432 réponses à ce sujet

[Semyaza82]

Okay, fair enough.  I do think most everything that could be said on the topic has been said.

 

Also, thank you for remaining civil.  I understand this is not easy to talk about, but I am glad we can talk about without resorting to theatrics. 

We should stop being so nice and reasonable - we'll break the internet

[TevinterSupremacist]

The key is choosing what boundaries to cross. Some issues, such as conflicts of faith and racism are deemed alright because the game spends a significant amount dealing with them. These issues are currently quite controversial as well, so tackling them isn't easy.

Programming something into the game is condoning the option. There is no difference.

Some options like killing are ironically more acceptable than those that deal with currently controversial opinions about widely discussed issues.
So yes, erroneous deductions can ruin anything. Just look at the current Charlie Hebdo issue regarding misunderstandings regarding the nature of free speech.

I don't think it's anyone's place to say where the limit of "necessary expansion upon a topic in order for allowing pc to take controversial stance on it" is. I don't think think these two are related at all.

 

Yes, there is, unless murders for personal profit (see prisoner in DA:O) are ok because the options exist.

 

Ya, people tend to have clouded/hypocritical opinions on what should pass as acceptable and what not.

Yes, covering your ass from bad press due to stupidity is a valid option. But it's just that. No idea who Charlie Hebdo is and what happened.

[stonerbishop]

Ok, been away from this thread for a bit but I have to comment on one part.

People that are saying such and such is unethical or can't let player choose because of poor taste or on going human rights, etc.

THIS WHOLE GAME INVOLVES SERIALLY MURDERING PEOPLE.

How is that OK but not giving other options in relation to this? To be clear, I support 100% the inclusion of these stories and would like to see more representative populations in games, but these games were founded on player choices.

Another thread talks about DAO killing leliana and it seems like few people did that route, but the Choice was there.

How is this issue anymore free from ethically unsound choices because of (real) world politics? Do you think slavery doesn't exist today? I can, in DA 2 give fenris to slavers.

That's just one example. These games explore weird morality and I like that. I can RP a mass murdering scumbag who 'cleanses' a tower of blood mages even though not all of them are. It doesn't mean I'm going to go murder a bunch of people irl. So, why can't I do a playthrough where my Character is homophobic, or just an *******. (I would probably only do it once to see the content, then never again, personally.)

Ok, done ranting. Whew

[stonerbishop]

Also, Laidlaw confirms that in DA4, you literally won't be able to beat the final boss unless you engage in gay sex.

DA 4: The gayening

[Lebanese Dude]

THIS WHOLE GAME INVOLVES SERIALLY MURDERING PEOPLE.
 

 

 

 

Yes, there is, unless murders for personal profit (see prisoner in DA:O) are ok because the options exist.

 

Ya, people tend to have clouded/hypocritical opinions on what should pass as acceptable and what not.

Yes, covering your ass from bad press due to stupidity is a valid option. But it's just that. No idea who Charlie Hebdo is and what happened.

 

 

It's ironic and hypocritical but it's true.

 

We're relatively desensitized towards physical violence in media. It's not exactly rational but it is what it is.

 

I mean... people have no problem with seeing people get punched or killed. Look at the hundreds of war games out there. How many serial killer or thriller movies have you seen compared to movies that discuss mental health issues? People don't go to Jurassic Park movies to see someone come to terms with their love for their girlfriend. They go to see someone get eaten.

As soon as the human pysche enters the picture, things get personal, and boundaries start to form.

 

It is what it is.

[Semyaza82]

Ok, been away from this thread for a bit but I have to comment on one part.

People that are saying such and such is unethical or can't let player choose because of poor taste or on going human rights, etc.

THIS WHOLE GAME INVOLVES SERIALLY MURDERING PEOPLE.

How is that OK but not giving other options in relation to this? To be clear, I support 100% the inclusion of these stories and would like to see more representative populations in games, but these games were founded on player choices.

Another thread talks about DAO killing leliana and it seems like few people did that route, but the Choice was there.

How is this issue anymore free from ethically unsound choices because of (real) world politics? Do you think slavery doesn't exist today? I can, in DA 2 give fenris to slavers.

That's just one example. These games explore weird morality and I like that. I can RP a mass murdering scumbag who 'cleanses' a tower of blood mages even though not all of them are. It doesn't mean I'm going to go murder a bunch of people irl. So, why can't I do a playthrough where my Character is homophobic, or just an *******. (I would probably only do it once to see the content, then never again, personally.)

