432 réponses à ce sujet

[Eonetic]

@KBomb

 

This is pointless and we are going in circles, let's just agree to disagree.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

I did read it, i saw a few people acting like Dorian mentioning liking men or Krem's mere existence as pushing an agenda, just seems unnecessary to me

Krem pushed the agenda of:

 

he find the baddies

we kill them

then we drink

plus wartable missions :3

[Zered]

 

@Zered 

Yeah, still not seeing that as proof they would re-educate someone who is transgendered. If they "know", perhaps they would "know" that the person was meant to be other than what their anatomy dictated. 

Uh how would they know if the kid can't even talk yet? It's not like they can read their mind.

[Lewie]

Lol wat

 

that was literally dorian's arc

that was it

 

he was gay and his father woudnt accept it

that is his companion quest

 

being gay isnt something shocking

you could have m/m with zev since origins

 

being gay is kind of mundane

someone telling me they are gay is like them telling me what their favorite color is

 

yellow

okay cool

 

but that is what his character is based on. something so mundane.

the whole "y doesnt love me because x" is a old ass trope

let it die

Okay then, when Cassandra told me she had been made tranquil I had a similar emotion. Sudden doubt.

 

But, you move on and care about the character in question regardless of sexuality or any other bull.

[KBomb]

Uh how would they know if the kid can't even talk yet? It's not like they can read their mind.

lol Yeah, you think? I think Sten was talking about which occupation and direction his life would take. He was born a male and identifies with a male. I have seen no lore stating how they treat or deal with transgendered. The only thing we have heard about is how they treat men who identify as men, and women who identify as women. Where is the contradiction?

[Biotic Flash Kick]

Okay then, when Cassandra told me she had been made tranquil I had a similar emotion. Sudden doubt.

 

But, you move on and care about the character in question regardless of sexuality or any other bull.

yeah i guess being tranquil isnt that interesting either

[Eonetic]

 

How do you know this? What examples do you have on how they treat transgendered? That certainly isn't the same circumstance as a woman one day deciding she doesn't like how women are treated, so she decides she'd rather be a man. How do you know the Qun would not accept that? I certainly haven't seen any lore, codex, letters, journal entries, etc to come to that conclusion. All I saw was Sten telling the female warden she can't be a warrior because she is a woman. A woman who identifies herself as a woman. Krem doesn't fall under that at all, so again, what logical conclusion are you drawing this from?

 

@Zered 

Yeah, still not seeing that as proof they would re-educate someone who is transgendered. If they "know", perhaps they would "know" that the person was meant to be other than what their anatomy dictated. 

"A person is born Qunari or Human or Elven or Dwarf, he doesn't choose that"

"We do not choose, we simply are"

Sten says this and Sten is a reliable source of information on the Qun seeing as he is fresh of the boat.

 

Why in hell would gender be an exception to this?

No i dont have a codex or anything i am merely basing this on what we know of the Qun so far and it's inconsistent.

 

Regardless i doubt neither you or me are going to change our thoughts on this.

[Lewie]

yeah i guess being tranquil isnt that interesting either

You are easily swayed from your so called point of view.

 

I don't wish to talk about this any further anyway so knock yourself out. 

[KBomb]

"A person is born Qunari or Human or Elven or Dwarf, he doesn't choose that"

"We do not choose, we simply are"

Sten says this and Sten is a reliable source of information on the Qun seeing as he is fresh of the boat.

 

Why in hell would gender be an exception to this?

No i dont have a codex or anything i am merely basing this on what we know of the Qun so far and it's inconsistent.

 

Regardless i doubt neither you or me are going to change our thoughts on this.

Because race isn't the same as gender? It seems to me that I once heard an elf state that once you join the Qun, you're qunari and your old race matters little. I could be wrong about that, though. Also, Sten is no more of a reliable source than Iron Bull. Especially since we know that they are on a need to know basis when it comes to Qun. Sten was a warrior, and so he was taught to be one. He may know nothing else.  And no, I doubt we will change each others mind. 

 

I have no problem conceding that they changed the lore, if there is lore to change. We have never seen anything at all about transgendered and as far as I know, homosexuals. So we really don't know how they would handle either of those. 

[Rannik]

Games don't leave much room for discussion. What's presented is what's given without much written context.

So they can't afford to provide positive affirmation about negative issues unless the entire game premise is based on it.

 

They can, there's absolutely no reason not and plenty of great studios have done it.

 

In fact... Guild Wars 2 (Point of no return) spoilers:

 

Spoiler

Just a few days ago Anet teased a expansion where one of the playable species are believed to be corrupted by the big baddie, which sparks a wave of hardcore  "let's kill them all" racism. Saying that this could open HUGE opportunities for storytelling and in-character roleplaying that would otherwise be impossible is an understatement.

 

 

After so many years it's sad to see MMOs (of all genres...) doing storytelling much better than Bioware, but hey... new blood  

[stonerbishop]

I didn't even know Krem was Transgender until the conversation. I was like wut, are u a woman. I liked it because I was surprised and yeah he and bull got a little preachy but I understand WHY they did.

I enjoyed the way it was done because there are plenty of people who don't know anything about Transgender people. Should we act like it's not a thing when some people have legitimate questions and misunderstanding?

