Iron Bull's is a giant undercover identity crisis cliche: Duty to your false life and friends that you've gotten too close to or duty to your original mission and calling? Oh look, the spy can't tell whether what he feels is a lie or the truth, that never happens in spy thrillers.
Maybe I read too many spy thrillers >.>
XD
I love bull but yeah. He's pretty much becoming the mask in a nutshell.
I agree there is more to Dorian but I still think that making a huge deal of him being gay was not needed at all
his quest also can't be compared to the others because the only purpose of the quest was to mirror the real world and how many parents don't approve of their children being gay because of society I get what david Gaider was trying to show but in my opinion it felt forced and didn't belong in the game
Well, perhaps this story wasn't meant to speak to you. You can't have a personal connection to every story that is told. This is one that many people have said is well-written and speaks to them. Just because it doesn't speak to you doesn't mean it's "forced" or "doesn't belong in the game". If I had a nickle for every story in a Bioware game that I have no connection to, I'd be a wealthy person. Doesn't mean that I think it should all be removed and replaced with stuff that speaks to me. Me. Me. Me.
I agree there is more to Dorian but I still think that making a huge deal of him being gay was not needed at all
his quest also can't be compared to the others because the only purpose of the quest was to mirror the real world and how many parents don't approve of their children being gay because of society I get what david Gaider was trying to show but in my opinion it felt forced and didn't belong in the game
I don't think that they did make a huge deal of Dorian being gay.
It is not like they changed Tevinter culture to suit the narrative. The huge deal is that Dorian wont marry the woman his parents want him too. That narrative would've been the same if Dorian were straight, he'd still be refusing to marry a woman he doesn't love to fall in line with Tevinter traditions.
His father could still of tried using blood magic to make him marry the woman.
It just so happens that Dorian is also gay and since he is gay there are real world parallels.
Today I learned (again) that accepting people for who they are is a liberal agenda, people wanting to be respected despite their sexual orientation is a political issue, and being unashamed of who you are makes you a stereotype.
Until that's not the case, art will continue to reflect this, 'shoving it down your throats' until you realize there is nothing liberal or political about common human decency and respect.
Only once everyone respects each other for who they are, once there's no more drama and tragedy in it, will it become a story not worth telling anymore.
Amen. As I said on the other thread, anyone who screams "agenda" on these issues has the biggest one of them all: to preserve the status quo of who is and who isn't worth considering human enough to have their existence acknowledged, their pain heard and their stories told.
Let's turn it around. Clearly Dorian's father's role in this mission is about nothing but his heterosexuality. Why is he shoving his straightness down our throats? If he absolutely must be straight, can't he at least keep it to himself instead of making such a big issue of something no decent person even wants to know? What a one-dimensional failure of a character, Bioware, why didn't you give him a real, valid reason for existing, one that isn't all about his desire to have sex with women? 
(If your irony-meter didn't explode reading the above paragraph, it needs its batteries changed.)
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
Well, perhaps this story wasn't meant to speak to you. You can't have a personal connection to every story that is told. This is one that many people have said is well-written and speaks to them. Just because it doesn't speak to you doesn't mean it's "forced" or "doesn't belong in the game". If I had a nickle for every story in a Bioware game that I have no connection to, I'd be a wealthy person. Doesn't mean that I think it should all be removed and replaced with stuff that speaks to me. Me. Me. Me.
I admit I never encountered Dorians problems (I'm bi btw) but I was still moved by the story (as a standalone quest)
I just felt that overall it was still heavy handed and mirroring real life problems which wasn't needed in the game (and Dorian didn't it either)
I admit I never encountered Dorians problems (I'm bi btw) but I was still moved by the story (as a standalone quest)
I just felt that overall it was still heavy handed and mirroring real life problems which wasn't needed in the game (and Dorian didn't it either)
With fantasy you have to try and make it seem realistic to the audience. In this case the gay community and others interested
Which makes me laugh when people complain about breats on women in games when average female breast sizes have been increasing over the years.
I admit I never encountered Dorians problems (I'm bi btw) but I was still moved by the story (as a standalone quest)
I just felt that overall it was still heavy handed and mirroring real life problems which wasn't needed in the game (and Dorian didn't it either)
The entire loss of faith story arc for Cassandra (and Leliana and the Inquisitor if played that) mirror real life too. That's how these games work. The mirror to real life gives you an access point. Perhaps it's just because this is one of the first AAA games where a major character deals with this story that it seems "heavy handed". In five years, when this kind of content is more common, I suspect we'll look back on Dorian and think, "Wait, people thought that this was heavy handed?"