Ok, done ranting. Whew

   I get where you are coming from but I think the big difference is that no one sane would seriously argue that forcing people into slavery or murdering people are acceptable choices in real life. By contrast plenty of people do argue that transphobic, sexist and homophobic attitudes and behaviors are acceptable. 

[Darth Death]

Today I learned (again) that accepting people for who they are is a liberal agenda, people wanting to be respected despite their sexual orientation is a political issue, and being unashamed of who you are makes you a stereotype.

 

Until that's not the case, art will continue to reflect this, 'shoving it down your throats' until you realize there is nothing liberal or political about common human decency and respect.

 

Only once everyone respects each other for who they are, once there's no more drama and tragedy in it, will it become a story not worth telling anymore.

A wise person isn't accepting of everything nor everyone. 

[Lebanese Dude]

   I get where you are coming from but I think the big difference is that no one sane would seriously argue that forcing people into slavery or murdering people are acceptable choices in real life

 

Not in all cultures

[Semyaza82]

Not in all cultures

Sadly true! 

[Zwingtanz]

I could do without blood magic straight camp too, tbh.

[yankblan]

That's why I can't stand Iron Bull and the rest of the Qunari's take on poverty, they continue to shove their socialist agenda down our throats "Everyone has a job and no one goes hungry in the Qun unlike the rampant poverty created by your aristocratic capitalist ideals."  Even Dorian "At least in tevinter they can just become slaves and be kept warm and dry as opposed to living in slums dying of the cold like you people do with your poor."

 

You're way over-analyzing, there.  Why can't different countries have different systems/economies/values?  Each "argument" or side is counter-balanced some way; yes the Qun look like a socialist country, but on the other end, they are not free.  It's like people growing up in religious states, you are "formed" in a way, that you never have or get to question (some Islamic countries for instance, or the censorship of Google in China).

 

The Qun we see in DA2 are basically drones, and the ones that break from that are immediately hunted down.  To me, that's more Totalitarian than socialist.  That's what make the universe interesting; if every race was savage capitalism, or middle ground, or totally socialist, it wouldn't work.  Basically Tevinter is south of Mason-Dixon, Ferelden is Canada/USA, Orlais is France, Qunari country (what is the officail name BTW) is North Korea.  The Elves could be Native-Americans or Mayan.

 

Plus as the PC, you get to choose to agree or disagree with what they say.  To me that is far from forced.  And the whole gay thing, you have mother Giselle playing the role of a Christian idiot with her disapproval of Dorian.

[Lebanese Dude]

 

 And the whole gay thing, you have mother Giselle playing the role of a Christian idiot with her disapproval of Dorian.

 

There's no need to single out Christians here. It's also less about disapproving about homosexuality and more about Dorian being from Tevinter.

[yankblan]

 

 

I agree, the whole Krem thing came off as incredibly preachy in my eyes.  I sit down and ask a few questions and I felt like I was being lectured on how its alright to be transgendered, how dare people judge etc etc etc.  I mean, I have zero problems with transgendered people, I don't think people should judge them and I liked Krem in the game, but I don't need a lecture and just felt that whole thing was poorly done.   It felt forced in my opinion.   In every subsequent playthrough I just leave it, no questions for Krem about how he used to be a lady, makes things a lot more enjoyable.

 

As for Dorian, I didn't really have a problem with his quest.  It felt a little cliched at times, but overall I felt it was well done.  Also I dib't think the main focus of the quest is meant to be about him being gay, there is much more to it than that.  Sure him being gay is a contributing factor to the core issue, but the core issue itself isn't that.  I recommend anyone that thinks that to replay/rewatch that scene again and this time play close attention to what is being said between Dorian and his father.

 

 

Except that, IRL, would you go there? Of course not, most people wouldn't.  But since being 1s and 0s on a machine allows you to do that (see the definition of RPG), you did!  And you got the response that you should expect, in most cases.

 

I mean, say you work with/see a transgender most days, unless you were close friends, you would just go, so he's/she's a trans, ok.  That's it.  The fact that neither Bull or Krem bring it up takes out the forced/moralizing aspect of it, and it is a character's opinion, mind you.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

OP: i agree

i don't need real life in a game, i don't care for npc sexuality (he can be in love with a building, whatever, i'd still like the char). what i want is an interesting quest that will give me some insight into char's unique background. Dorian talking with his father... why inq was even there? that was a private conversation. nothing new to learn about character, history/setting. i'd love to know more about 'time magic' instead!

and the confrontation with mother Giselle... why was that even there? all she could say was rubbish anyway. the whole thing was just... weird.

