262 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Not at all personal power>political power of course depending on how much certain power you have.

 

Political power comes from society thus you need restrict social norms or society will pretty much will bring you down.

 

Now for example we take superman who have a lot personal power such person would pretty dominate whole earth and force everyone bend to his will while being pretty much unstoppable.

 

There is no single person or even nobles that can destroy thedas when single mage can intentionally or not end doing that as we were shown.

 

A power hungry and mad noble rose to power and became Emperor of Orlais and razed Ferelden for 80 years. He put more effort than a mage behind his power. Its about effort if anything and Political power is more rewarding.

 

Even the magisters are powerful because of their political power not their personal magic power. The one with connections and weaker magic will obliterate the one with less connections and more magic power.

[raging_monkey]

A power hungry and mad noble rose to power and became Emperor of Orlais and razed Ferelden for 80 years. He put more effort than a mage behind his power. Its about effort if anything and Political power is more rewarding.
 
Even the magisters are powerful because of their political power not their personal magic power. The one with connections and weaker magic will obliterate the one with less connections and more magic power.

dont argue with TKS...its not worth it

[TheKomandorShepard]

A power hungry and mad noble rose to power and became Emperor of Orlais and razed Ferelden for 80 years. He put more effort than a mage behind his power. Its about effort if anything and Political power is more rewarding.

 

Even the magisters are powerful because of their political power not their personal magic power. The one with connections and weaker magic will obliterate the one with less connections and more magic power.

He went after another society while he had support of his own it is called pretty much war.I never recall any nobles (save for magisters) that almost destroyed world either intentionally or not and in fact neither they had power to do so.

 

Mages are danger to everyone around including themselves as single individual while noble power comes from society so they are forced social norms in it.

 

 

dont argue with TKS...its not worth it

Of course as first you need arguments that are worth something to do that.

[Hazegurl]

Well to be fair she uses intrigues and threat first and the dagger comes if these fail. The key to Leliana's success will be the support of common people, these people will refuse to go against their savior and since the armies of nobles are made of these people that will hinder the efforts. Leliana might die as would any Divine, if anything Vivienne is in more danger due to 3 rebellions that happens.

 

And to be honest Leliana gets misinformed two times in total. Once when she gets soft and recalls her agents once they disappear so she doesn't see Corypheus coming to haven and 2nd she trusts Blackwall and doesn't look into him. Blackwall doesn't give any hints other than the player hindsight about it, the vast majority of players were surprised by his "discovery". This shows if she was more "hardened" she would succeed since both happens because she gets soft.

You mean the same mass of ignorant sheep who cling to their irrelevant chants and taught to hate and fear magic for centuries?  Those are the people she will rely on?? If so, then...

 

Well, S**t.

 

I agree, Viv is the far more risky choice but with the IQ backing her, restoration of the Circles and Templars to keep most of the common feeling safe I believe those riots will calm down and soon everyone would go back to their regular lives feeling safe that Mages are stuffed back into their Circles and their Templar Knights will keep them warm and fuzzy.  Which will allow Mages to gain power behind closed doors and integrate that power into society piece by piece.

 

It sort of reminds me of that movie "The Faculty".  If you want to take over, do you blow up the White House or sneak in thru the back door.

 

Leliana blows up the White House while Viv sneaks through the back door.

 

When it comes to long term mage freedom and power, my money's on Viv.

[Lulupab]

dont argue with TKS...its not worth it

 

I usually don't, I've been on this site since 2008 and I know many people. Just because I usually didn't post (my low post count) doesn't mean I didn't read. I know TKS from the first day he came with his annoying counselor Udina avatar and let me tell you he had zero character development and he mocks Bioware's cd. 

[Lulupab]

You mean the same mass of ignorant sheep who cling to their irrelevant chants and taught to hate and fear magic for centuries?  Those are the people she will rely on?? If so, then...

 

Well, S**t.

 

I agree, Viv is the far more risky choice but with the IQ backing her, restoration of the Circles and Templars to keep most of the common feeling safe I believe those riots will calm down and soon everyone would go back to their regular lives feeling safe that Mages are stuffed back into their Circles and their Templar Knights will keep them warm and fuzzy.  Which will allow Mages to gain power behind closed doors and integrate that power into society piece by piece.

 

It sort of reminds me of that movie "The Faculty".  If you want to take over, do you blow up the White House or sneak in thru the back door.

 

Leliana blows up the White House while Viv sneaks through the back door.

 

When it comes to long term mage freedom and power, my money's on Viv.

 

Since I was solely speaking about siding with mages, yes the same people who witnessed the world getting saved by mages. Also add the fact that Leliana helps the helpless and poor and its the first thing she does when she is Divine. And if you read the thread I made a comparison between Leliana and queen Elizabeth and their resemblance in what they do is too good to think there was no inspiration here.

