432 réponses à ce sujet

[Feranel]

Are you saying they *didn't* put in Krem and write his dialog mostly with a mind to portraying "correct" depictions of transgender people?

 

Dorian is more up for debate I grant you, but I'll just refer you to earlier things I said in this thread about this to summarize my views on his quest. 

 

What's political about a person wanting to be identified by whatever they want to be identified?  They also do that with Cole, you are supposed to call him "him" not "it." And Iron Bull is "Iron Bull" and not "Hissrad." Even the murderous liar Thom Rainier wants to be called "Blackwall."

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Because I deal with RL political stuff when I vote, when I watch the news, when I interact with people, all day.  I just don't want it in DA.  I'm fine with DA making me think.  I don't want DA to feel like a non profit with a cause or a political campaign.

We see a lot of things in our day to day lives, and we meet a lot of people- people just like Sera, or Cassandra, or Blackwall. People who struggle with difficult things in their life. Same with Dorian. I don't see how his issue is such an *issue* for people just because it relates to politics. Maybe if some didn't view it under that lens. It relates to the real world just as much, even more so. These characters don't represent some political agenda, they represent people.

[stonerbishop]

If this was DA:O, we would have the option to tell Dorian he needs to make an heir or... ::murderknife::

We would also have the option to ::murderknife:: daddy.

[Knight of Dane]

I had that feeling on the Demands of the Qun, like, why is it my decision, it's your contacts, your country, and your merc group, your decision Iron Bull.

Because it was a mission in the name of the alliance between the Quanri and the Inquisition, it is a mercenary band in your employ and you are Iron Bull's superior.

[leaguer of one]

If this was DA:O, we would have the option to tell Dorian he needs to make an heir or... ::murderknife::

We would also have the option to ::murderknife:: daddy.

Which is why bw took away your murderknife.

 

Now go stand in the corner in time out.

[daveliam]

I know this, which is why I also wouldn't want to talk about gay rights every time I had a conversation with a gay friend or co-worker. I remember having a gay professor in college who was responsible for an accelerated study abroad group in India I was part of. Someone in our group asked him a question that was more or less "Hey, you are gay so what do you think of gay rights?" His response was "Let's talk about gay lefts."

He was a gay man living in Louisiana for over ten years. I'm pretty much positive he had dealt firsthand with the ugliest issues the world had to throw at him, but even he didn't want to talk about gay rights all the time or just be "that gay guy who we can ask about gay rights."

This is what I want DA to be-the space where I can hang out with some gay friends and/or have a gay romance *without* the ugly spectre of what gay people have to deal with looming over it all. I don't know this, but I sincerely suspect that some gay people want this too.

No one is asking for the characters to talk about gay rights all the time. It's literally one 5 minute scene in a 100 hour game. You are so concerned about avoiding the topic that you want to, effectively, remove all discussion of being gay from the game. It's a not binary. You can have SOME discussion of sexuality and not have it be the only thing talked about. I think you have greatly exaggerated how much it's talked about with Dorian.

[Ryzaki]

I have to say that I felt like that in more than a few quests. I am horribly bad in a "moral support" kind of thing, though. When a friend or someone is crying or something like that, I just kind of pat them on the back until it becomes weird, then I just stand there looking awkward. So, maybe that is why I don't want to be involved.

 

Same I just sit there all "yeaaaah." so painfully awkward.

[Korva]

Um, no.  Neither is having homosexual characters.  The existence of good homosexual people is 100% fact.  There is nothing political about this.  It makes perfect sense for them to exist in Thedas. 

 

So what is your issue exactly? Why is it a "political agenda"? How does it differ from the constant mentions of heterosexuality, which is somehow not an agenda, not a political statement, not the only thing about a character, and not shoved down our throat?

[javeart]

So, there's already a lot of people making the points I'd like to make much better than I could, so I just want to say this more concrete thing, because it annoys me to no end: there's no such thing as game or novel of film of whatever free of social values. Saying that Dorian story shouldn't make an issue if his sexuality is as a ideoligically charged stance as it possibly could be. Being in the majority (whatever majority that is) doesn't make your opinion or preferences less influenced by social values or ideologies, because "the political agenda" it's not an exclusive of minorities, and just because a specific game or novel or film doesn't question the status quo doesn't make it any different int his regard to one that does.

[javeart]

When did I ever say the game didn't discuss social values or shouldn't?  Also when did I ever say I was free of them?

 

I wasn't adressing specifically you (that's why I didn't quote you), it's more an opinion that you can find various times in this thread (and almost every other thread inw which gender, sexuality or race are discussed). But, when you say you don't like BW " making overt political statements"  or "Because I deal with RL political stuff when I vote, when I watch the news, when I interact with people, all day.  I just don't want it in DA", well you sound close to that kind of opinion, that it's only political if it's explicit and if it goes against the social order one would take for granted. Otherwise, you would see politcal statements everywhere, because they actually are everywhere. But if I missunderstood you (you specifically), I apologize, but my point still stands, as it seems to be a common opinion whether I identified you correctly or not as one its supporters. 

