432 réponses à ce sujet

[SixWingedAngel18]

Except Sera isn't going through self-discovery and acceptance, either. She is who she is, and if you're a woman who's interested in her and not a total arseface, she's into you without any sort of shame or angsting about her identity. As a young lesbian with no identity issues, you might even say that Sera is even rarer an archetype. 

 

If you want Bioware to include an older gay man in their next game, that's cool; I'm on board. But that's an entirely separate issue from Dorian and Sera (who are themselves separate issues from each other). 

Yeah true, I didnt intend for the Sera debate to spiral like it did Whoops

[Ogillardetta]

Depends how sick he/she is...

 

So in my IQ's case... yeah.

I think my quizzy would settle on closing the door the laugh his ass off.

[SixWingedAngel18]

Or have Roderick survive and hook up with Giselle, and you can walk in on them in that same room that Morrigan eventually keeps the Eluvian.

 

Inquisitor: Oh...I don't...

 

Roderick: Begone!

 

Giselle: Ingquisieghtor!

Oh good on you, I just spat coffee everywhere

I'll never look at her the same way again

[SixWingedAngel18]

I wouldn't be surprised either, Angel.

 

And that's what I love about Lel... she's devout yet promiscuous. Interesting combo in a character.

Agreed

She's my favourite LI out of all three games.

Plus she still has all her adorable quirks, like her obsession with shoes. 

[SixWingedAngel18]

Ahh I love it when topics go from fierce debate to tasteless dirty jokes about DA characters.

Isn't this how people on forums bond? haha

[SixWingedAngel18]

Man she changed a lot though...

 

At first, I thought she was depressing.

 

But then hardened Leliana started to drip with sexy.

I think she just needs a hug.

I wish there was a *cuddle* option with her

Then she'd probably stab my inquisitor. Would be totally worth it though.

[SixWingedAngel18]

*snip*

Double post

[TeraBat]

Yeah true, I didnt intend for the Sera debate to spiral like it did Whoops

 

The thing is, and not trying to pick on you, just pointing something else out. The game already has an elegant, mature lesbian like Celene. It's Celene. And it's got a vicious, bitter but somehow still idealistic lesbian with Briala. And then you have the brash, crass immature lesbian in Sera (whose sexuality never even comes up unless you show romantic interest in her). 

 

They are all three very different women, with different desires, goals and histories. Inclusiveness isn't just about having a Token Lesbian (and perhaps her girlfriend hanging around at the edges of the story). Inclusiveness is about showing a variety of complex characters who belong to groups which don't often show up in fiction. If you want to talk about how DAI treats lesbians, you need to look at all their lesbian characters, as a whole, to get the full picture. 

[phantomrachie]

Counter-example: Krem. I think Bioware changed the Qun for that, and that I resent. It's one thing to create a world where that message can be sent convincingly in the first place, but quite another to change it at some point to make it so. If the writers refuse to be bound by what they've written earlier, there may come a point where plausible worldbuilding ceases to have any meaning.

 

 I don't think we know enough about the Qun to make that statement. Sten and the Arishok didn't discuss the Qun outside their own roles much at all. Talis did briefly, but the only person who discussed the Qun in much detail at all was Iron Bull.

 

Everything else is either from people who only discuss it in relation to their role or from people who hate or who have fought against the Qun.

 

We've been told that trying to understand the Qun be speaking to a solder is like trying to understand a a person by looking at their leg 

 

http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)

 

Iron Bull is the closet we've come to seeing what the Qun is like as a whole rather than just part of it. If Iron Bull says their are people like Krem in the Qun, we have no basis for not believing him.

 

Edit: To add another example of new information Iron Bull gives us - their affinity for Dragons. No one has mentioned that before and it doesn't seem to fit with what we currently know about the Qun, but it's new info, just like Iron Bull's acceptance of Krem or the fact that you can have sex any time you like, like it's not a big deal.

[Robert Trevelyan]

you know when people repeat themselfs too many times in order to make sure that others will listen. despite the fact that by repeating this one thing these people are  making fools of themselfs?

this is how BW behave.

Prime example, aside from Dorian, is Krem and Iron Bull's remark about Krem.

 

Basically BW is forcing liberal ideas through their game. And this is so annoying.

 

 

Sorry, but I cannot believe anybody would argue that subjects such as gender and sexuality are just 'liberal ideas'. That's a really offensive claim to be making here.