And, frankly, none of the personal character stories need to be in the game. They are there to flesh out the world. His content was no less needed than Blackwall's.
If it had a little more backstory in it and more follow up on it (without romancing him). And give me an option to be a horrible person. Forcing him to that kind of ritual would have been awesome.
If it had a little more backstory in it and more follow up on it (without romancing him). And give me an option to be a horrible person. Forcing him to that kind of ritual would have been awesome.
Guest_Raga_*
I didn't like it either. I mostly didn't like it because I never wanted this to be a story about gay rights. I just wanted it to be a story that happened to have gay characters in it. It kind of leaves me feeling like "what do you *want* from me, Bioware? To sit through various mandatory lectures so you can convince me how progressive you are?" I support gay rights in RL. You are preaching to a choir. In DA, I just want to hang out with my gay friends and/or play a gay character without somebody explaining to me yet again how terrible gay conversion therapy is (evil blood magic to "ungay" Dorian I'm looking at you) or how horrible it is when someone's parents reject them because they are gay. No kidding. Anyone with 2 neurons knows this.
*Edit* I have to give my normal note that Dorian's voice actor nailed this scene, despite having not such a great scene to work with. He convinced me if nothing else in the scene did. He succeeded in making me feel sorry for Dorian, but not in overcoming my overall irritation at the scene.
I'm a lesbian irl and when I got his personal quest I double face palmed and groaned. Even I know Bioware is pushing a "gay agenda", and I honestly think straight guys would be more open to gay characters if their whole focus wasn't "Hello, I am character X and I'm gay. People cant accept me for who I am because I'm gay. Have I told you I'm gay?"
We are NOT all flamboyant, sex crazed, walking LGBT stereotypes irl so why are we being represented this way? I'm quite feminine, most of my friends are straight girls and the only difference between them & me in how we act is that I prefer a woman in my bed instead of a man
Just for once I'd like to see a character like Morrigan or Cullen be gay and be written where their sexuality is not the main focus of their character, an example of this would be Ellie from The Last Of Us. It detracts from the narrative and prevents straight people from identifying with them. A male can be strong/masculine and gay, just as a woman can be quite traditionally feminine but still identify as a lesbian.
Seriously Dorian & Sera are walking stereotypes and that just pisses me off to no end. Its the reason I refuse to romance either of them. Josephine, Cassandra and Iron Bull for me all the way
(Well, my inquisitors anyway haha)
Sorry for the rant, I'm just glad someone brought this up and I can see why his character is so jarring for some.
Arcade Gannon of Fallout New Vegas is an example of a well thought out gay character who doesn't wear his sexuality on his sleeve.
Why? I would think that since it's their game, they're allowed to share what they wish to. If anything, I thought they did a really nice job of including liberal ideas without making them sound preachy. They just...were part of the game, which I thought was fantastic.
Iron Bull not preachy? Jesus, the only way they could've made that scene with him and Krem more preachy if there was a black gospel choir on the background saying "Amen!" or "Say it girlfriend!" after every line of his. Dorian was okay, but the Krem scene was cringeworthy at best, I haven't felt so patronised in a Western game in a long, long time.
Guest_Raga_*
I've personally found the best way to handle the Krem situation is to ask 0 questions of him during Bull's introduction scene. Then later, I just go talk to him over in the corner of the Tavern by himself. You can ask him more or less the same "why pass as a man?" question there without the histrionics. I just chalk his cattiness up to not wanting to be interrogated about his gender in front of like 6 people, which is fair enough. (To be fair, I don't think this *is* the actual cause of his cattiness. I just headcannon it this way to prevent myself from acquiring an active distaste for him).
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
I didn't like it either. I mostly didn't like it because I never wanted this to be a story about gay rights. I just wanted it to be a story that happened to have gay characters in it. It kind of leaves me feeling like "what do you *want* from me, Bioware? To sit through various mandatory lectures so you can convince me how progressive you are?" I support gay rights in RL. You are preaching to a choir. In DA, I just want to hang out with my gay friends and/or play a gay character without somebody explaining to me yet again how terrible gay conversion therapy is (evil blood magic to "ungay" Dorian I'm looking at you) or how horrible it is when someone's parents reject them because they are gay. No kidding. Anyone with 2 neurons knows this.
