432 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Counter-example: Krem. I think Bioware changed the Qun for that, and that I resent. It's one thing to create a world where that message can be sent convincingly in the first place, but quite another to change it at some point to make it so. If the writers refuse to be bound by what they've written earlier, there may come a point where plausible worldbuilding ceases to have any meaning.

 

I thought was a misstep as well. The Iron Bull's cheery affirmation in response to Krem's life choices just seemed completely at odds with how the Qun was portrayed in DA:O. The Bull's tone also made it feel more like an after school special with a message, rather than natural dialogue within the game world.

 

I think Krem would have been handled better if the Iron Bull didn't respond with affirmation, and instead just didn't care so long as Krem was good at killing things. If questioned about Krem's lifestyle choices being at odds with the Qun, his response could reflect Bull's own doubts about the Qun and the internal conflict between being a Qunari, and the Tal Vashoth identity that was starting to become more than just a cover.

[NaclynE]

He's by far my favorite character in the game; I love the banter he has with Sera and Varric, and he has a voice I bloody wish I had. But I'm a little disappointed that his personal mission was solely based on him being gay. I still remember Bioware complaining about the press focusing solely on Dorian for being gay, but then they make one of his moments in the spotlight be about his dad and Dorian's homosexuality.

 

I would much have prefered it if his personal mission be about a combination of his nationality, magical abilities, and his homosexual then just solely the one thing. Anyone else agree?

 

Well believe it or not I had Draven (male 2h warrior) romance Dorian but in that part of the quest when I picked the "Don't leave it like this" choice I was SHOCKED about where the conversation went. It turns out that this wasn't about Dorian being gay but how the dad was super duper worried about Dorian surviving his battle alongside the inquisitor since he knows Dorian left him with a big huff over the whole gay issue and was worried if he was alive. The father sure is still un-nerved about Dorian being gay but he's slowly but surely accepting him for being who he is. The father is just very concerned about Dorian staying alive and wants him to come home. Dorian realized he kind of jumped the gun a tad and it sounded like they patched things up a tad where they talked about likes and dislikes. I went with the heart option and...well...lol....was....unexpected. It started the romance between my guy and Dorian. Was going for Cassandra but i'll do two game saves to see how the relationship goes.

[Semyaza82]

Difference is you called one group sane and not the other. Are you saying they are sane for their attitudes but murderers are inherently insane?

Confused

Also I doubt the people running the sex slave trade in eastern Europe are all insane

Didn't mean murderers or slave traders themselves were insane - meant that no sane person would actually argue that these are good things for people to be doing. Should perhaps have said 'moral, rational person' or something like that. 

[Lewie]

To go back to the point in question I have never felt that any idea of any kind was being pushed on me, in any way shape or form. I don't judge any character on their sexual preference because to do that I am saying they should conform to a certain way which is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.

 

Surely if someone is gay or lesbian or straight they are allowed to have varying personalities? For gods sake stop annihilating peoples personalities and comparing them to stereotypical bull.

 

Give it a rest.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I find it pretty sad that so many people get angry when a LGBT character mentions their sexuality & see it as pushing the "liberal (gay) agenda" but straight characters showing their sexuality is perfectly ok

[Biotic Flash Kick]

and as much i love dorian

 

i dont get to punch him the face as much as  i want too T___T

[Lewie]

According to this thread I should judge Dorian, or anyone it seems for being gay.

 

The game never showed me that, these forums did, which frankly is pretty sad.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

Want to hear a little Tevinter wisdom?  You never really know a man until you've had a drink and a fistfight with him.

 

Drunkquizator: I WANT TO GET TO KNOW YOU *punches out dorian*

[Eonetic]

I think Dorian was extremely well made and didnt feel forced at all.

 

Krem on the other hand is one of the worst examples of LGBT characters i have ever seen.

When a developer contradicts its own lore in order to have an LGBT character things have gotten out of hand -.- 

Add to that most conversations about/with Krem feels like a lecture just kills all the believability.

 

It literally felt like a BioWare employee was lecturing me through the game on LGBT which not only pulls me out of the game it's incredibly annoying aswell.

[KBomb]

I think Dorian was extremely well made and didnt feel forced at all.

 

Krem on the other hand is one of the worst examples of LGBT characters i have ever seen.

When a developer contradicts its own lore in order to have an LGBT character things have gotten out of hand -.- 

Add to that most conversations about/with Krem feels like a lecture just kills all the believability.

 

It literally felt like a BioWare employee was lecturing me through the game on LGBT which not only pulls me out of the game it's incredibly annoying aswell.

It was one conversation. Just one. After that, you never had to bring it up again. 