 

Personally, I too was a little disappointed about Dorian's quest myself. I felt there should have been more to it. Having Tevinter soldiers trying to hunt him down, or ambush the party, on a couple of occasion before building to this meeting. At which point it could be revealed that his father was sorry, and that he just wanted to speak to his son.

 

I don't think it's as heavy handed as some suggest. It's just very short. But then, many of the companion quests are disappointingly short in a similar manner. It's the length and set up which I find disappointing. But not the ultimate end. 

[SixWingedAngel18]

The thing is, and not trying to pick on you, just pointing something else out. The game already has an elegant, mature lesbian like Celene. It's Celene. And it's got a vicious, bitter but somehow still idealistic lesbian with Briala. And then you have the brash, crass immature lesbian in Sera (whose sexuality never even comes up unless you show romantic interest in her). 

 

They are all three very different women, with different desires, goals and histories. Inclusiveness isn't just about having a Token Lesbian (and perhaps her girlfriend hanging around at the edges of the story). Inclusiveness is about showing a variety of complex characters who belong to groups which don't often show up in fiction. If you want to talk about how DAI treats lesbians, you need to look at all their lesbian characters, as a whole, to get the full picture. 

Oh no worries, I was just pointing out it would be nice to have a Celene-type character playing a bigger, more active role. Like a party member. I think someone like her would add a lot to the story. That's why Dumbledore in HP was so great - he was a gay man written well. And younger audiences accepted that as just one part of his awesome, bad-ass wizard persona. We have plenty of characters like Sera already, in books, media, even some games.  I was addressing all games with that comment, not just Bioware series'

 

If they're going to represent LGBT characters as individuals, my advice to Bioware would be to branch out.

 

Like I mentioned before, a battle-hardened older male warrior, with a family. Maybe his lover was a fellow soldier he lost in battle? Mention it in passing as grief. Deal with the issue not as "this character is gay" but rather "this character was life partners with another human being, who was a warrior like him, and now his lover has died and he's trying to pick up the pieces."

 

or deal with a lesbian character who has a child, ala Morrigan, and only realised her orientation later on in life? that happens. Maybe she was even married. He went off to war, died, she loved him but never as much as she could love a woman. The sex was meaningless, the child a fortunate blessing,

 

Have a bisexual knight in shining armour who wants to be your one-and-only-man, regardless of how you look or whats between your legs if male you can ask him "do you like men?" he could simply reply with "I like you. Isnt that what counts?" then have him save the day hah

 

Hell, even throw in a completely asexual character who isnt actually aromantic, they want pure romance but not sex (i suppose Josie could be interpreted as this but tbh I dont know)

 

Eh, I dunno

 

I just feel there's so much potential for LGBT representation to move past what we've been getting thus far.

 

One thing I'm grateful for in DAI though is that these characters have sexual orientations. The "everyone is bi" thing was always a little far-fetched.

[Ieldra]

 I don't think we know enough about the Qun to make that statement. Sten and the Arishok didn't discuss the Qun outside their own roles much at all. Talis did briefly, but the only person who discussed the Qun in much detail at all was Iron Bull.

 

Everything else is either from people who only discuss it in relation to their role or from people who hate or who have fought against the Qun.

 

We've been told that trying to understand the Qun be speaking to a solder is like trying to understand a a person by looking at their leg 

 

http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)

 

Iron Bull is the closet we've come to seeing what the Qun is like as a whole rather than just part of it. If Iron Bull says their are people like Krem in the Qun, we have no basis for not believing him.

 

Edit: To add another example of new information Iron Bull gives us - their affinity for Dragons. No one has mentioned that before and it doesn't seem to fit with what we currently know about the Qun, but it's new info, just like Iron Bull's acceptance of Krem or the fact that you can have sex any time you like, like it's not a big deal.

I do believe Iron Bull, and that's the problem. Revelation or retcon? People justify it as a revelation, but I'm pretty sure no ambiguity about the meaning of "man" or "woman" was intended when Sten was written for DAO. So it *is* a retcon. For those who were there when DAO came out, this is rather jarring. It goes along with the fact that almost everything that can't be made gender-neutral has been carefully excised from the world. The new status isn't a problem as such, but it makes it obvious that issues of real-world inclusiveness made the writers change the design of their pre-existing world. That hurts the setting's integrity.

