432 réponses à ce sujet

[WildOrchid]

Cullen and Bull swing both ways

 

Err, Cullen is straight.

[FlyinElk212]

It's not so much the "homosexuality emphasis" on Dorian's personal quest with his father that bothers me--I actually saw that as a smaller point to the bigger picture of "Dorian's not conforming to his father's expectations of him". That just so happened to include Dorian's homosexuality, but wasn't defined by it.

 

What bothered me more about the quest is the fact that it even exists at all. The entire quest was a painfully obvious allegory to the cliched, trope-y homosexual acceptance plots that we've seen in a ton of media before this. 

 

What would've been more effective is an entirely different concept for Dorian's personal quest overall, something akin to what they did with Krem in this game--bring up this component to Dorian's character, but don't let it define our interactions with him in the future. Once you ask Krem and Iron Bull "when did you know" and "is it weird treating Krem as a man", they both laugh it off and go about business as usual--no big deal, no reason to spotlight it, Krem is just Krem. Bioware did something similar with this in Mass Effect 3 with Cortez' character. He casually brings up that he had a husband in the past and no one makes a big deal of it--it's just 1 component of the character that's a part of him, but doesn't define him.

[yankblan]

Err, Cullen is straight.

Ok, I thought since I got love dialogues he was bi, since I have those with Bull, but not Blackwall, for instance.

[yankblan]

It's not so much the "homosexuality emphasis" on Dorian's personal quest with his father that bothers me--I actually saw that as a smaller point to the bigger picture of "Dorian's not conforming to his father's expectations of him". That just so happened to include Dorian's homosexuality, but wasn't defined by it--there was a continuing lineage component, public opinion component, a father's disappointment in his child component to it.

 

What bothered me more about the quest is the fact that it even exists at all. I think this quest did a good enough job on de-emphasizing the homosexuality component...however, the entire quest was a painfully obvious allegory to the cliched, trope-y homosexual acceptance plots that we've seen in a ton of media before this. 

 

What would've been more effective is an entirely different concept for Dorian's personal quest overall, something akin to what they did with Krem in this game--bring up this component to Dorian's character, but don't let it define our interactions with him in the future. Once you ask Krem and Iron Bull "when did you know" and "is it weird treating Krem as a man", they both laugh it off and go about business as usual--no big deal, no reason to spotlight it, Krem is just Krem. Bioware did something similar with this in Mass Effect 3 with Cortez' character. He casually brings up that he had a husband in the past and no one makes a big deal of it--it's just 1 component of the character that's a part of him, but doesn't define him.

 

Now, I think it's part of the character; he is angry.  At his family, his country (love-hate); he's a bit of an a-hole if you don't agree with him on certain things, unlike Cassandra. You choose to see it through the gay angle, but it could have been that he didn't become a lawyer like his dad, that he didn't go to the college his folks wanted him to go to, that he didn't believe in God, and so on.

 

Look at these very boards! Some people are just confrontational, some are contentious all the time, some stand in the middle and want everybody to calm down.  They did a great, great job of incorporating everything (sex, religion, upbringing, social status, race); but with only 9 companions, things had to be a bit crammed into a few characters.  I mean, out of 9 companions, 3 advisors, only 8 are straight (7 if you don't count Cole)?

 

There would have needed 25 companions to cover every base without seeming to have too much going on one character.  Just like people saying so and so dies, and after 15 seconds it's not a big deal... it's a game, not an 8 seasons series, they have to cut somewhere?!

[l7986]

Only once everyone respects each other for who they are

Its a 2 way street regardless of what people would like to think. So until a person can a ask a question and not get **** flung at them for not blindly accepting something its going to keep happening.