 

What lecture is everyone receiving? I think I missed it. I asked her how long she knew and she answered, then her Bull had a short exchange and it was over. We swiftly moved on to the mage who isn't a mage. 

 

Also--and I ask this out of genuine curiosity, because I rarely recruited Sten--- but how are they contradicting the lore by allowing Bull to say Krem would be accepted? 

[Biotic Flash Kick]

I think Dorian was extremely well made and didnt feel forced at all.

 

Krem on the other hand is one of the worst examples of LGBT characters i have ever seen.

When a developer contradicts its own lore in order to have an LGBT character things have gotten out of hand -.- 

Add to that most conversations about/with Krem feels like a lecture just kills all the believability.

 

It literally felt like a BioWare employee was lecturing me through the game on LGBT which not only pulls me out of the game it's incredibly annoying aswell.

you got that backwards so hard

krem is fine

 

dorian's whole arc is

DADDY DOESNT LOVE ME

 

it's almsot like DG projected himself onto dorian

[Eonetic]

It was one conversation. Just one. After that, you never had to bring it up again. 

 

What lecture is everyone receiving? I think I missed it. I asked her how long she knew and she answered, then her Bull had a short exchange and it was over. We swiftly moved on to the mage who isn't a mage. 

 

Also--and I ask this out of genuine curiosity, because I rarely recruited Sten--- but how are they contradicting the lore by allowing Bull to say Krem would be accepted? 

Sten in DAO specifically states that the the female warden cannot be a warrior and woman at the same time.

He also specifically says that people cannot change the way they were born that such matters are out of their control.

 

 

 

And so logically the Qun would view a person born as a woman but identifying as a man to be wrong.

 

This video is the conversation.

[KBomb]

Sten in DAO specifically states that the the female warden cannot be a warrior and woman at the same time.

He also specifically says that people cannot change the way they were born that such matters are out of their control.

 

 

 

And so logically the Qun would view a person born as a woman but identifying as a man to be wrong.

 

This video is the conversation.

But Krem isn't a woman. He feels as though he was born a man. So, if she were converted to the Qun, he would be a man who is a warrior. 

 

Unless there is evidence that there are no transgendered in the Qun at all. Is there any lore anywhere stating that the Qun doesn't accept that if a person is born with female anatomy, but knows themselves to be male, are judged based on their bits alone? Is there any contradicting lore showing how they handle homosexuals and transgendered, or are we just utilizing this theory because Sten says a woman can't be a warrior? Is there any Qun lore that supports what they believe makes a gender a gender?  Because again, Krem isn't a woman. 

 

I wouldn't really trust much of what Sten says anyway. This is a man who murdered an entire family because he couldn't find his sword. Then he pretty much hates on you and thinks you're useless if you're a woman, until you find his sword and then he is your bbf. 

 

Edit: Unless you're talking about the part where Sten is saying a woman shouldn't want to be a man, or can't choose to be a man. Which again, Krem is not doing either. She isn't pretending to be a man, or "choosing" to be one. So, unless there is some Qun lore out there stating that they don't recognize transgendered people, I don't see how it's a recon. 

[Lewie]

you got that backwards so hard

krem is fine

 

dorian's whole arc is

DADDY DOESNT LOVE ME

 

it's almsot like DG projected himself onto dorian

It you want to make a valid point make it, resorting to disgusting, immature remarks won't help.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

It you want to make a valid point make it, resorting to disgusting, immature remarks won't help.

Lol wat

 

that was literally dorian's arc

that was it

 

he was gay and his father woudnt accept it

that is his companion quest

 

being gay isnt something shocking

you could have m/m with zev since origins

 

being gay is kind of mundane

someone telling me they are gay is like them telling me what their favorite color is

 

yellow

okay cool

 

but that is what his character is based on. something so mundane.

the whole "y doesnt love me because x" is a old ass trope

let it die

[Eonetic]

But Krem isn't a woman. He feels as though he was born a man. So, if she were converted to the Qun, he would be a man who is a warrior. 

 

Unless there is evidence that there are no transgendered in the Qun at all. Is there any lore anywhere stating that the Qun doesn't accept that if a person is born with female anatomy, but knows themselves to be male, are judged based on their bits alone? Is there any contradicting lore showing how they handle homosexuals and transgendered, or are we just utilizing this theory because Sten says a woman can't be a warrior? Is there any Qun lore that supports what they believe makes a gender a gender?  Because again, Krem isn't a woman. 

 

I wouldn't really trust much of what Sten says anyway. This is a man who murdered an entire family because he couldn't find his sword. Then he pretty much hates on you and thinks you're useless if you're a woman, until you find his sword and then he is your bbf. 

