432 réponses à ce sujet

[Lebanese Dude]

As ive stated before Dorian quest/character etc is fine.Its a 'I have Daddy issues'

The Krem revelation dialogue i felt was not , you were not given any choice but to get scolded at , i felt forced into a position where i felt belittled when i brought it up , because you know it was/could have been a shock discovery , i bet some people didn't know or at least had slight suspicions, but the option was only 'Your a woman?' proceed to be made to feel guilty (need to do a replay , last few times i havn't bothered talking to krem much because of mentioned reason)

Consider who you were talking to.

Iron Bull is super protective of his Chargers. You questioning the gender of a person he lost an eye defending is going to ****** him off.

There should be another dialogue option where you don't sound like an ass when you're confused about it though I agree. At the moment you can be nonchalant about it, supportive, or confused by it. While the first two should be the norm in real life, it's not like everyone is aware of the issue yet.

[MrSnoozer]

What I didn't like about questioning Krem was that there was no option to question him about it without coming off as a d-bag.

 

So politely, my IQ just ignores it and changes the subject.

Yeah which in itself is fine , i'd rather just not bring it up than the way it was written. What Krem is is not up for dicussion , what the IQ said and the response i found to be troubling, its just made to make you as the player feel guilty

[TevinterSupremacist]

What is the purpose of art?Not just to entertain us, art engages us, art make us empathize and think.Think about the world, about morality and think about people in general.

[opinion]

[TevinterSupremacist]

What's political about a person wanting to be identified by whatever they want to be identified? 

The political part starts when bw writers don't let the iq reject/question said choice and/or use she/her pronouns instead of he/him.

[Lebanese Dude]

The political part starts when bw writers don't let the iq reject/question said choice and/or use she/her pronouns instead of he/him.

You can't because Iron Bull would gore you where you stood if you had. The PC isn't as stupid as the player fortunately.

Jokes aside, it would be naive to say it isn't a statement to include a transgender character. Why not though? It's an issue that is worth tackling, and the overreaction is exactly the sort they expected.

You not having the option to refuse it is no different than you not being able to condone the rape of Zathrians kid in DAO even if you were roleplaying a despicable scumbag. It's territory they have zero interest in crossing because it's flat out wrong to even entertain the notion, even in a video game.

Don't make a big deal out of it. The only one making it personal is you.

Maybe when transgender people have equal rights and are accepted throughout the world, it'll be comparatively "alright" to include "controversial" negative opinions about them in games since the real world doesn't mirror it anymore. Until then, you're literally asking to kick a man while he's down.

[Fearsome1]

I'm straight, Dorian is one of the better companions and I enjoyed his back story. He's a favorite of mine too. Bioware handled this well, so criticisms lobbed against this character seem picayune to me.  Krem was just more of the same, and he is another well done npc. I was surprised after they took a few extra steps to establish not only Krem, but the nice tavern scene with all of the Chargers, that if you chose to sacrifice them later on, that a more fleshed out cut scene to show their deaths was not made?

 

[I mean come on, Krem's voice actor was FemShep herself -Jennifer Hale?]

[Hobbes]

 

Iron Bull not preachy? Jesus, the only way they could've made that scene with him and Krem more preachy if there was a black gospel choir on the background saying "Amen!" or "Say it girlfriend!" after every line of his. Dorian was okay, but the Krem scene was cringeworthy at best, I haven't felt so patronised in a Western game in a long, long time.

I agree, the whole Krem thing came off as incredibly preachy in my eyes.  I sit down and ask a few questions and I felt like I was being lectured on how its alright to be transgendered, how dare people judge etc etc etc.  I mean, I have zero problems with transgendered people, I don't think people should judge them and I liked Krem in the game, but I don't need a lecture and just felt that whole thing was poorly done.   It felt forced in my opinion.   In every subsequent playthrough I just leave it, no questions for Krem about how he used to be a lady, makes things a lot more enjoyable.

 

As for Dorian, I didn't really have a problem with his quest.  It felt a little cliched at times, but overall I felt it was well done.  Also I dib't think the main focus of the quest is meant to be about him being gay, there is much more to it than that.  Sure him being gay is a contributing factor to the core issue, but the core issue itself isn't that.  I recommend anyone that thinks that to replay/rewatch that scene again and this time play close attention to what is being said between Dorian and his father.

[Lebanese Dude]

 In every subsequent playthrough I just leave it, no questions for Krem about how he used to be a lady

So ... Mission Accomplished?

[Rannik]

Grow up and check your privilege.

 

[papercut_ninja]

I remember being preached to a lot by Josephine...and Mother Giselle...Iron Bull and Krem, not so much...they were both pretty cool and relaxed dudes to me...

[Lebanese Dude]

Clearly haven't grown up though.

[TevinterSupremacist]

it's flat out wrong to even entertain the notion, even in a video game.

This isn't a thing. You might think it is a thing, but it isn't a thing.

[Rannik]

Clearly haven't grown up though.