[MrSnoozer]

Dorian content was well written and didn't come off as 'You should know better and shame on you for asking' the way Krem went when you enquired. Heck some people were genuinely supprised the Krem was born female. Its no a supprise at 'oh you have female genitalia,what are you doing dressed as a man' it was genuinly supprise at the fact krem was female at all.  So yes asking her 'Your a girl!?' during that conversation didn't require Krem to go full Ham on your ass

[daveliam]

Dorian content was well written and didn't come off as 'You should know better and shame on you for asking' the way Krem went when you enquired. Heck some people were genuinely supprised the Krem was born female. Its no a supprise at 'oh you have female genitalia,what are you doing dressed as a man' it was genuinly supprise at the fact krem was female at all.  So yes asking her 'Your a girl!?' during that conversation didn't require Krem to go full Ham on your ass

 

No, but it also doesn't require that Krem not get upset at asking that question.  People ask for realistic characters and then upset when characters are realistic.  Krem being annoyed that you are asking that question seems pretty in line with his character.  His gender identity isn't up for debate.  He is who he is:  a straight-forward, what you see is what you get, type of guy.  His reaction is not an uncommon reaction for a transperson.  Maybe in a future game, we'll get someone who is more interested in talking about his/her identity.  If they only present trans people in the way they did Krem, then I'd agree that it's an issue.  But to date, we've only had one transperson and the terribly botched Serendipity thing from DA 2.  I don't think it's an issue yet.  Frankly, I'd go so far as to say, maybe it's an eye-opener to people that, should they meet a transperson in real life, perhaps they shouldn't dig into that person's gender identity with probing questions unless they know for sure that it's a welcome inquiry.

[Knight of Dane]

Even had the quest only been about his homosexuality it would not have bothered me.

 

What's important in a good companion quest is the emotion, Dorian and his voice actor delivers that perfectly. It doesn't matter if there's a political motive behind the writing. You are (I assume) an adult and can use the information as you wish. So much of Dorian's character is about everything else than homosexuality and I was frankly quite happy that it did play a role, it made him feel like a real person.

[Patchwork]

Dorian content was well written and didn't come off as 'You should know better and shame on you for asking' the way Krem went when you enquired. Heck some people were genuinely supprised the Krem was born female. Its no a supprise at 'oh you have female genitalia,what are you doing dressed as a man' it was genuinly supprise at the fact krem was female at all.  So yes asking her 'Your a girl!?' during that conversation didn't require Krem to go full Ham on your ass

 

Him.

[JamieCOTC]

I liked Dorian's quest. Did they have to mention he was gay for it to work? No, but they did. It still worked.

[Mann42]

Its a 2 way street regardless of what people would like to think. So until a person can a ask a question and not get **** flung at them for not blindly accepting something its going to keep happening.

Ah, yes, the joyful paradox of "I'll respect you for who you are only after you respect me for not respecting you for who you are."

 

Hence, drama and tragedy, and thus, a story worth telling.

[Sundance31us]

I could be wrong here, but if you don't like Dorian's personal quest you can always skip it; it's not like a Normandy beam will come flying out of nowhere to kill him on the final approach.

[Lucky Thirteen]

They're just trying to figure out a safe way to have a guy revealed to be strictly gay. They can't have a gay guy like the lesbian/Bi Women characters Bioware frequently has. You know making lots of innuendo jokes about genitalia, constantly hitting on everyone the same gender in sight, salivating over the protagonist's shower, and generally seeming to be in a constant state of horniness for the same sex. The straight male folk will start to feel uncomfortable and rage all over the forums. I mean, Anders hits on male Hawke once the entire game, and the forums exploded back in the day.

 

You can't just hit on a person and say, oh yeah I'm interested, or no, I'm flattered, but not interested. That'd be boring and way too normal. 

[Feranel]

What's interesting is that the whole blood magic mind control thing causes some eye rolls from people, but I see it as another crazy layer to the story.  Dorian idolized his father growing up, Dorian's father is the one who taught him that Blood Magic is the resort of the weak. There are a lot of layers going on here and one of the ones that stood out to me was Dorian's feeling of betrayal not merely that his father used blood magic on him, but that his father, a man he looked up to greatly used blood magic at all.

 

His father betrayed his trust, and revealed that the man Dorian has idolized his whole life and wanted to impress was no better than the weak-minded thugs with no talent that have to resort to blood magic.  When the person you looked up to and wanted so much to emulate turns out to be a fraud and a failure, what does that do to you?

[Medhia_Nox]

Um... OP.

 

His personal quest IS about his nationality, magic and his sexuality.

 

His father tries to change him because in Tevinter (his nation) they practice eugenics (the act of actively directing genetics through breeding) - Dorian is Grade A breeding stock because he's excellent at magic (so there's the magic element) -but he's a good man who won't simply enter in a relationship of convenience to put babies into a woman for the sake of antiquated and draconian policies.

