432 réponses à ce sujet

[l7986]

One thing that I didn't like about Khrem is that we couldn't ask about his/her gender. I honestly know next to nothing about trans people and I think it would have been a great opportunity to be able to learn something. Instead I ask a genuine question and everyone is acting like I just proposed bombing an orphanage or something.

[SixWingedAngel18]

I really don't know if it is a bug or not, or if I am bugged in my playthrough.  It's the only Sera romance I've done, but I keep getting this response and I'm taking her everywhere.  Regardless, she's worth the wait. 

Well I'm glad you like her I know she does appeal to a lot of people

 

i do use her a fair bit, because I use everyone in my part, and never kick them out of the Inquisition because I feel like Id miss out on content. She can turn into a one woman army with the right build.

[phantomrachie]

@phantomrachie:

A retcon - "retroactive continuity" - is a reinterpretation of past facts in order to fit a new idea, and that's exactly what this is. Tvtropes defines it as follows:

 

"Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."

 

So yeah, the new status does not contradict the old if you accept that ambiguity in the meaning of "man" or "woman", but I maintain this was not intended form the start, and this is rather obvious. As I said, the new status is not a problem as such as the fact that this was changed and that that is recognizable.

 

I don't agree that it was obviously different at the start. As I suggested trans people don't contradict Sten's definition of gender. 

 

I get the impression that you are annoyed by this change because you think the Qun should be against trans people.

 

What is more likely that BioWare writers never considered what the Qun's stance on trans characters were and then decided to address it in DA:I. This would mean that it was just something that BioWare didn't consider in 2009 and are now adding in 2014.

 

I would consider this an expansion on the lore rather than a retcon because they are not re framing past events, they are adding to their own lore.

 

This is something that is inevitable in a series that goes on for a number of years, topics crop up that they never had considered in the lore before and they need to add something to it.

 

The Borg were never something that Gene Roddenberry thought of during the original Star Trek run, adding them to the lore is not retconing the Universe, but making Archer meet the Klingons before Kirk is. 

 

If Sten had come across a trans person and been all like 'ugh that is gross, the Qun hates that' and then BioWare added Krem and Iron Bull then I'd agree with you, but really we never knew that the Qun's stance on trans people was. 

[Melyanna]

I really don't know if it is a bug or not, or if I am bugged in my playthrough.  It's the only Sera romance I've done, but I keep getting this response and I'm taking her everywhere.  Regardless, she's worth the wait. 

 

Regarding the whole Dorian thing... Okay, I'm a mid-40s conservative Southern Baptist, just to set the groundwork here.  He's my second favorite companion, period.  Only Cassie gets higher marks.  His personal quest didn't really bug me at all.  It was clearly a point of contention between him and his father.

 

What did sort of bug me was Krem jumping down my  throat when I asked (paraphrasing as I forget the exact wording) why she / he would want to pretend to be a man.  That's partially my failing, I guess, simply because of my upbringing and lack of exposure to certain facets of society.

 

Except for the "When did you know?" question, all other dialogue options you have are extremely rude and insensitive.
Krem is a man, he is not pretending to be one, which is why he jumps on the Inquisitor's trhoat if you ask those questions.

[SixWingedAngel18]

One thing that I didn't like about Khrem is that we couldn't ask about his/her gender. I honestly know next to nothing about trans people and I think it would have been a great opportunity to be able to learn something. Instead I ask a genuine question and everyone is acting like I just proposed bombing an orphanage or something.

*shrugs*

 

People have a tendency to be quite sensitive. I hate it when genuine curiosity is met with snappish remarks.

 

if someone isnt being directly insulting, whats the issue?

[Teddie Sage]

I think people missed the point of this quest. It was about confronting his dad and his past, letting go of their differences so they could move on in their lives. It wasn't JUST about BEING GAY.

[phantomrachie]

 

 

In the whole game - from DAO to DAI we never saw a single person being punished for their sexual choice. Yet suddenly it become a huge deal for only one character.

 

 

It's a big deal for Dorian because he is Tevinter. He is expected to marry a power female Mage and breed. He doesn't want to do that because he is gay and doesn't want to play straight, that is why it is a big deal.

