o.o They are the best solution.
For both parties.
Leliana ensures that the Templars don't fear lyrium addicition as they join the seekers if Cass doesn't reform them. Apparently if you tell Cass to become divine but tell her not to reform the seekers, she doesn't remake them and most templars leave the inquisition.
They cannot retcon everything, if they let everything open-ended meaning so many different choices such as what happens to city elves then its safe to assume the next game either not be in south (Tevinter, Par Vollen etc) or it will be a different time. And if DLCs are going to change anything I doubt it will affect Leliana's, Solas is coming and Cassandra and Vivienne need to prepare their anuses because they ignore the elves.
If the game is in different timeline or in North, I'll be happy that Leliana in fact did everything it was told she did on epilogue and nothing backfired, not anymore than other divine then the joke will be on you for being over cautious with your securities. Because Leliana was in fact the best moral choice who made Thedas a better place, not go back to age-old problems and broken systems that served no one but paranoia of skittish tarts.
They cannot retcon everything, if they let everything open-ended meaning so many different choices such as what happens to city elves then its safe to assume the next game either not be in south (Tevinter, Par Vollen etc) or it will be a different time. And if DLCs are going to change anything I doubt it will affect Leliana's, Solas is coming and Cassandra and Vivienne need to prepare their anuses because they ignore the elves.
If the game is in different timeline or in North, I'll be happy that Leliana in fact did everything it was told she did on epilogue and nothing backfired, not anymore than other divine then the joke will be on you for being over cautious with your securities. Because Leliana was in fact the best moral choice who made Thedas a better place, not go back to age-old problems and broken systems that served no one but paranoia of skittish tarts.
I recall the devs said that the mage-templar debates would be ended in this game and that the devs had enough of Southern Thedas. That means the next games are taking place in the North. Looks like the pessimists are going to be disappointed.
Not really I'd settle for just hearing a npc comment on how the Divine was brutally murdered.
It need not be anything special.
Bet people who got Cass wouldn't be pleased. Nobody cares about Vivienne
Bet people who got Cass wouldn't be pleased. Nobody cares about Vivienne
Two things bother me with having her as the Divine.
One is that, even softened, Leliana can be a bit...murder-y. I cant help but think that "Everyone should be allowed into the chantry!" can slip into "Everyone should be Andrastian!" very easily. I can see her, with the best of intentions (When the Chant spreads to the 4 corners of the earth, the Maker returns!), forcing the chantry upon everyone.
The second concern i have with her is that, while i support the idea of freedom for mages, i do think that mages need to have some kind of required education, just to keep from accidentally blowing up themselves and half of a small town.
You're not wrong. Actually Leliana starts planning exalted marches before she's even made Divine (hardened). The Inquisitor can't babysit her and keep her "good" forever. Like always she's gonna dissolve into murder knife land until someone murder knifes her. If they even give her the chance to become hardened. There is no way nobles are gonna like competing against mages, nor will the ordinary citizens of Thedas. They're too ignorant and taught to hate and fear magic. That's not gonna wash away any time soon. Every time a mage commits a crime people will look to the Divine, whenever some mage strikes it rich, buys land, offers a competing service, people will look to the Divine who freed them. as dorian says to my mage Inquisitor.
"The Antivan Crows are probably swimming in gold from all the contracts on your life." 
I think the only thing that would keep Leliana and even Vivienne alive is the Inquisition (and Viv's Templar Order). Cass would be fine as she simply maintains the status quo.
I recall the devs said that the mage-templar debates would be ended in this game and that the devs had enough of Southern Thedas. That means the next games are taking place in the North. Looks like the pessimists are going to be disappointed.
I actually wouldnt be disappointed , unlike some of you who make this a team leliana , team Cass/Vivienne thing i only care about the results in the end , the only reason i have yet make to leliana divine is because i dont think her reforms will work in the long run if im proven wrong however i'd gladly do another playthrough and give her a seat on the sunburst throne. 