 

If Dorian bred with a chosen woman - he could still run around having sex with men. 

 

BSN forumites make being gay his issue.

 

As for Blood Magic - why wouldn't he try to change his son with it?  People on the BSN spout idiocy about blood magic being totally neutral all day long.  It's not like trying to change him is evil or anything...

 

Tevinter looks derisively on blood magic while understanding that most magisters do it.  It's not taboo and they probably take the morally relativistic stance a lot of BSN forumites take. 

[Ieldra]

Here is one of my loose guidelines about allusions to real-world issues in a story that doesn't use them as a theme, set in a fictional world:

 

*If it is recognizable as being deliberately invoked, it's bad.

*If it might as well be accidental, it's good.

 

I like applicability, i.e. a plot element written that I can see as an allusion if I so choose, but where I can also ignore this dimension if I don't have a mind for it. As a rule, I want to experience the story on its own terms and within its own setting first and foremost, and being hit over the head with an allegory pulls me out of the world. That's bad. 

 

There's obviously a big YMMV area when it comes to "recognizable as being deliberately invoked", but if lore elements are selectively applied and ignored, or warped, to make the message come across better, then there isn't really any question about it. Cullen's storyline is a perfect example of what I don't like. Dorian's may be more of a borderline case, but I still feel like I was hit over the head with it because I immediately made the connection when the attempt to change Dorian by blood magic came up in the quest. In this case, I think mixing the themes didn't do the story any good.

[Feranel]

Here is one of my loose guidelines about allusions to real-world issues in a story that doesn't use them as a theme, set in a fictional world:

 

*If it is recognizable as being deliberately invoked, it's bad.

*If it might as well be accidental, it's good.

 

I like applicability, i.e. a plot element written that I can see as an allusion if I so choose, but where I can also ignore this dimension if I don't have a mind for it. As a rule, I want to experience the story on its own terms and within its own setting first and foremost, and being hit over the head with an allegory pulls me out of the world. That's bad. 

 

There's obviously a big YMMV area when it comes to "recognizable as being deliberately invoked", but if lore elements are selectively applied and ignored, or warped, to make the message come across better, then there isn't really any question about it. Cullen's storyline is a perfect example of what I don't like. Dorian's may be more of a borderline case, but I still feel like I was hit over the head with it.

 

I actually kinda liked Cullen's addiction storyline, but I think it didn't go far enough actually.  Ever since Origins we've been told time and again that lyrium is most-likely a tool used by the Chantry to leash Templars, even as far back as Origins Samson was a lyrium addicted washout because of the Chantry's machinations, now we finally see that they do kinda need it and use it but... The addiction definitely takes its toll.  What I think they failed to implement as clearly is that Cullen's addiction isn't just the "price of power of a templar." it's the price of serving a religion that doesn't give a **** about you. Samson and his templars had a crisis of faith because of the imposed addiction created by the Chantry, where was Cullen's crisis of faith?  Why was he only angry at the mages in the tower and the demons for his torture, but his addiction, something he never had a choice in, something forced upon him and other templars by his government.

 

It's actually a hard story to allegory because it doesn't actually have precise parallels in our world, it's like if a military force got it's soldiers addicted to speed so they would fight better and be leashed to their supply lines. "Military addicts it's soldiers to battle drug" is actually kinda common in sci-fi, maybe less in fantasy, I think it did alright but agree it's not exactly a good allegory for real life. 

[Xiomara]

I think Bioware did a good job by not making the gay characters sexualities the most prominent thing about them. I didn't even know Sera was gay until she spoke to Iron Bull about Qunari women. She barely even goes there IMO she's just......gay. Dorian is a little more obvious. Can't hide that fabulous-ness I suppose. He's a really engaging and endearing character though, and that is down to his wit and intelligence. His personal quest isn't just about him being gay either, there's more to it than that. His father wants a legacy, wants him to marry someone he can't stand for political and social gain, it doesn't matter if he's gay, he can still do that - he wants to be himself, and have actual passion and feelings and stuff. Not stuck in a bitter, hateful forced marriage like his parents. That could have been a storyline for any Tevinter Magister's child, male or female, gay or straight.