 

If your definition of growing up is mixing videogames with reality I rather stay sane young for as long as possible.

[Lebanese Dude]

This isn't a thing. You might think it is a thing, but it isn't a thing.

Your naïveté is showing my dear.

A game is a medium that doesn't leave much room for discussion given its heavily visual nature.

So including wildly controversial angles to major current issues nonchalantly isn't as simple as you claim.

[Lebanese Dude]

If your definition of growing up is mixing videogames with reality I rather stay sane young for as long as possible.

Video games are created by humans. Like any creation they emulate the real world or imagination, and the latter is based on reinterpreting reality.

In short, everything is based on reality.

[TevinterSupremacist]

Your naïveté is showing my dear.

Do you have any arguments to support your patronising insult, or just felt like dropping it for shits and giggles?

[Lebanese Dude]

Do you have any arguments to support your patronising insult, or just felt like dropping it for shits and giggles?

Edited but I'll rephrase.

Games don't leave much room for discussion. What's presented is what's given without much written context.

So they can't afford to provide positive affirmation about negative issues unless the entire game premise is based on it. In DA the subject of racism is presented heavily, but it is part of the overarching theme of Dragon Age. Even still, it's presented subtly in the form of actually different races.

Sexual identities aren't a major theme in DA, so it's far simpler to treat them nonchalantly or with a laissez-faire attitude.

The exception is its importance in Tevinter, hence the issues with Dorian and Krem. Still it had to be tackled carefully.

[TevinterSupremacist]

Games don't leave much room for discussion. What's presented is what's given without much written context.

So they can't afford to provide positive affirmation about negative issues unless the entire game premise is based on it.

Allowing pc to take an action =/= positive affirmation of that action.

[Draining Dragon]

Clearly haven't grown up though.

Ah, now we know what Garrus did with the stick up his ass. He started lending it out.

[ThelLastTruePatriot]

 i made an example with Iron Bull and Krem for a reason. if you fail to remember this scene i suggest you to replay it. Because this is where you get this feeling about liberal ideas being showed down your throat whatever you like it or not.

 I just love how liberal and conservative are flung about like four letter words. I also like how you are grasping at straws where there are none to grasp. I can make the same argument that bioware allowing you to execute prisoners is them condoning murder, and they are "forcing it down our throats" it sounds stupid when you say it out loud.

[Lebanese Dude]

Allowing pc to take an action =/= positive affirmation of that action.

It's not that simple.

The mere existence of the option can be misconstrued as potentially supporting it, and this can potentially lead to negative press. In this case it's not worth it.

This is why few games give you the options to even discuss these issues.

Video games aren't exempt from scrutiny.

[TevinterSupremacist]

It's not that simple.

The mere existence of the option can be misconstrued as potentially supporting it, and this can potentially lead to negative press.

This is why few games give you the options to even discuss these issues.

Video games aren't exempt from scrutiny.

It is. Allowing pc to take an action and positive affirmation of the action are two different things. They're not the same thing, this isn't up for debate. They are physically two different actions.

 

"Misconstructed" being the key word here. So you agree that it would be an erroneous deduction then?

 

Scrutiny is fine, but incorrect deductions aren't to be respected. If you just want to say bioware is afraid of risks and won't allow you to step out of politically correct positions, for the sake of their income, I won't disagree, though.

[Lebanese Dude]

Ah, now we know what Garrus did with the stick up his ass. He started lending it out.

It's an ongoing human rights issue and i find joking about it to be rather crude and immature.

Implying otherwise is ignorant.

The stick up my ass is because I was almost subjected to this form of torture. Pardon me for disliking the notion of someone finding it groan-worthy to discuss.

[Lebanese Dude]

It is. Allowing pc to take an action and positive affirmation of the action are two different things. They're not the same thing, this isn't up for debate. They are physically two different actions.

"Misconstructed" being the key word here. So you agree that it would be an erroneous deduction then?

Scrutiny is fine, but incorrect deductions aren't to be respected. If you just want to say bioware is afraid of risks and won't allow you to step out of politically correct positions, for the sake of their income, I won't disagree, though.

The key is choosing what boundaries to cross. Some issues, such as conflicts of faith and racism are deemed alright because the game spends a significant amount dealing with them. These issues are currently quite controversial as well, so tackling them isn't easy.

If half the game was about sexual identifies, then the option to refuse the notion becomes more acceptable as the game supposedly tackles it more directly. Imagine if the conflicts between humans and elves was replaced by a conflict between men and women, for example.

So more tangential issues in the DA universe like women's rights and sexual identites get different treatments.

Regarding the condoning part.

Programming something into the game is condoning the option. There is no difference.

They are in control, and you merely have the option to pick it.

Some options like killing are ironically more acceptable than those that deal with currently controversial opinions about widely discussed issues.

So yes, erroneous deductions can ruin anything. Just look at the current Charlie Hebdo issue regarding misunderstandings regarding the nature of free speech.