 

Edit:

Of course it doesn't help that I detest the Qun and hate to see anything good added to it.

[phantomrachie]

I do believe Iron Bull, and that's the problem. Revelation or retcon? People justify it as a revelation, but I'm pretty sure no ambiguity about the meaning of "man" or "woman" was intended when Sten was written for DAO. So it *is* a retcon. For those who were there when DAO came out, this is rather jarring. It goes along with the fact that almost everything that can't be made gender-neutral has been carefully excised from the world. The new status isn't a problem as such, but it makes it obvious that issues of real-world inclusiveness make the writers change the design of their pre-existing world. That hurts the setting's integrity.

 

 It's not a retcon because we don't know enough about the Qun to make that value judgment about them. Sten himself says that you can't understand the Qun by just asking him about it. 

 

It is also made clear by Iron Bull that most Qunari know just enough about the Qun to fore fill their role, so Sten is right, we can't understand the Qun by just asking him about it.

 

The Qun has always been kept vague enough so it is flexible for the writers to add new parts too if they need it. Maybe they always intended to add this to the Qun, maybe they didn't. We have no evidence in existing lore either way, you are making an assumption that it was a retcon and choosing to be annoyed about it, but it could just have easily been something that was always there, or something that was added later because the writers had never decided on what the Qun stance on transgenders was.

 

A retcon would've been the Chantry electing a male Divine at the end of DA:I or Iron Bull not being made Tal'Vashoth when he ignored his orders. 

 

Also I played DA:O on it's release day and it's not jarring for me.

 

Edit: If you think back on Sten's dialogue, his definition of male and female comes from the roles they have in society. He claims that the Warden can't be a women because of the role she has. If trans members of the Qun are given roles that fit their correct gender, then trans male Qunari would be Warriors and trans female Qunari would be Priests and Sten's definition of gender would be accurate. 

[Ieldra]

@phantomrachie:

A retcon - "retroactive continuity" - is a reinterpretation of past facts in order to fit a new idea, and that's exactly what this is. Tvtropes defines it as follows:

 

"Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."

 

So yeah, the new status does not contradict the old if you accept that ambiguity in the meaning of "man" or "woman", but I maintain this was not intended form the start, and this is rather obvious. As I said, the new status is not a problem as such as the fact that this was changed and that that is recognizable.

[SixWingedAngel18]

 

That's rather unfair towards Sera.  She's not really like that.  She wants to get to know you first.

 

Doesnt she say this right before aformentioned cutscene though? In the youtube video of her romance that I saw, she says this, Inquisitior fast travels a bit, they jump into bed

 

Guess she changed her mind lol, or it was a bug?

 

Its polarising, if that isnt the case because her line "I play with people I like" implies that she's promiscuous. Or I just dont get her character, which is possible.

 

Edit: She also comes across as pushy in said "lets go to bed scene", like she's not asking she's telling. It doesnt marry well with this line of dialogue. And she doesnt get why they haven't done anything together yet.

 

Also, we have officially derailed this thread lol

[Amirit]

What if Dorian's personal quest was about him being in love with a girl not of noble birth, and he refused to be a "breeder" for his father's legacy with the magically blooded woman they picked out for him, and instead wanted to stay with his true love of non-magical woman of common birth?

 

Would it be an issue?

 

More than half the quest is about Tevinter Magocratic Genetic Selection.

I am going to regret it, but I'll say.

 

No, it would not. No it would be if that "girl" would be a boy. He would fight for love and personal choices without bringing modern political agenda and making a problem where there is none. 

 

In the whole game - from DAO to DAI we never saw a single person being punished for their sexual choice. Yet suddenly it become a huge deal for only one character.

 

As someone mentioned in another thread -  Sera is a lesbian. Do you see her talking non-stop about it? Is this quality the only definition of her character? Does she fight for lesbians rights at every opportunity? No, no and no. Yet, show me one person here having problems with her being lesbian (aside from straight men unhappy that the only elven girl is unavailable, and even them would prefer not the Sera we have). She IS a lesbian, yet, she is also a very interesting person, it's not all you can say about her.

 

There are gay people right on that forum who are not happy about that modern stand and the fact that unlike Sera all they got for their beloved character is his gay side which makes it look like he is there only for "sending the message".