432 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

I think people just want the option to ask non stupid questions.  It's like with Wrex explaining the genophage in ME1.  There was no way Shepard could avoid comparing it the First Contact War, which is first class stupid.  Of course it's going to make Wrex angry.  I want a choice somewhere between "bumbling imbecile" and "magically knowledgeable about all things sensitive" but these are frequently the only options offered in situations like this.    

 

Yeah well I pretty much saw that as a stupid and nosy (not to mention irrelevant you just get introduced to someone and you bust out the "are you a woman?" card uh...) question just looking at it. *shrug* but ME1's issue was Shep flip flopped between brilliant and moron. (headed more towards moron in later installments though). But really I don't see how people thought that question was going to end well. You barely know Krem, you're asking this in front of all his friends, and it's a personal question. There's red flags all over the place.

[Nykara]

So firstly people complain because Bioware has no outright gay characters in the games. All where bi-sexual. Now that they do, people are complaining they are shoving ideals down their throats. Well guess what? They didn't. They did what the fans have been asking for, forever.

[Ryzaki]

The thing is, Krem is a video game character and not a RL person.  Who would you rather have people asking sensitive questions of, video game dude or RL transman?  As an above poster already stated, Krem can't get his feelings hurt.  But asking questions of Krem literally comes off as "if you don't 100% understand transgender you are an insensitive moron and you should feel bad."  If Krem is here to provide a positive face for transgender people in popular media making anyone who doesn't "get" it feel ashamed and lectured at isn't going to do much to improve the image.   I get that RL transpeople don't want to patiently explain their identity to random strangers all day.  Krem has this luxury though because he's just a bunch of pixels. 

 

He can't actually get his feelings hurt no but the devs wrote him to get aggravated at a personal question from someone he hardly knows. I don't see how that's preachy. Sometimes you butt in and get called off about it. Also if you want to understand it again why ask him about it in front of all his friends in a badgering way? You can talk to Krem after this conversation alone in a one on one setting if you're that curious. So yeah I can't sympathize with complaining that someone bite your head off for asking a personal question in front of a group of people especially since the answer to that question has nothing to do with you. This is stuff most people should've been taught as children? Or should've realized. I don't understand.

[Krypplingz]

I don't really get the issue about the Krem. It's an optional topic in one conversation, then two smaller conversations later if you are interested in the subject. And I don't think Krem comes off as hostile. More of "Not this again, can't we talk about something less politcal?".

 

Spoiler

Option 1: Why pass as a man? "You don't have to pass for a man to be a mercenary."
(Fair question, Krem could have been pulling a Ser Aveline. Maybe not polite, but fair)
Krem: "I'm not passing as a man" (He has had this conversation before, it didn't end well. He just wants to chill, drink beer and make fun of Bulls bosom.)

Option 2: Are you a woman? "Wait- are you? I didn't realize."
(A normal reaction when facing a reality different than your own)
Krem: "You didn't? Great now we can all talk about it." (Same reason as the other option,)

Option 3: "Did you always know?"
(A fair question. Sometimes people discover these things late in life.)
Krem: "Yes. It's not the most fortunate thing to know about yourself, growing up in Tevinter, one rung above slavery." (People can loose their eyes over things like these.)

All these options end with:
Iron Bull: "We have people like Krem in the Qun. They are treated like men, because they are men. And you are a man,Krem my adorable little baby face."
Different words of course, but Iron Bull is obviously just comforting his surrogate baby. He's like a mother hen to the chargers, of course he'll be defensive.

Option 4: And the rest of your crew?
Basically: Not my business I don't care, next topic please.

And that's it. Topic over. You can talk to Bull about it later. You basicly get: "Krem is Krem, end of discussion". You can also talk to Krem about it, he's pretty chill over it. Or you can move on with your life, maybe close a few breeches

 

As for Dorians quest: All I saw was the result when a desperate father tries to control his rebellious son. Bloodlines and appearences are big in Tevinter. Wrong moves can lead to your family loosing it's honor, status and lives. 