You're not wrong. Actually Leliana starts planning exalted marches before she's even made Divine (hardened). The Inquisitor can't babysit her and keep her "good" forever. Like always she's gonna dissolve into murder knife land until someone murder knifes her. If they even give her the chance to become hardened. There is no way nobles are gonna like competing against mages, nor will the ordinary citizens of Thedas. They're too ignorant and taught to hate and fear magic. That's not gonna wash away any time soon. Every time a mage commits a crime people will look to the Divine, whenever some mage strikes it rich, buys land, offers a competing service, people will look to the Divine who freed them. as dorian says to my mage Inquisitor.
"The Antivan Crows are probably swimming in gold from all the contracts on your life."
I think the only thing that would keep Leliana and even Vivienne alive is the Inquisition (and Viv's Templar Order). Cass would be fine as she simply maintains the status quo.
Well she murdered for Justinia and she is venerated by every single person on Thedas. Thedas is too much of a dump to solve problems without violence. Actually Cass and Vivienne firmly rely on Inquisition to succeed and will ultimately fail without this support (high disapproval with Inquisitor). Leliana on the other hand does what she does with zero help from Inquisition and once she is done, she claims support for Inquisition.
Who do you think keeping the crows away from Inquisitor? You guessed right, Leliana.
I actually wouldnt be disappointed , unlike some of you who make this a team leliana , team Cass/Vivienne thing i only care about the results in the end , the only reason i have yet make to leliana divine is because i dont think her reforms will work in the long run if im proved wrong however i'd gladly do another playthrough and give her a seat on the sunburst throne.
IMO Cassandra is better as Lord seeker (lady seeker?) helping Leliana. She makes the best right hand ever and together they would be perfect.
Well she murdered for Justinia and she is venerated by every single person on Thedas. Thedas is too much of a dump to solve problems without violence. Actually Cass and Vivienne firmly rely on Inquisition to succeed and will ultimately fail without this support (high disapproval with Inquisitor). Leliana on the other hand does what she does with zero help from Inquisition and once she is done, she claims support for Inquisition.
Who do you think keeping the crows away from Inquisitor? You guessed right, Leliana.
I should also mention that Vivienne is the only Divine who doesn't openly support the Inquisition.
If you dont support the Circles getting dissolved then clearly you are a horrible human being
C'mon now. We all know Mages are just ordinary people like everyone else. They can't massacre an entire village or rise demon armies in a single night so no one should ever fear them. If they commit crimes, ordinary guardsman are more than enough to nullify their magic and they should just be thrown in regular prisons with everyone else....with Iron bars....that can be shattered easily by them....wait....
C'mon now. We all know Mages are just ordinary people like everyone else. They can't massacre an entire village or rise demon armies in a single night so no one should ever fear them. If they commit crimes, ordinary guardsman are more than enough to nullify their magic and they should just be thrown in regular prisons with everyone else....with Iron bars....that can be shattered easily by them....wait....
C'mon now. We all know Mages are just ordinary people like everyone else. They can't massacre an entire village or rise demon armies in a single night so no one should ever fear them. If they commit crimes, ordinary guardsman are more than enough to nullify their magic and they should just be thrown in regular prisons with everyone else....with Iron bars....that can be shattered easily by them....wait....
I can rewrite this sentence by replacing "mages" with "nobles" and the sentence would be as true.
Political power > magic power.
>: (I can rewrite this sentence by replacing "mages" with "nobles" and the sentence would be as true.
Political power > magic power.
Well she murdered for Justinia and she is venerated by every single person on Thedas. Thedas is too much of a dump to solve problems without violence. Actually Cass and Vivienne firmly rely on Inquisition to succeed and will ultimately fail without this support (high disapproval with Inquisitor). Leliana on the other hand does what she does with zero help from Inquisition and once she is done, she claims support for Inquisition.
Who do you think keeping the crows away from Inquisitor? You guessed right, Leliana.
Leliana was the Left hand and the ordinary citizens of Thedas know nothing about her actions, just like they don't know what she does for the IQ. Unless it's shouted from the roof tops and that wouldn't make her a very good spymaster.
Keep on thinking nobles, merchants, and everyone else will welcome the newfound competition and not blame the one who declared them free.