 

Elizabeth probably had the greatest spy network of her time and she used to keep all her nobles in check, she gained the support of commoners by turning church into a charity organizations and absolutely crushed those who opposed this first by using threats and intrigue to make them shut up and sit down or by killing them if it failed. She then restored peace to England after hundred years and during peace after a long time art and literature prospered and economy got ten times better. She then ruled until her natural death without a single rebellion becoming a thing since it never got enough followers to oppose her and she did just kick Christianity out of politics for the first time yet people favored her over doom and gloom of Christianity.

 

Sure you can guess and add your opinion regarding fate of Leliana in the future but we have real life examples that the system she creates can indeed work. I mean didn't you notice the greatest sword couldn't save Orlais when intrigues and secrets did at wicked hearts and wicked eyes? Leliana's system is perfect for Orlais where she will rule. The empire is center of south anyhow.

[Hazegurl]

If you say so. I just had my Leliana (hardened) Divine ending. The game does a great job of making it clear that she will succeed, but then they do that for all the chosen Divines so it's a case of everyone getting what they want. Realistically, I don't see her living long without aid and it's good to see her accept it when my IQ offered it. And like you I also hope that the people seeing mages stop Cory will have an effect, heck I even had an all mage party at the end to head canon at least a comeback "Four Mages took down the Magister." but I don't think you can cure centuries of ignorance and hate with a few heroic deeds. It's like saying racism can end by seeing minorities do good deeds.

 

Overall, I think it won't matter anyway. Hopefully we'll be headed to Tevinter next and all we'll get is rumors about how successful our chosen Divines are no matter what.

[Master Warder Z_]

o.o I think Tevinter is better off never being done.

[Lulupab]

Leliana is pretty much Renaissance of Thedas. Hopefully there will be no retcons and as Hazegurl said we will at least hear about how successful our chosen divine was. If all of them are successful I pretty much see Leliana at the top as being the Divine Thedas needs.

[Lulupab]

o.o I think Tevinter is better off never being done.

 

But but... So much potential. Slave origin, magister origin, Ambassador surface dwarf origin, Qunari mercenary origin. Also DAO needs to be rectified, we need a game in which only the mage class can become a royalty of some sort and rogues and warriors get the stick.

[raging_monkey]

Leliana is pretty much Renaissance of Thedas. Hopefully there will be no retcons and as Hazegurl said we will at least hear about how successful our chosen divine was. If all of them are successful I pretty much see Leliana at the top as being the Divine Thedas needs.

idk im all for trolling protemps but idk if shes the one thedas needs

[Lulupab]

idk im all for trolling protemps but idk if shes the one thedas needs

 

Well she does something for pretty much everyone. As much as I wanted Templars gone I didn't want them to wander the streets going through withdrawal. Becoming a seeker and continuing their duty as seeker is a quite good ending for Templar order. I rather become a seeker than get my balls cut off by getting leashed by a mage divine.

[raging_monkey]

Well she does something for pretty much everyone. As much as I wanted Templars gone I didn't want them to wander the streets going through withdrawal. Becoming a seeker and continuing their duty as seeker is a quite good ending for Templar order. I rather become a seeker than get my balls cut off by getting leashed by a mage divine.

dorian says it so well * does castration gesture* haha

[Hero]

I've spent a long time agonizing whether I should take the risk and have Leliana become divine, or play it safe and take Cassandra. I've decided to go with my heart rather than my head. Last time I checked, playing it safe never changed the world.

 

(Sorry if that sounds overly dramatic, just don't know how to say it better.)

[Daerog]

So... Viv isn't being considered because she acts rude or something?

 

 

She is devout, she knows how to play the Game, she does care about others, she looks at the big picture (helpful when leading an international organization), she is intelligent, and while she does have ideals she knows that such things cannot be immediately done. She knows that Thedas won't openly accept mages whole heartedly just because the Divine says to.

 

Ya, people freak out because she is a mage and they get chaotic, but she swiftly gets order back and things continue on.

 

 

I personally find her to be the best option. Mages have a little more freedom and a place in the dominant religion, Templars are a little more closely watched, and things go back to how the Circle was originally intended which lasted a very long time, but this time with a mage being an effective Divine that the commoners can get used to talking about and cherish (or ignore) as a religious leader.

 

Still, I feel like I must say this is my opinion based on my views. I find Leliana to be a terrible choice, but I do like her... just not as Divine Victoria.

[Hero]

I'm sorry if I disrespected your view.

 

The reason I did not consider Vivienne is for a number of personal reasons. To me she seems like the type that would have a "ends justify the means" mindset in quite a few situations and she seems too closeminded and conservative for my tastes. I also don't feel like I could trust her to do the "right" (ie. compassionate and just) thing, she seems more like she'll do what's best for her.

 

That's just my feelings on the matter, no offense meant.

[Master Warder Z_]

But but... So much potential

The current writing staff will butcher it.

I'd rather never see it then have it ruined.

[Lulupab]

Yes lets see what happens to mages we saved if Vivienne becomes divine: She kills them in 3 rebellions one after another in succession. WTF. I didn't save mages to be butchered by a mage Divine. But as per usual none of that matters if Vivienne has her wealth, charm and mansions for each seasons. We need to invent a new word specific to Vivienne and this word should mean: "Omega ultimate advanced selfish".