 

Not because he is gay but because he wont just get married and breed Mage babies like his parents want him too. As long as he was willing to do that, I'm sure his parents wouldn't care if he took male lovers.

 

It's all about breeding in Tevinter and Dorian wont do it.

[Johanna]

i made an example with Iron Bull and Krem for a reason. if you fail to remember this scene i suggest you to replay it. Because this is where you get this feeling about liberal ideas being showed down your throat whatever you like it or not.

I didn't get that feeling at all. Unlike you, I was happy. Because I knew tens of thousands of players felt, for the first time ever, what it was like to get an invitation to the party rather than having to settle for being the +1 yet again. I am quite unable to understand why this bothers you so very much, unless you are simply a garden-variety bigot.

[leaguer of one]

you know when people repeat themselfs too many times in order to make sure that others will listen. despite the fact that by repeating this one thing these people are  making fools of themselfs?

this is how BW behave.

Prime example, aside from Dorian, is Krem and Iron Bull's remark about Krem.

 

Basically BW is forcing liberal ideas through their game. And this is so annoying.

No they are not. Dorian's entire issue with his father is about not conforming. Not that he's gay.

[papercut_ninja]

But heavy handed can hinder us more than help...

There's beauty in subtelty, like Celene/Briala.

If we can be represented as characters first, then orientation second, thats when true progress will happen.

 

As if hateful bullies would stop being hateful if video games would just approach criticizing gender roles in a more subtle way...

 

Besides, when it comes to non-traditional representations of gender and sexuality, you have everything from subtle androgyny to drag...that doesn't make any of them less empowering.

[WildOrchid]

Doesnt she say this right before aformentioned cutscene though? In the youtube video of her romance that I saw, she says this, Inquisitior fast travels a bit, they jump into bed

 

Guess she changed her mind lol, or it was a bug?

 

Its polarising, if that isnt the case because her line "I play with people I like" implies that she's promiscuous. Or I just dont get her character, which is possible.

 

Edit: She also comes across as pushy in said "lets go to bed scene", like she's not asking she's telling. It doesnt marry well with this line of dialogue. And she doesnt get why they haven't done anything together yet.

 

Also, we have officially derailed this thread lol

 

Unless you got approvals, you can't go with Sera instantly with fast travels. This sounds buggy.

That or you had approvals that were close enough to romance path for it to open.

 

And you can tell Sera to get it slow and she accepts it. No sex. Besides we all know Sera is direct and honest and she'll tell you what she thinks. That's an admirable trait of hers (she does admit she can hurt people with the things she says because doesn't know how to stop expressing her thoughts and be careful in what she says. Never thinks before speaking )

 

She'll only bed people she trusts and likes deeply enough for her to completely be open to this person, i don't see it as a bad thing for her to want to have sex with this person instantly after she got to know her and trust her.

[Feranel]

@phantomrachie:
A retcon - "retroactive continuity" - is a reinterpretation of past facts in order to fit a new idea, and that's exactly what this is. Tvtropes defines it as follows:

"Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."

So yeah, the new status does not contradict the old if you accept that ambiguity in the meaning of "man" or "woman", but I maintain this was not intended form the start, and this is rather obvious. As I said, the new status is not a problem as such as the fact that this was changed and that that is recognizable.

More to the point, Sten also stated that there is no sex among the Qun but arranged mating pairings. No sex or relationships for enjoyment. I never see anyone complain about the "sexual release Tamassrans" "retcon" that Bull introduced.

Stem also said Elves could not be fighters because they are weak and only exist to be subjugated. And yet, Gat and Tallis are elves who fight for the Qun, and Tallis a woman.

My takeaway is that Sten and the Arishok are Antaam, born and bred hyper aggressive idiot soldiers whose only understanding of the Qun is that it requires them to hit things that don't follow the Qun.

[Ieldra]

I don't agree that it was obviously different at the start. As I suggested trans people don't contradict Sten's definition of gender. 

 

I get the impression that you are annoyed by this change because you think the Qun should be against trans people.

 

 

To make it clear where I'm coming from: The allusion to real-world drug problems in Cullen's quest, the allusion to real-world practices of attempting to change gay people, and this silent retcon of parts of the Qun are all about the same thing for me: the impression that worldbuilding elements are selectively ignored, changed or reintepreted in order to fit a message the writers want to send. That applies even in cases where I agree with the message.