Long, nonsensible ramble below.

 

Spoiler

It's like having a daughter who shaves her hair, pierces her face and goes to controversial rock concerts. She wont listen to reason, so you talk with your coworkers who give you a pamphlet to a military camp which has been known to mellow out rebellious teens. So you try to send her off, but she runs away, flees the country and moves to Sweden.
There she joins a rockband lead by rumored terrorist and murderers. She wont respond to your letters, so you appeal to the bands manager, who arranges a meeting with you, her and the lead singer.
Your daughter shouts at you, telling you that you don't get her fashion and music choices, that the spirit of rock flows through her and that she will not continue your legacy as the world greatest doctor but will continue working with these rumored terrorrists.
But luckily, the lead singer is not a murdering terrorrist, but a kind, peacefull sort who just happens to like dark clothing. The lead singer sees that it's not about the hair, but maintaining a good quality of life and favorable reputation. Life as a doctor is cuthroat and controversial appearences might end up with you loosing everything.
So the leader intervenes, making the daughter understand your worries, but also showing you that this rock music is your daughters soul. And yes, her life will be hard as an aspiring musician in a controversial genre, but here she will blossom and be happy.
And you end your encounter at somewhat tense, but peacefull notes. And then, few years later, you attend the world greatest rock concert and gleam in joy at your daughter shredding that guitar to itty bitty pieces.

[Ryzaki]

Maybe it should be this way, but unfortunately it's not.  It's not surprising at all to me that my Inquisitor would be surprised or confused.  I've never met a transperson in RL (that I knew was a trasnperson anyway).  If not for the internet I would have 0 idea this was even a thing.  I didn't even know Krem was a transman until I saw those dialog options.  I just thought he was a sort of youngish dude.

 

Also the key point is here "why ask him about it in front of all his friend in a badgering way." This is precisely my point.  Why can I sound like a normal person when asking all the other Chargers personal questions, but I have no choice but to either 1) sound like a badgering ass or 2) act as though I already completely understand transgender when I talk to Krem? 

 

*Edit* Also, I know you can talk to Krem one on one later.  This is now the option I pick, but the first time through I have 0 way of knowing that's the case.  Moreover, the options are presented when Krem is introduced in a way that to me explicitly implies "here is where you can ask Krem questions if you want."  Maybe, Bioware needs to not let us ask questions with 6 other people around then.

 

And if that is really the case you should've picked the move on option? Your PC wouldn't have asked that question because the thought never occurred to them.

 

Those are not your only options. You have 3. Move the conversation along. Considering you can then ask Krem in depth about it later as well.

 

Or maybe you could not pick rude questions? Especially considering even the damn phrasing off the question in the dialogue wheel isn't tactful either. Why should anyone's ability to play a blunt untactful inquisitor be taken away because you couldn't resist clicking the choice?

[Ryzaki]

They don't have to remove the rude option.  I'd just like some other choice besides "be rude," "be all-knowing," or "move on."

 

It's a group conversation. Why do you want to bring it up in a group conversation? You have an option to be something besides that in a one on one setting.

 

This is astounding to me. People actually think it's appropriate to ask questions like that in a damn group setting with people they don't know that well.

 

Wow.

[daveliam]

This is beyond naive, even as far as hopes go by definition.

 

Of course it is.  But I'm the eternal optimist.  And, frankly, it was a little hyperbolic on my end.  I know Krem won't take the brunt of it, but perhaps his negative reaction might cause a few people to think twice before doing this to a transperson that they meet in real life.

 

And yet some people had issues with Anders not outright stating he is bisexual to a female character.  Seems Bioware can't please everyone for trying to please everyone.

 

But on topic. Dorian being gay was not the issue as other have said. It was just his father had plans for progressing his perfect legacy and Dorian being gay and not wanting to conform put that plan in jeapordy.