 

 

The current writing staff will butcher it.

I'd rather never see it then have it ruined.

 

Ultimately you may be right, but I liked how the handled Orlais. We could change the ruler but we really couldn't change how the country worked in general so even if we go Tevinter I doubt we will be able to change the system over there. Tevinter being the way it is (different) is one of the major reasons Thedas is interesting as a world.

[Urzon]

I personally find her to be the best option. Mages have a little more freedom and a place in the dominant religion, Templars are a little more closely watched, and things go back to how the Circle was originally intended which lasted a very long time, but this time with a mage being an effective Divine that the commoners can get used to talking about and cherish (or ignore) as a religious leader.

Mages only got more freedom because Vivienne was overseeing the entire thing and willed it so. The thing about politics though, and major religious organizations I guess (albeit slower), is that you can't be on top forever. Once Vivienne is gone, it's a real possibility that the next Divine might have a different stance on the whole "How mages should be treated" question.

This is one of the reason I chose the Divine McStabbens as my canon Divine. Her methods might be cruel, but her changes (the ones I agree with anyway) have the best chance of survive past her time. She can cultivate lot of support from the public and the more charismatic nobles by opening up the Chantry and moving their agenda to charity works, and with her varies sorts of agents, she can deal with a majority of problems and opponents that might arise quickly and quietly before they could harm her or her changes.

Cassandra, while an awesome choice I would most likely support in RL, is a compromiser. Compromise is a good thing, but it can only work if the other side is willing to give up something as well. As we see in her Divine slides, what modest reforms she enacts draws a lot of opposition. Unless she's able to root out most of her opposition to either discredit or deal with them, they will continue to dog her reign as Divine by either quietly or publicly working against and undermining her reforms.

[TevinterSupremacist]

A better question is why men still aren't allowed in the priesthood.

Who gives a **** about elves, qunari or dwarves.

But they are....oh wait, you were referring to the heretics....oh well..

[Urazz]

I'm not sure i see Cassandra's reforms being much (despite liking her a lot as a character. She's very much conservative and i see changes being modest. So maybe more freedom for fraternisation among mages, freedom to move between circles but not license to live outside them.

Actually, I thought Vivienne was the most conservative of the 3 which is quite surprising since she is a mage and all.

[Kinsz]

Yes lets see what happens to mages we saved if Vivienne becomes divine: She kills them in 3 rebellions one after another in succession. WTF. I didn't save mages to be butchered by a mage Divine. But as per usual none of that matters if Vivienne has her wealth, charm and mansions for each seasons. We need to invent a new word specific to Vivienne and this word should mean: "Omega ultimate advanced selfish".

.

Or perhaps she kills them because she simply doesnt want people openly oppose her reforms fearing it might set a precedent ,? You know like Leliana does with the chantry folks ? I knw you hate Vivienne but come on.

[Lulupab]

Or perhaps she kills them because she simply doesnt want people openly oppose her reforms fearing it might set a precedent ,? You know like Leliana does with the chantry folks ? I knw you hate Vivienne but come on.

 

Opposing changes that are good from the root are not the same though. We both know they are zealot sects that should be put down anyhow because they threaten stability and more importantly Leliana kills leaders. But mages rebelled and lost their brethren only to end up in circles... again. Its very cruel to side with mages and elect Vivienne as divine. Vivienne will get opposition both from mundanes and mages and she kills them both, mages more than anyone else. She puts down three rebellions in the circles. But if you side with Templars she only has to deal with mundanes rising against a mage divine and since most mages are dead there are no opposition.

 

Vivienne would make a perfect magister with all her self centered actions and close mindedness and she is more than willing to chain and kill his own kind to secure her own personal power.

 

The only courtesy I can give her is the fact that mages are apparently more free inside the circles, bit still stuck in a tower based on pure paranoia.

[TK514]

If the devs hadn't basically written 'And eveyone lives happily ever after' for all the Divines, I would put Cass as the most likely to have her reforms outlast her time as Divine.

 

Viv is a novelty, and, unless she is followed by someone who can quickly consolidate their power, one that is unlikely to be duplicated.

 

Bloody Lel and Rainbows Lel are both just setting up another war between normal people and mages.  It won't be long before another group of folks arise like the original Inquisition, dedicated to taking magical justice into their own hands.

[Lulupab]

If the devs hadn't basically written 'And eveyone lives happily ever after' for all the Divines, I would put Cass as the most likely to have her reforms outlast her time as Divine.

 

Viv is a novelty, and, unless she is followed by someone who can quickly consolidate their power, one that is unlikely to be duplicated.

 

Bloody Lel and Rainbows Lel are both just setting up another war between normal people and mages.  It won't be long before another group of folks arise like the original Inquisition, dedicated to taking magical justice into their own hands.

 

It doesn't make sense because in case of siding with mages every single person in south owes their lives to mages. Not to mention Leliana has her seekers. Seekers + Inquisiton + Mages cooperating are more than enough to handle any magical incident.