 

realistic fights are wrong but eavesdropping very personal conversations is fine... ok then, good to know.

[yankblan]

I don't think it's anyone's place to say where the limit of "necessary expansion upon a topic in order for allowing pc to take controversial stance on it" is. I don't think think these two are related at all.

 

Yes, there is, unless murders for personal profit (see prisoner in DA:O) are ok because the options exist.

 

Ya, people tend to have clouded/hypocritical opinions on what should pass as acceptable and what not.

Yes, covering your ass from bad press due to stupidity is a valid option. But it's just that. No idea who Charlie Hebdo is and what happened.

 

Charlie Hebdo is French satirical magazine that probed multiple times at Islam (and the pope too, to be fair), among other MANY social issues (woman's rights, animal rights, gay rights, free speech, etc) and that got hit by a terrorist attack.  Killers entered the editorial room and shot down cartoonists and editors (they also shot down policemen, you can see a vid where they execute an injured cop right there in the street) for insulting Mahomet (muslim prophet) among other things.

 

France is dealing with a serious problem with muslim extremists, where the conflict starts and stops, who's at fault; well, that is another issue and debatable to no end and guaranteed to get ugly!

[yankblan]

There's no need to single out Christians here. It's also less about disapproving about homosexuality and more about Dorian being from Tevinter.

 

Yeah, I guess, but it didn't fit my narrative!    And I will single out christians until they stop with the hypocrisy; also Christianism is a lot like Catholicism (which I was raised in), so I can't speak of Islam, Judaism or else without sounding like a fool.

[NM_Che56]

Wow...I played this game and did not feel like this was a focus.  Honestly, based on the choices I made and the conversation options I picked, I would have no reason to suspect that he was gay.  It frankly never came up.  Hell, the way I heard the conversation, Dorian objected to an arranged marriage.  

 

So, I've come to conclude that people who are this outraged by "liberal views" are looking for something to bother them.  Honestly, I doubt most people would've even noticed had it not been for the pre-release coverage about Dorian.  

[Draining Dragon]

Yeah, I guess, but it didn't fit my narrative!    And I will single out christians until they stop with the hypocrisy; also Christianism is a lot like Catholicism (which I was raised in), so I can't speak of Islam, Judaism or else without sounding like a fool.

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity.

Also, I don't get why people single out Christianity when discussing this topic. It's not like it's any less tolerant than Judaism or Islam.

[yankblan]

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity.

Also, I don't get why people single out Christianity when discussing this topic. It's not like it's any less tolerant than Judaism or Islam.

 

Simple, I'm a white male.  If I criticize Judaism or Islam, I come out as racist or antisemite; while I mean to criticize the religion, not the population.  And also I'm in NA, so christianity/catholics/mormons all that good stuff and their derivatives are predominant here.  Context, that's all.

 

Edit: also, Christians in the US are pretty vocal about the gay thing; see the old guy from Duck Dynasty, Torii Hunter, and a ton more; but these two recent ones come to mind.

 

Edit #2: thanks for the clarification, I never know which goes where in the hierarchy of the wholy trinity tree.

[Grieving Natashina]

I've been content to mostly just watch this conversation, but can we please not bring real world religion any further into this?  Yes, the Chantry in Thedas does have some parallels to the Judeo-Christian religions, but it isn't meant to be a perfect representation of it.  

 

Plus, a person's religion doesn't always dictate their personal opinions.  So please drop this aspect, as this conversation has had some pretty good points all around, and I'd rather not see it get locked due to bringing RL religion too far into this.  

[stonerbishop]

I get where you are coming from but I think the big difference is that no one sane would seriously argue that forcing people into slavery or murdering people are acceptable choices in real life. By contrast plenty of people do argue that transphobic, sexist and homophobic attitudes and behaviors are acceptable.

Difference is you called one group sane and not the other. Are you saying they are sane for their attitudes but murderers are inherently insane?

Confused

Also I doubt the people running the sex slave trade in eastern Europe are all insane

[KBomb]

Personally, I like that if you ask Krem a rude question you get served. You should.

If you ask him when he knew, he talks about it a bit.

[Zwingtanz]

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity.

Also, I don't get why people single out Christianity when discussing this topic. It's not like it's any less tolerant than Judaism or Islam.

Hating on Christianity is in. Hating on Jews or Muslims makes you racist.

[MACharlie1]

Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor say hello. 

What I mean by addressing it is actually have a discussion about liking the same sex. For Traynor and Cortez, it's an ideal world for the homosexual community because nobody questions it - it just is. It isn't an issue whatsoever for anyone.