 

Ultimately, this is the reality.  There's literally no way possible to please everyone.  So Bioware has to just pick a direction and go with it.  That's what they did in this game.  They listened to player feedback ("All bisexual isn't 'realistic'"; "We want to see gay and lesbian characters") and decided to create a character who is unapologetically openly gay and that plays a role in his personal quest.  It's a story that many players can relate to and it had a bit of a twist on the classic version of the story.  At the same time, they included a character who is lesbian and her sexuality plays virtually no role in her story at all.  It's allowing two different takes on gay and lesbian character sexuality.  I applaud them and I'm happy that they went this direction.

[Ryzaki]

1) Bull has explicitly brought me here to meet the Chargers.  It's understood and condoned that I'm asking them all questions and getting to know them.

 

2) Without metagaming, I have 0 way of knowing I will be able to talk to Krem about this one on one later. 

 

To meet them not to probe into their personal lives.

 

Without metagaming you should realize it's a stupid question to ask in a group of people you hardly know regardless.

[TevinterSupremacist]

To meet them not to probe into their personal lives.

 

Without metagaming you should realize it's a stupid question to ask in a group of people you hardly know regardless.

You're the leader of the inquisition, whatever you deem is important to be known, gets to be asked. And if you're not sure, as a military leader, it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

I'm don't think an inquisitor who's never met a trans person before can understand why it shouldn't be asked in front of a group of mercenaries who supposedly know each other well. To understand that, you'd first need to know what this is about, otherwise you can't know if it should be talked about in private or not and why.

[daveliam]

You're the leader of the inquisition, whatever you deem is important to be known, gets to be asked. And if you're not sure, as a military leader, it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

I'm don't think an inquisitor who's never met a trans person before can understand why it shouldn't be asked in front of a group of mercenaries who supposedly know each other well. To understand that, you'd first need to know what this is about, otherwise you can't know if it should be talked about in private or not and why.

 

Right, and then you deal with the person's reaction to it.  It's the whole "freedom of speech" misunderstanding.  The Inquisitor can ask whatever s/he wants and Krem can respond however he wants.  I find Krem's reaction to be particularly realistic, to be honest. 

[TevinterSupremacist]

Right, and then you deal with the person's reaction to it.  It's the whole "freedom of speech" misunderstanding.  The Inquisitor can ask whatever s/he wants and Krem can respond however he wants.  I find Krem's reaction to be particularly realistic, to be honest. 

The problem is there is no non-stupid-of-course-Krem-will-get-mad way of asking, when asking is a necessity for rping purposes, given your position as quizzie. My issue isn't with how the writers wrote Krem's reaction, is with the list of possible ways of asking they wrote for the iq.

[daveliam]

The problem is there is no non-stupid-of-course-Krem-will-get-mad way of asking, when asking is a necessity for rping purposes, given your position as quizzie. My issue isn't with how the writers wrote Krem's reaction, is with the list of possible ways of asking they wrote for the iq.

 

They also didn't give the Inquisitor a chance to announce that s/he was also transgender.  They also didn't give the Inquisitor a chance to reject Krem altogether and just fire the Chargers on the spot.  They also didn't give the Inquisitor a chance to argue with Krem and his gender identity.  They also didn't give the Inquisitor a chance to congratulate Krem on being comfortable with himself.

 

There are a lot of options that they didn't give here.  The writers restrict your responses based on the story that they want to tell and this is the story that they wanted to tell here.  Plus, it's not 'necessity for rping purposes' because I rp'd my characters as willing leaders to the Inquisition and none of them felt the need to ask this question.  They also didn't feel the need to ask Blackwall about his past before the Wardens when he just indicates that he doesn't want to talk about it.  They also didn't feel the need to ask Vivienne about the purpose for the wyvern heart.  It might have been nice to have that option for the way that you wanted to rp your character, but it wasn't necessary to have in order to rp a character.

[TevinterSupremacist]

Putting a situation where unless a no-questions-asked-approach is taken you get talked down on is forced and given the political nature of the topic, preachy. The other examples of lack of options you presented aren't comparable because they don't result in you getting talked down on.