Some say it's a game and they don't want that in their game. Well, don't play rpgs written by progressive companies.

Don't give them your money, don't support them, etc. Etc. It is your right.

This incident also led to one of the best lines in the game.

IB: I have horns and you shoot fireballs out of your ass. Who are we to judge

[Shahadem]

I thought Dorian's content was very well-handled.

 

The bit with Krem & the Iron Bull was a little ham-fisted though. 

 

I think that was Laurence Olivier level ham-fisting.

[KaiserShep]

I never really knew how cheesy Bull's dialogue sounded, because in the sit-down with the whole group, I avoided any dialogue that touched on the subject, because it just didn't seem like something worth mentioning. After hearing it, I prefer my initial approach of leaving well enough alone.

[Gaz83]

you know when people repeat themselfs too many times in order to make sure that others will listen. despite the fact that by repeating this one thing these people are  making fools of themselfs?

this is how BW behave.

Prime example, aside from Dorian, is Krem and Iron Bull's remark about Krem.

 

Basically BW is forcing liberal ideas through their game. And this is so annoying.

 

 

Treating others as equals irrespective of their sexuality or sexual identity isn't some grand liberal idea.

 

It's simply human decency and empathy. 

[Ryzaki]

Okay everyone who's getting lectured by Krem? I have no sympathy for you. Because you can easily avoid that lecture by minding your own damn business. Krem's gender has zero bearing on the Inquisitor.

 

You stick your nose in someone's business and get lectured for it? You deserve it.

[Ogillardetta]

Okay everyone who's getting lectured by Krem? I have no sympathy for you. Because you can easily avoid that lecture by minding your own damn business. Krem's gender has zero bearing on the Inquisitor.

 

You stick your nose in someone's business and get lectured for it? You deserve it.

Pretty much this. I didn't even know that you could get lectured by him before this thread.

[daveliam]

Okay everyone who's getting lectured by Krem? I have no sympathy for you. Because you can easily avoid that lecture by minding your own damn business. Krem's gender has zerotbearing on the Inquisitor.

 

You stick your nose in someone's business and get lectured for it? You deserve it.

 

Exactly.  I actually kind of hope that Krem has taken the brunt of this nosiness.  This way, if the people who don't see a problem with the nature of the probing questions ever meet a transman in real life, they will think twice about asking about these types of questions until they better suss out the situation to see if it would be welcomed.

[TevinterSupremacist]

I actually kind of hope that Krem has taken the brunt of this nosiness. 

This is beyond naive, even as far as hopes go by definition.

[stonerbishop]

Exactly.  I actually kind of hope that Krem has taken the brunt of this nosiness.  This way, if the people who don't see a problem with the nature of the probing questions ever meet a transman in real life, they will think twice about asking about these types of questions until they better suss out the situation to see if it would be welcomed.

This is why it's great to have it in a game. You can ask the questions and not hurt a real person. I see it as a learning opportunity

[wiccame]

I'm a lesbian irl and when I got his personal quest I double face palmed and groaned. Even I know Bioware is pushing a "gay agenda", and I honestly think straight guys would be more open to gay characters if their whole focus wasn't "Hello, I am character X and I'm gay. People cant accept me for who I am because I'm gay. Have I told you I'm gay?"

 

We are NOT all flamboyant, sex crazed, walking LGBT stereotypes irl so why are we being represented this way? I'm quite feminine, most of my friends are straight girls and the only difference between them & me in how we act is that I prefer a woman in my bed instead of a man

 

Just for once I'd like to see a character like Morrigan or Cullen be gay and be written where their sexuality is not the main focus of their character, an example of this would be Ellie from The Last Of Us. It detracts from the narrative and prevents straight people from identifying with them. A male can be strong/masculine and gay, just as a woman can be quite traditionally feminine but still identify as a lesbian.

 

Seriously Dorian & Sera are walking stereotypes and that just pisses me off to no end. Its the reason I refuse to romance either of them. Josephine, Cassandra and Iron Bull for me all the way (Well, my inquisitors anyway haha)

 

Sorry for the rant, I'm just glad someone brought this up and I can see why his character is so jarring for some.

And yet some people had issues with Anders not outright stating he is bisexual to a female character.  Seems Bioware can't please everyone for trying to please everyone.

 

But on topic. Dorian being gay was not the issue as other have said. It was just his father had plans for progressing his perfect legacy and Dorian being gay and not wanting to conform put that plan in jeapordy.

[KaiserShep]

Okay everyone who's getting lectured by Krem? I have no sympathy for you. Because you can easily avoid that lecture by minding your own damn business. Krem's gender has zero bearing on the Inquisitor.

 

You stick your nose in someone's business and get lectured for it? You deserve it.

 

Lol, I agree. I think that to some extent, it could also have something to do with it generally being in a player's nature to keep selecting all available options that investigate something, and it's not often that you'll have question options available that you have to actually think about whether or not they're appropriate to ask in the first place, in this case, I thought it was super inappropriate. I kinda feel similarly about the question you can ask the elven woman in Skyhold's garden that manages the apothecary. Like, what's the difference if she's a city elf? Why does Inky care? I suppose if the Inquisitor is an elf him/herself, but as a human, dwarf or qunari, it seems pretty irrelevant.