 

All that, btw, doesn't change that I think Dorian is a great character and that his quest is actually rather good and illustrates a lot about Tevinter culture. I *am* sad that he's gay because I'd like to romance him with my female characters, but I said in the past I prefer defined orientations - yet again, for reasons of plausibility - and I'm willing to pay the price of sometimes not getting what I'd prefer. I am, however, rather sensitive to worldbuilding concerns. 

[Ieldra]

More to the point, Sten also stated that there is no sex among the Qun but arranged mating pairings. No sex or relationships for enjoyment. I never see anyone complain about the "sexual release Tamassrans" "retcon" that Bull introduced.

I had forgotten that statement but you're right.

 

Your interpretatation of Sten and the Arishok as "idiot soldiers" may be the only way out of this dilemma. I dislike it when such things become necessary.

[daveliam]

Oh no worries, I was just pointing out it would be nice to have a Celene-type character playing a bigger, more active role. Like a party member. I think someone like her would add a lot to the story. That's why Dumbledore in HP was so great - he was a gay man written well. And younger audiences accepted that as just one part of his awesome, bad-ass wizard persona. We have plenty of characters like Sera already, in books, media, even some games.  I was addressing all games with that comment, not just Bioware series'

 

If they're going to represent LGBT characters as individuals, my advice to Bioware would be to branch out.

 

Like I mentioned before, a battle-hardened older male warrior, with a family. Maybe his lover was a fellow soldier he lost in battle? Mention it in passing as grief. Deal with the issue not as "this character is gay" but rather "this character was life partners with another human being, who was a warrior like him, and now his lover has died and he's trying to pick up the pieces."

 

or deal with a lesbian character who has a child, ala Morrigan, and only realised her orientation later on in life? that happens. Maybe she was even married. He went off to war, died, she loved him but never as much as she could love a woman. The sex was meaningless, the child a fortunate blessing,

 

Have a bisexual knight in shining armour who wants to be your one-and-only-man, regardless of how you look or whats between your legs if male you can ask him "do you like men?" he could simply reply with "I like you. Isnt that what counts?" then have him save the day hah

 

Hell, even throw in a completely asexual character who isnt actually aromantic, they want pure romance but not sex (i suppose Josie could be interpreted as this but tbh I dont know)

 

Eh, I dunno

 

I just feel there's so much potential for LGBT representation to move past what we've been getting thus far.

 

One thing I'm grateful for in DAI though is that these characters have sexual orientations. The "everyone is bi" thing was always a little far-fetched.

 

See and I agree with you on this but also feel like we kind of already have a variety of character types in the LGBT characters in the series:

 

Females:

Leliana - devoutly religious bisexual human assassin with a preference for females and who can have either a 'soft' or 'hardened' personality based on your decisions

Merrill - naive and innocent bisexual dalish elf First; barely acknowledges her own sexuality outside of a little curiosity with Isabela's exploits

Isabela - overtly sexual and promiscuous bisexual human pirate; uses her over-the-top sexuality as a defense mechanism and enjoys sex openly; ends up with Fenris if you don't romance her

Sera - immature lesbian elf rebel; her sexuality is a complete non-issue to her character; she is, unapologetically, who she is

Josephine - reserved, prim, and conservative bisexual human diplomat; her story very much plays out like a classic fairy tale, regardless of your gender; has a budding romance with Blackwall if you don't romance her

 

Males:

Zevran - high promiscuous bisexual elven assassin; strong preference for females; literally uses sex as part of his weapons arsenal

Anders - emotional and irrational bisexual human apostate; openly flirty about females, but has significant past male lover; ultimately betrays your love for his cause

Fenris - angsty and broody bisexual elf fugitive; because of the emotional and physical abuse he's endured, he keeps you at a distance until eventually trusting you (plays out the same for males and females); ends up with Isabela if you don't romance him

Iron Bull - hedonistic, promiscuous bisexual qunari spy; his romantic story arc is about control and power (what you will give up and what he will allow you); shows a slight preference for females but ends up with Dorian if you don't romance him

Dorian - cocky and saracstic Tevinter mage rebel; is used to casual sex being the norm and is surprised you want something serious; has family acceptance issues that helped create his bravado as a shield; ends up with Bull if you don't romance him

 

To me, these are very different characters.  There are some things that show up again and again, though.  Like the fact that outside of Josephine, every one of the LGBT romances are living outside of 'normal' society.  They are all rebels, assassins, apostates, etc.  There's also the fact that all of the bisexual males show a preference for females.  Anders has Karl, but he's super flirty about ladies in DA: A.  Bull ends up with Dorian, but all of his other comments are about tavern girls and chantry girls, etc.  Fenris doesn't show a preference, but ends up with Isabela.  I'd like to see a bisexual guy who prefers males.