[Krypplingz]

There are some non rude questions the inquisitor can ask...

"Did you always know?" is not a rude question. It's fairly friendly curiosity.It also gives you info on Krem and then Bull adds info that similar things happen in the Qun and he respects the fact that Krem considers himself a man. 

"Wait- are you? I didn't know" Is not rude. It's an understandable surprise. It's also understandable that Krem doesn't want to have the discussion focus on his gender identity when there are five (?) other people and plenty of events you could be talking about. Bulls "lecture" is simply to calm the mood down and display acceptance to his friend. 

"You don't have to pass for a man to be a mercenary." It's not the nicest thing you can say, but Krem does come from a culture which does not allow men to be in a high ranking fighting position and Orlais was of similar mind before Ser Aveline.  The intention might be friendly, but it's understandable if Krem takes offence.

"Lets talk about the rest of your crew" and moving the topic along is also not rude at all, since Krems mention of binding breasts was supposed to be a short joke, not the next topic. 

 

But this running in circles is way off topic.

[luckybaer]

He's by far my favorite character in the game; I love the banter he has with Sera and Varric, and he has a voice I bloody wish I had. But I'm a little disappointed that his personal mission was solely based on him being gay. I still remember Bioware complaining about the press focusing solely on Dorian for being gay, but then they make one of his moments in the spotlight be about his dad and Dorian's homosexuality.

 

I would much have prefered it if his personal mission be about a combination of his nationality, magical abilities, and his homosexual then just solely the one thing. Anyone else agree?

Now that they've covered his being gay, they can focus on some of the other things that make Dorian interesting.  His being Tevinter and wanting to change the perception of Tevinter in the eyes of others, his scholarly interests, etc., etc.

[TinySquid]

There is a balance between keeping homosexuality/pansexuality/ect. out of video games and using said video game as a soap platform for your views. While I think Bioware tipped a bit too far into the latter, I applaud their attempt to walk that fine line.

 

As I saw a couple of people post, it seems there is this common idea among certain political circles that if you don't make a big deal out of someone's sexuality then you are "putting them in the closet." If someone doesn't explicitly talk about, revolve around, and force upon you their love preferences then the writers are not doing justice to the real-life struggles people face with said situations. 

This is simply not true. One of my favorite allegories: A boy who never really dated and never really talked about such things with his parents has gone off to college. At Christmas, he comes home much to his family's excitement. With him walks in another young man, whom the son introduces as his boyfriend. His parents greet him and they sit down and eat. There is no reason to made a conversational issue of their son's homosexuality because it doesn't matter to them either way.

 

That is how I think things should work. By focusing on someone's sexuality as their defining characteristic you do a great disservice to them. Not making it the center of attention doesn't force them in the closet. It shows respect for them.

[Traele]

There is a balance between keeping homosexuality/pansexuality/ect. out of video games and using said video game as a soap platform for your views. While I think Bioware tipped a bit too far into the latter, I applaud their attempt to walk that fine line.

 

As I saw a couple of people post, it seems there is this common idea among certain political circles that if you don't make a big deal out of someone's sexuality then you are "putting them in the closet." If someone doesn't explicitly talk about, revolve around, and force upon you their love preferences then the writers are not doing justice to the real-life struggles people face with said situations. 

This is simply not true. One of my favorite allegories: A boy who never really dated and never really talked about such things with his parents has gone off to college. At Christmas, he comes home much to his family's excitement. With him walks in another young man, whom the son introduces as his boyfriend. His parents greet him and they sit down and eat. There is no reason to made a conversational issue of their son's homosexuality because it doesn't matter to them either way.

 

That is how I think things should work. By focusing on someone's sexuality as their defining characteristic you do a great disservice to them. Not making it the center of attention doesn't force them in the closet. It shows respect for them.

 

But then people lose the innate sense of moral superiority garnered through demonstrating how accepting they are!