate. Mages should be trained, but the argument is the way the chantry has be treating them has been with persecution and that does little in helping foster mutual understanding or helping mages stabilize their mastery of their powers which is the goal of the Circles and Colleges. Not to persecute them so that muggles can satiate their unwarranted fears and paranoia.

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

First of all, my "submit or die" comment is just a plain fact. Mages are outnumbered, and there is no way they could realistically win any such war against the people of white Thedas. Their only option is to submit to them on some level, or die out.

 

Second, blah blah narrow view, morality this or that, yea you can say what you want but the dangers posed by mages existing is real, not something made up or born from ignorance.

[Colonelkillabee]

Yes you are ignorant: oversimplifying the issue of mages by comparing them to an inapt comparison does not support your argument. Mages are people with powers but the college is created for them to master their powers, they shouldn't be judged as dangerous from the get-go- that is persecution and hate. Mages should be trained, but the argument is the way the chantry has be treating them has been with persecution and that does little in helping foster mutual understanding or helping mages stabilize their mastery of their powers which is the goal of the Circles and Colleges. Not to persecute them so that muggles can satiate their unwarranted fears and paranoia.

 

That isn't hate, that isn't persecution, that is fact. You'd have to be ignoring everything that's happened thus far to not see that. Yes, the chantry over-exaggerates, which is why I said a compromise is necessary, but no, the dangers are in fact real, hence why even some dalish give up their mages if they have too many.

 

The only thing ignorant here is ignoring these truths in favor of your morality kicks that don't change reality.