I know Krem isnt a a woman.

 

based of everything we know of the Qun why would this be an exception?

Logically transexuality would not exist (or rather not be acknowledged) in the Qun and people who openly identified as a man/woman would just be re-educated.

 

 

This is inconsistent with the Qun as a whole.

[Zered]

But Krem isn't a woman. He feels as though he was born a man. So, if she were converted to the Qun, he would be a man who is a warrior. 

 

Unless there is evidence that there are no transgendered in the Qun at all. Is there any lore anywhere stating that the Qun doesn't accept that if a person is born with female anatomy, but knows themselves to be male, are judged based on their bits alone? Is there any contradicting lore showing how they handle homosexuals and transgendered, or are we just utilizing this theory because Sten says a woman can't be a warrior? Is there any Qun lore that supports what they believe makes a gender a gender?  Because again, Krem isn't a woman. 

 

I wouldn't really trust much of what Sten says anyway. This is a man who murdered an entire family because he couldn't find his sword. Then he pretty much hates on you and thinks you're useless if you're a woman, until you find his sword and then he is your bbf. 

 

Edit: Unless you're talking about the part where Sten is saying a woman shouldn't want to be a man, or can't choose to be a man. Which again, Krem is not doing either. She isn't pretending to be a man, or "choosing" to be one. So, unless there is some Qun lore out there stating that they don't recognize transgendered people, I don't see how it's a recon. 

 

Check this:
 

 

Warden: Why do you let the tamassrans control your life?
Sten: What makes it mine? It was theirs to begin with.
Warden: What does that mean?
Sten: They knew me before I was born. I was birthed on the day they chose. Placed into the world by their hands. When I die, it will be the tamassrans who note my passing. I am their work. What I do is for my people, always.
Warden: They made you, but they can't make decesions for you.
Sten: No need. I have been trained to choose as they would. There is little point in pursuing this, we should move on.

 

I doubt a persons feels on the matter are relevant.

[KBomb]

Lol wat

 

that was literally dorian's arc

that was it

 

he was gay and his father woudnt accept it

that is his companion quest

 

being gay isnt something shocking

you could have m/m with zev since origins

 

being gay is kind of mundane

someone telling me they are gay is like them telling me what their favorite color is

 

yellow

okay cool

 

but that is what his character is based on. something so mundane.

the whole "y doesnt love me because x" is a old ass trope

let it die

If you think his personal quest is about his father not accepting his homosexuality, then you missed the boat entirely. 

 

 

I know Krem isnt a a woman.

 

based of how the Qun works transexuality would not exist (or rather be acknowledged) and people who openly identified as a man/woman would just be re-educated.

 

This is just logic.

How do you know this? What examples do you have on how they treat transgendered? That certainly isn't the same circumstance as a woman one day deciding she doesn't like how women are treated, so she decides she'd rather be a man. How do you know the Qun would not accept that? I certainly haven't seen any lore, codex, letters, journal entries, etc to come to that conclusion. All I saw was Sten telling the female warden she can't be a warrior because she is a woman. A woman who identifies herself as a woman. Krem doesn't fall under that at all, so again, what logical conclusion are you drawing this from?

 

@Zered 

Yeah, still not seeing that as proof they would re-educate someone who is transgendered. If they "know", perhaps they would "know" that the person was meant to be other than what their anatomy dictated. 

[Charane]

Op his personal quest was a combination and reflection of all those titles you say you wished were his personal quest. 

 

 

I hardly think that scene was preachy. If someone told me they preferred the use of one pronoun over the other, I'd  acquiesce and do my best to remember their preferred pronoun. That's not preaching. That's respecting someone else's wishes.

 

Although I will admit that the affronted tone Iron Bull took if you chose to ask about was a bit much. I hadn't intended my Inquisitor to sound judgmental when I asked; I simply clicked on the next question dialog. In that regard, I can agree with you.

 

There are some truly cringe worthy conversations with characters about their sexuality as it lacks subtlety.I don't care what your sexual orientation is unless there is a physical attraction and/or I care enough about their character to want to know more about what makes them who they are. So why in the conversation mentioned by Winged silver ref Krem is his sexuality even a topic for discussion, he is an acquaintance not a potential LI neither someone you converse enough with to become friends. If characters cannot be written with more depth and or allocated enough game time for these personal stories to be explored, these personal topics are just jarring as all these posts and forum topics prove. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

jeez did you even read the thread? people have nothing against gay characters they are just saying that Dorians sexuality didn't need to be made such a huge deal and that it was heavy handed &forced

I did read it, i saw a few people acting like Dorian mentioning liking men or Krem's mere existence as pushing an agenda, just seems unnecessary to me