 

But in general, it's a mixed bunch.  We have some whose sexuality is front and center in their stories (Isabela, Zevran, Dorian) and some whose sexuality is barely mentioned at all (Merrill, Fenris, Josephine).  We have some that are bisexual and others that are gay/lesbian.  We have some that are cocky and brash and some that are serious. 

 

Could they continue to do bettter?  Of course.  I'd love to see an older gay guy.  Someone set in his ways, who's comfortable with himself.  (*btw, your example story sounds a bit like Steve from ME3)  I'd also love to see a gay/bisexual knight in shining armor (think Julien and Nicolas from The Calling).  We need more gay/lesbian LI's that fit in 'normal' society and aren't outcasts.  (Celene is a great example of this, but she's an NPC and, frankly, without reading the book, she's not well developed in the game).  I'm not displeased by the way that the DA team in particular has represented LGBT characters.   Have they made a few missteps?  Sure.  But in general, I'd say that they do the best at this in the industry.

[Amirit]

It's a big deal for Dorian because he is Tevinter. He is expected to marry a power female Mage and breed. He doesn't want to do that because he is gay and doesn't want to play straight, that is why it is a big deal.

 

Not because he is gay but because he wont just get married and breed Mage babies like his parents want him too. As long as he was willing to do that, I'm sure his parents wouldn't care if he took male lovers.

 

It's all about breeding in Tevinter and Dorian wont do it.

 

For quite many people it's hard to read through "oh, I am gay and I am suffering because of it". It's a question of accents, underlines. You read it as "freedom of believes" in general (to be fair, I did too, or better say for me use of blood magic was mentioned strong enough to make a big deal out of that). But as I said many - many!- people got it other way. And there are gay people here who feel slightly offended by - again - representing their sexuality as something very out-of-place in a world that was so far more than tolerable to such things. And I know it because I tried to explain them that this is not the case.

[phantomrachie]

To make it clear where I'm coming from: The allusion to real-world drug problems in Cullen's quest, the allusion to real-world practices of attempting to change gay people, and this silent retcon of parts of the Qun are all about the same thing for me: the impression that worldbuilding elements are selectively ignored, changed or reintepreted in order to fit a message the writers want to send. That applies even in cases where I agree with the message.

 

 

Oh I'm not saying that you are against the message  just that when you a building a World for the first game, book, film etc, there will be elements that you don't create. You'll forget to include something or leave it out on purpose because you don't think it's important. 

 

As your World evolves you may realize that you forgot to include or create a piece of your societies culture. Adding it in later is not a retcon, just expanding your lore.

 

For example, we never knew much about the original Elves, but we know the Dalish think they were awesome, then if you read 'Masked Empire', you find out they weren't so awesome.

 

This could be something that was originally intended from the beginning or something that was added when BioWare decided to explore Elvan lore more, either way it is an expansion on the lore.

 

I suppose the word 'retcon' is a trigger word for me, people throw it around, without using it in it's proper context, or saying any change they don't like is a retcon.

 

Not that you are doing that but this frustration may have come through in my previous posts, so sorry for that.

[Feranel]

I had forgotten that statement but you're right.

Your interpretatation of Sten and the Arishok as "idiot soldiers" may be the only way out of this dilemma. I dislike it when such things become necessary.

Idiot was a little harsh, but I use it because they are clearly not in a position to know what they are talking about. The Antaam are trained for war, and know nothing but war. It makes sense that they have little understanding of their society as a whole. It also makes sense why so many Antaam become Tal Vashoth, and not as many Tammassrans, because all the Antaam know is rage and fighting, their emotional maturity seems arrested, they can't cope with complex concepts or feelings. When they get PTSD from constant fighting they snap and become savage because they have no frame of mind or reference to cope and not enough understanding of their society to find help.