[Korva]

Are you talking about Dorian's quest or homosexual people/relationships being in the game?

 

You said "keep your politics out of the games". So, again: what is political about Dorian and his personal mission that is not-political about depictions of heterosexuality and heterosexual characters? What is political about not having anti-gay dialog options ... yet not calling for anti-straight options at the same time? Why is the constant, in-my-face, political heterosexual agenda not in fact a political agenda? (Irony alert again, just in case.)

 

Likewise, why is "political" for characters to refer to a trans man by the proper pronoun -- but not-political to refer to a cis man by the same proper pronoun?

 

Treating gender identity and sexual orientation as "political" only in some cases and not others is deeply "political" in and of itself.

[phantomrachie]

It was about other issues. It was about his father's hypocrisy. He taught him that blood magic was for the weak, but then wanted to use it to change Dorian's behavior. It was about how his father stood proud as his own man, but as soon as the cards hit the table, he folded to conform, to protect his image and bloodline. That was what sickened Dorian, not so much that his father disapproves if his life, but that he threw all of his morals and beliefs out the window for ideals he once fought against.

Dorian being gay was a grain of salt in that whole stew pot, but people ignore that and jump right to "agendas".

 

This, a 100 times this 

 

I never got the impression that Dorian's father cares that he is gay, he just cares that Dorian won't play along with traditional Tevinter society and go ahead with the arranged Marriage.

 

Dorian respected and looked up to his father and then as soon as Dorian decisions risks his position in society, he throws away this morals and jumps straight into Blood Magic.

 

This is the root cause of the argument between Dorian and his family, not that Dorian is gay, but that his father turned his back on his supposed values just to try to 'save face'

[daveliam]

This, a 100 times this 

 

I never got the impression that Dorian's father cares that he is gay, he just cares that Dorian won't play along with traditional Tevinter society and go ahead with the arranged Marriage.

 

Dorian respected and looked up to his father and then as soon as Dorian decisions risks his position in society, he throws away this morals and jumps straight into Blood Magic.

 

This is the root cause of the argument between Dorian and his family, not that Dorian is gay, but that his father turned his back on his supposed values just to try to 'save face'

 

Absolutely.  And, of course, his sexuality plays a role in this.  If he weren't gay, this story loses something.  It's not as compelling of a story if he's straight (or bisexual) and just not interested in marrying this particular gal. 

 

Gaider has been clear that he drew on some very personal thoughts to write this character.  I can see how it strikes a cord because of it's real-world analogs.  And I'm almost certain that Gaider's real-world politics color the writing.  But none of this is a bad thing.  If we can have, literally, dozens of examples of my character having faith thrown in his face (despite his polite and firm requests that it stops), the 'keep your politics out of my game' argument falls flat. 

[stonerbishop]

Which is why bw took away your murderknife.

Now go stand in the corner in time out.

/Pout

Just to be clear, I am not against dorian being gay or gay stories in games or bw political agenda, or anything really.

I am against not having the option to murderknife people for no reason

[Feranel]

 

I've never once been advocating that gay people *shouldn't* be in the game.  I'm saying that since they are in the game (because gay players like everyone else enjoy content that keeps them in mind), I'd prefer it wasn't used to make overt, intentional political statements.  Just like I don't want Vivienne to start talking about police violence.  Just like I don't want Cassandra to start talking about discrimination against women in the workplace. Etc.    

 

But Vivienne did talk about police violence, quite a lot in fact, and how we shouldn't be standing against the people who police mages simply because some of them go to incredibly corrupt excesses of violence and abuse of power, about how it's justified by the excesses of certain members of the policed population.

[Winged Silver]

Iron Bull not preachy? Jesus, the only way they could've made that scene with him and Krem more preachy if there was a black gospel choir on the background saying "Amen!" or "Say it girlfriend!" after every line of his. Dorian was okay, but the Krem scene was cringeworthy at best, I haven't felt so patronised in a Western game in a long, long time.

I didn't feel that way at all. If anything, I was more offended that the Iron Bull thought I was being judgmental that being said, the major moment where one might go into discussion about that is pretty much optional. Just don't ask about Krem's affairs. Otherwise, it felt like a decent implementation of representing a group that doesn't often get represented in video games. A good start, if nothing else.

[javeart]

(...) I'd prefer it wasn't used to make overt, intentional political statements.  Just like I don't want Vivienne to start talking about police violence.  Just like I don't want Cassandra to start talking about discrimination against women in the workplace. Etc.    

 

That's what I meant, I don't really understand what this dislike of "overt, intentional political statements" is suppossed to mean, if not that yu believe that a game without political statements it's possible... The other option is what? that you're saying that you just want your political propaganda to be subtle so you can take it in without even noticing it?