*Edit* I have to give my normal note that Dorian's voice actor nailed this scene, despite having not such a great scene to work with. He convinced me if nothing else in the scene did. He succeeded in making me feel sorry for Dorian, but not in overcoming my overall irritation at the scene.
exactly my feelings it just seemed forced
I think it's interesting to see how different people take away different things from the same scene.
That is why I love BioWare games, parts of their story and their characters can be debated in the same way I'd debate a story or characters in a novel or film.
This is something that many video games still lack. Normally the meaning or a scene or the motivations of a character are so obvious that they leave no room for doubt.
The problem I have with Dorian is that he is the steriotypical, flamboyant gay stereotype who even has a daddy issues personal quest. I do like him as a character, but the gay part feels forced down the throat. Why can't we have more realistic gay characters like Arcade from Fallout New Vegas? He is gay, but doesn't have to remind us that during every single dialogue. And Arcade also had daddy issues, but they had nothing to do with his sexuality. Ugh.
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
The entire loss of faith story arc for Cassandra (and Leliana and the Inquisitor if played that) mirror real life too. That's how these games work. The mirror to real life gives you an access point. Perhaps it's just because this is one of the first AAA games where a major character deals with this story that it seems "heavy handed". In five years, when this kind of content is more common, I suspect we'll look back on Dorian and think, "Wait, people thought that this was heavy handed?"
And, frankly, none of the personal character stories need to be in the game. They are there to flesh out the world. His content was no less needed than Blackwall's.
yeah but the crisis of faith story arcs weren't preachy or forced like Dorians quest
Guest_Raga_*
I actually don't mind Dorian being over the top or unapologetically gay or hitting on my male Inquisitor. He doesn't have to "turn the gay off." It's just his personal quest I don't like. It's more like "turn the politics off, please."
Considering that BW has had several gay and lesbian character that never even address it in a major way I'd say them finally bringing it up as "a thing" is refreshing.
With fantasy you have to try and make it seem realistic to the audience. In this case the gay community and others interested
Which makes me laugh when people complain about breats on women in games when average female breast sizes have been increasing over the years.
They have? Man, I need to get back on the market...
The problem I have with Dorian is that he is the steriotypical, flamboyant gay stereotype who even has a daddy issues personal quest. I do like him as a character, but the gay part feels forced down the throat. Why can't we have more realistic gay characters like Arcade from Fallout New Vegas? He is gay, but doesn't have to remind us that during every single dialogue. And Arcade also had daddy issues, but they had nothing to do with his sexuality. Ugh.
...you are aware that there are actual gay people that act stereotypically gay...you know they do all that gay pride stuff and go to gay bars and have gay sex and act all gay like they are gay or something...
yeah but the crisis of faith story arcs weren't preachy or forced like Dorians quest
Maybe it comes off that way to you because you have an issue with it? It's also not forced, you don't have to pursue a gay relationship with him. You choose to flirt with him and choose to do his quest. And the game doesn't reward you for doing it either like in ME2. So no, it's not forced.
I actually don't mind Dorian being over the top or unapologetically gay or hitting on my male Inquisitor. He doesn't have to "turn the gay off." It's just his personal quest I don't like. It's more like "turn the politics off, please."
I never thought he was over-the-top gay; I just wished his personal mission didn't revolve around parents being anti-homosexual. I'm a little concerned that many writers out there think all gay people have to offer in a story is just being gay.
The problem I have with Dorian is that he is the steriotypical, flamboyant gay stereotype who even has a daddy issues personal quest. I do like him as a character, but the gay part feels forced down the throat. Why can't we have more realistic gay characters like Arcade from Fallout New Vegas? He is gay, but doesn't have to remind us that during every single dialogue. And Arcade also had daddy issues, but they had nothing to do with his sexuality. Ugh.
You think Dorian is flamboyant? Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of Panti Bliss
Dorian was flirty and charming. His personality reminds me very much of Wesley from 'The Princess Bride' who is a straight character.
I get the feeling that if he were flirty and charming and straight then he wouldn't be flamboyant but because he is flirty and charming and gay he is.
Dorian always struck me as "arrogant aristocrat" stereotype more than anything.
Retour en haut