The Qun military is vast, but largely uneducated near as I can tell.

[phantomrachie]

I had forgotten that statement but you're right.

 

Your interpretatation of Sten and the Arishok as "idiot soldiers" may be the only way out of this dilemma. I dislike it when such things become necessary.

 

It's not that they are idiots though.

 

As Iron Bull says - Qunari get taught as much of the Qun as they need to fore-fill their role. The Antaam don't need to know as much as a Tammassran or even Ben Hassrath.

 

They are uneducated rather than idiots, it's why the Qun can't be judge by the Antaam that we meet because they are the body of the Qun not its soul and we need to understand both the body and soul to understand the Qun.

 

At least according to a DA2 codex.

[stonerbishop]

I see no problems with dorian s quest because gaider said he had to exercise personal demons to write him, so stereotypes or not, someone has had these types of experiences.

[yankblan]

I'm a lesbian irl and when I got his personal quest I double face palmed and groaned. Even I know Bioware is pushing a "gay agenda", and I honestly think straight guys would be more open to gay characters if their whole focus wasn't "Hello, I am character X and I'm gay. People cant accept me for who I am because I'm gay. Have I told you I'm gay?"

 

We are NOT all flamboyant, sex crazed, walking LGBT stereotypes irl so why are we being represented this way? I'm quite feminine, most of my friends are straight girls and the only difference between them & me in how we act is that I prefer a woman in my bed instead of a man

 

Just for once I'd like to see a character like Morrigan or Cullen be gay and be written where their sexuality is not the main focus of their character, an example of this would be Ellie from The Last Of Us. It detracts from the narrative and prevents straight people from identifying with them. A male can be strong/masculine and gay, just as a woman can be quite traditionally feminine but still identify as a lesbian.

 

Seriously Dorian & Sera are walking stereotypes and that just pisses me off to no end. Its the reason I refuse to romance either of them. Josephine, Cassandra and Iron Bull for me all the way (Well, my inquisitors anyway haha)

 

Sorry for the rant, I'm just glad someone brought this up and I can see why his character is so jarring for some.

 

Cullen and Bull swing both ways, and it doesn't really show unless you romance them.  Bull is just a perv, male or female, but that is the character, not his sexual preference.

 

In the case of Sera, I think it's consistant with her character, she's basically a "shove it" kind of rebel, one that tells you how she feels about everything and everybody (you can ask her opinon of every NPC in the Inquisition), so no, I don't feel like it's forced.

 

Also, Iron Bull being protective/defensive about Krem; basically it's his  best front line mate, and he would kill to defend her.  He's strong about how he feels about it, just like some of the Chantry are strong about their Maker, just as Vivienne is stubborn about the Circles.  People see something that clashes with their ideals, and think they're being force fed something.  The religious aspect is much more forced, as it impacts the world of DA since Origins and is set in a fictitious universe comparable to the Dark Age.

 

The whole gay thing is only related to certain characters, you do not need to "go there"; Dorian's quest got bugged on my first PT so did not do it, and I never got from Sera that she was gay, since I didn't romance her (or tried).  Every character has strong values that they will defend, people just choose to be offended by nothing and everything; that is the way of the 21st centurty unfortunately.

 

Oh, yeah, Solas is basically racist and it's no big deal?  I think if some people are bothered that much by something that is so small and irrelevant, they should look at themselves first.

 

I'm an hardcore atheist, and the religious aspect doesn't repel me, it's part of the world we live in; I have the choice to say to Cass that I don't believe.  Now I'm doing a PT as a religious nut, just to see how the reactions change.  RPG, people.  Look it up.

[Mann42]

Today I learned (again) that accepting people for who they are is a liberal agenda, people wanting to be respected despite their sexual orientation is a political issue, and being unashamed of who you are makes you a stereotype.

 

Until that's not the case, art will continue to reflect this, 'shoving it down your throats' until you realize there is nothing liberal or political about common human decency and respect.

 

Only once everyone respects each other for who they are, once there's no more drama and tragedy in it, will it become a story not worth telling anymore.