 

Bioware did less of a good job with Krem. IMO it should have been a good natured chat between the Inquisitor and Krem over drinks where he opened up a little, and it could have happened a lot more naturally than it did. I did not appreciate the tone of reproach from Iron Bull when I asked a question. There was nothing hostile or judgmental in it, but from his tone you'd think I'd said "OMG what's with that he-she freak". I just didn't like the way it was handled. Nothing against Krem, I like him as a character but don't get snotty with me, I was just interested is all.

[daveliam]

its not about that its just sad that Dorian who is a great character is again defined by his sexuality

it also felt forced I mean I thought we were already past accepting gays

 

I think that people on the forums don't quite understand what "defined by his sexuality" means.  Dorian is not, in no uncertain terms, "defined by his sexuality".  His sexuality is part of one of his companion quests.  Seriously, he is no more "defined by his sexuality" than Vivienne is.  One of her companion quests deals with her heterosexual relationship.  Why isn't the forum up in arms about the blatant, ham-fisted representation of her sexuality?

 

 I mean, Anders hits on male Hawke once the entire game, and the forums exploded back in the day.

 

By "back in the day", do you mean "yesterday"?  Because I'm pretty sure I saw someone lamenting this moment yesterday.  Over three years after it happened.....

[Xiomara]

 

 

 

By "back in the day", do you mean "yesterday"?  Because I'm pretty sure I saw someone lamenting this moment yesterday.  Over three years after it happened.....

 

Seriously? Guys really need to get over that. I flirted with Anders like one time. Then I decided he was a pain in the ass and we ended up disliking each other. Fast forward a chapter or so and he's telling my femHawke how he can't stop thinking about her and BAM....mouth rape. I never gave any indication that I wanted that to happen and I had no way of stopping it. I had to just let him do it. If that had happened to the guys I could see their point but it didn't. He flirted, you told him to GTFO. He GTFO. End of story.

[daveliam]

because Vivienne's mother didn't use magic to make her gay lol

no but seriously the whole quest is about the classic accept that I'm gay stuff and I really liked Dorian but his personal side quest seemed very forced

 

If you think that Dorian's quest is just about him being gay, then I suggest you re-do that quest and pay closer attention.  It's certainly an important part of it, but it's by no means the sole thing that it's about.  It has to do with his disappointment in his father, a betrayed trust, rebelling against societal expectations, etc.  His sexuality is the frame in which the rest of those points are told.  If he were defined by his sexuality, then the extent of the story would be, "Hey, I'm gay.  You too?  Let's ****!"  There's much more to Dorian than that.  

 

And, frankly, most of the romance story-lines are cliche.  Why aren't people up in arms about those? 

 

* Cassandra - crisis of faith

* Cullen - dealing with addiction

* Blackwall - LI isn't who he appears to be

* Solas - LI isn't who he appears to be

* Josephine - dual your rival for her affections/arranged marriage

* Dorian - seeking father's approval for sexuality/arranged marriage

 

The only ones that aren't really cliche are Sera and Bull.  The rest aren't exactly breaking new ground.  Yet there are multiple threads about Dorian's romance open right now.  Are there threads open about the others too?

[Feranel]

If you think that Dorian's quest is just about him being gay, then I suggest you re-do that quest and pay closer attention.  It's certainly an important part of it, but it's by no means the sole thing that it's about.  It has to do with his disappointment in his father, a betrayed trust, rebelling against societal expectations, etc.  His sexuality is the frame in which the rest of those points are told.  If he were defined by his sexuality, then the extent of the story would be, "Hey, I'm gay.  You too?  Let's ****!"  There's much more to Dorian than that.  

 

And, frankly, most of the romance story-lines are cliche.  Why aren't people up in arms about those? 

 

* Cassandra - crisis of faith

* Cullen - dealing with addiction

* Blackwall - LI isn't who he appears to be

* Solas - LI isn't who he appears to be

* Josephine - dual your rival for her affections/arranged marriage

* Dorian - seeking father's approval for sexuality/arranged marriage

 

The only ones that aren't really cliche are Sera and Bull.  The rest aren't exactly breaking new ground.  Yet there are multiple threads about Dorian's romance open right now.  Are there threads open about the others too?

 

Iron Bull's is a giant undercover identity crisis cliche: Duty to your false life and friends that you've gotten too close to or duty to your original mission and calling?  Oh look, the spy can't tell whether what he feels is a lie or the truth, that never happens in spy thrillers.

Maybe I read too many spy thrillers >.>