And yeah she keeps the crows off me, she's a good spymaster but even she admits that she has blind spots especially if doing more than her work. Something she tells you if you ask her to come with you. She also let Thom Rainier slip by. And that is my point about Leliana. She is good, but everyone makes mistakes and all it takes is one. I liked hardened Leliana, but there are only so many throats you can cut before someone is cutting yours.
IMO Cassandra is better as Lord seeker (lady seeker?) helping Leliana. She makes the best right hand ever and together they would be perfect.
If i had your faith in Leliana i would take that approach ( since i dont want Cassandra to break up with my Inquisitor and Cassandra would be happier as a seeker i believe ) but as it stands i cant say i do.
I can rewrite this sentence by replacing "mages" with "nobles" and the sentence would be as true.
Political power > magic power.
You assume that I believe nobles should operate unchecked.
I want to spread Chaos and Destruction, enslaving the peasants with Blood Magic and raise a demon army.
I can rewrite this sentence by replacing "mages" with "nobles" and the sentence would be as true.
Political power > magic power.
Yes but political power is much harder to amass than magic. You need political savvy, charisma, knowledge, and a host of other qualities that few people possess.
Also, nobles largely live in the public eye for this reason. Since they have so much influence, people want to know that they are using it right. The Circle exists to accomplish the same goal with mages and their magic.
I want to spread Chaos and Destruction, enslaving the peasants with Blood Magic and raise a demon army.
You need to aim higher than that. Don't you want a harem, a banquet, and the ability to rain fireballs upon every heathen Oxmen in creation.
Leliana was the Left hand and the ordinary citizens of Thedas know nothing about her actions, just like they don't know what she does for the IQ. Unless it's shouted from the roof tops and that wouldn't make her a very good spymaster.
Keep on thinking nobles, merchants, and everyone else will welcome the newfound competition and not blame the one who declared them free.
And yeah she keeps the crows off me, she's a good spymaster but even she admits that she has blind spots especially if doing more than her work. Something she tells you if you ask her to come with you. She also let Thom Rainier slip by. And that is my point about Leliana. She is good, but everyone makes mistakes and all it takes is one. I liked hardened Leliana, but there are only so many throats you can cut before someone is cutting yours.
Well to be fair she uses intrigues and threat first and the dagger comes if these fail. The key to Leliana's success will be the support of common people, these people will refuse to go against their savior and since the armies of nobles are made of these people that will hinder the efforts. Leliana might die as would any Divine, if anything Vivienne is in more danger due to 3 rebellions that happens.
And to be honest Leliana gets misinformed two times in total. Once when she gets soft and recalls her agents once they disappear so she doesn't see Corypheus coming to haven and 2nd she trusts Blackwall and doesn't look into him. Blackwall doesn't give any hints other than the player hindsight about it, the vast majority of players were surprised by his "discovery". This shows if she was more "hardened" she would succeed since both happens because she gets soft.
Yes but political power is much harder to amass than magic. You need political savvy, charisma, knowledge, and a host of other qualities that few people possess.
Also, nobles largely live in the public eye for this reason. Since they have so much influence, people want to know that they are using it right. The Circle exists to accomplish the same goal with mages and their magic.
The number of mages and nobles is roughly the same, besides behind closes doors the fate of worlds is decided. Everyone can smile and nod in public. The college can be used for the same reason. The mages govern themselves with both divines and the circles truly return under Vivienne. And I'm talking about siding with mages since its required to change the view of people on magic .
I can rewrite this sentence by replacing "mages" with "nobles" and the sentence would be as true.
Political power > magic power.
Not at all personal power>political power of course depending on how much certain power you have.
Political power comes from society thus you need restrict social norms or society will pretty much will bring you down.
Now for example we take superman who have a lot personal power such person would pretty dominate whole earth and force everyone bend to his will while being pretty much unstoppable.
There is no single person or even nobles that can destroy thedas when single mage can intentionally or not end doing that as we were shown.
You assume that I believe nobles should operate unchecked.
Good that you recognize their threats. And in this thread, all I ask is mages given the same courtesy and not get stuck in tower prematurely. There are mages who deserve than and worse, but the majority really doesn't.
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