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[Silvarren]

Definitely spoilers, with regards to romance stuff.

 

Long story short, for a quick reference, check out Game Theory's channel on Youtube regarding LGBT and video games.

 

So... I'm glad they included "straight" gay characters (haha, get it?) in the game. I actually think that's really cool. However, I object to how they're depicted. They're both effectively stereotypes, or deviant. Something similar happened in DA2. In fact, it's a trend in gaming's depiction of homosexual people in general. In mainstream video games, gay people tend to be shown to be "different," as opposed to just people who happen to be gay.

 

I play a "whatever-sexual" male elf who flirts with everyone at every opportunity, for some background...

 

Now, I haven't completed any of the romances, so this observation is just based on where I'm at in the various courtings. I'm at the point where I've got a choice to enter into a relationship between Dorian, Josephine or Cassandra. Here's what I mean about the gay relationships in Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition being wrong:

 

Let's start with Cassandra. At first, she's somewhat cold and doesn't respond to flirting well. Eventually, you need to try to woo her with gifts and doing your man-thing, trying to get the girl, so to speak. You have to "work" for her affection. You can't just say, "Hey, I like to flirt with you, and I may want to have a relationship" and have them just latch on to you.

 

Same thing with Josephine. If you want to get with her, you need to defend her life one way or another against some assassins. It takes time and effort. There's the actual building of a rapport.

 

Leiliana, a bisexual character from Dragon Age: Origins, you do something similar. You have to confront her past, protect her life, say nice things, give gifts, etc.

 

In my opinion, these are fairly well-written, in a Bioware sense. However, the gay relationships are ridiculous. Let's do a quick review of the relationships and the type of people they are:

 

Cassandra - Strong, passionate about justice, tough on the outside, soft on the inside. Romanced by treating her like a woman. Requires the protection of her life to romance.

 

Josephine - Exotic, comes from nobility, has integrity, has a little bit of a school-girlish demeanor when it comes to relationships. Requires the player to play the hero and protect her.

 

Leiliana - Again, strong, different, kind of special, secretive, talented, caring, romantic. Requires protecting her life to romance her.

 

Seeing a pattern? Ok, let's move on to my problem, finally.

 

Dorian - Quirky, sarcastic, funny, antagonistic, comes from a place most consider "evil / bad," rejects his family's intentions. Flirty. Romanced by finding out that his dad has a problem with him being gay. Mention that you think that's great in a flirty way and suddenly you're all over each other. If this happened in real life, I would be offended and completely freaked out. I just expressed attraction and then bam, mouth-rape. I felt extremely violated, even as a person who doesn't really care about gender. Immediately after discovering he's straight homosexual, starts making more sexual comments, particularly with Giselle. "You'd be surprised at the credit my tongue gets me." To his credit, when you subtly say that you're not interested, "You're brave," instead of "I think that makes you even better in my eyes," he backs off and it doesn't seem too awkward. 

 

His romance, for lack of better words, lacks both romance, sincerity and integrity. It's apparently assumed that if two gay people flirt and find out that the other is gay, that's a green light to start sucking face, which is kind of the opposite of how real relationships work in real life.

 

Sera - I like her, but she's crude, enjoys torturing (figuratively) nobility, or people that she sees as "big people." Not exactly attractive. Kind of plain, veering on ugly. (That nose, yo.) I haven't romanced her (not a female), but I can only imagine that if I was, I'd just have to say that I too have a thing for my own sex and we would just suck face.

 

Anders - A rebel mage, impulsive, mass murderer, possessed. Varric ends up saying that he wound up insane in the end. Again, deviant. Expressing mild interest results in a make-out session without engaging in a romance.

 

TL;DR - Homosexuals in these games are depicted as sexually over-eager, and they are generally "not normal," ie. excessively crude, not serious, insane / possessed. Straight characters are far more well-adjusted or normal-ish, and require actual time / effort to get with, as opposed to simply finding out that they're of the same sex and interested. 

 

-S

[Terodil]

I honestly think you're reading too much into it -- or maybe expecting too much.

Characters are not just defined by the two dimensions "sexuality" and "flirtiness" (or "availability"). Their individual histories and preferences make them into the complex people they are. If you want accurate representation, you will either end up with so many NPCs/companions that the price tag will soar sky-high, or with an indistinguishable, unpalatable mush of characteristics that presents the perfect statistical average. In fact, I'd argue that Bioware has already sacrificed too much variety on the altar of accurate representation (and I'm not talking about the inclusion of gay romances!).

Besides, I'm not sure that your perception isn't somewhat partial/skewed. What about other characters such as Jack (straight, yet extremely available, and also rather destructive/psychotic, depending on the degree of empathy/sympathy you are willing to extend)? Or Isabela and Zhevran (who were both bi, okay, but could enter a straight relationship. Extremely... 'open' and quite criminal)?

TL,DR: A game with a limited number of characters is never going to allow accurate representation unless it makes itself utterly uninteresting.

[daveliam]

I do tend to think that they make LGBT characters to be 'outsiders' too often.  I'm longing for more 'normal', well-adjusted LGBT characters in the DA series.  Josephine is the only one, I'd say, out of the ten of them.

 

However, if we expand out to the ME series, then you get much more of what you are looking for.  Kaidan, Steve, and Samantha are all examples of well-adjusted (mas o menos, given the circumstances) LGBT characters.

 

Regarding the over-eager sexuality, aspect.  I'm not so sure that this is a problem.  I actually think it fits Dorian's personality very well.  He uses casual sex (and drinking) as a way to cope with his feelings of inadequacy because of his parental rejection.  Plus, in Tevinter, m/m relationships are usually casual.  I think it's a pretty accurate representation of what you'd expect to see from him, actually.

[Gambit458]

I'm scratching my head right now..What does Josie and Cassandra have to do with homosexuals? They aren't gay(I know Cassandra isn't but I can't remember if Josie's bi or not)though I think maybe I'm missing him using them in terms of personality. 

[jlb524]

You really like to play the man who protects and courts his woman kinda thing I take it?

Also, Leliana/Josephine aren't straight, so your conclusion is a bit off.

[Silvarren]

I honestly think you're reading too much into it -- or maybe expecting too much.

Characters are not just defined by the two dimensions "sexuality" and "flirtiness" (or "availability"). Their individual histories and preferences make them into the complex people they are. If you want accurate representation, you will either end up with so many NPCs/companions that the price tag will soar sky-high, or with an indistinguishable, unpalatable mush of characteristics that presents the perfect statistical average. In fact, I'd argue that Bioware has already sacrificed too much variety on the altar of accurate representation (and I'm not talking about the inclusion of gay romances!).

Besides, I'm not sure that your perception isn't somewhat partial/skewed. What about other characters such as Jack (straight, yet extremely available, and also rather destructive/psychotic, depending on the degree of empathy/sympathy you are willing to extend)? Or Isabela and Zhevran (who were both bi, okay, but could enter a straight relationship. Extremely... 'open' and quite criminal)?

TL,DR: A game with a limited number of characters is never going to allow accurate representation unless it makes itself utterly uninteresting.

 

 

Well, with regards to Zhevran and Isabela, that's kind of my point. They were both criminals as well, and Zhevran was implied to be into S&M. From ME, Jack was stereotypical in a different way, where all she apparently needed was a good ****ing to fix her issues. I will concede that the relationships are a bit different in ME, though.

 

I suppose one of the reasons it sticks out to me so much is that it was made to be such a big deal for there to be a gay character in Inquisition, and he turns out to be kind of a deviant. I'm also not so sure about male on male relationships being casual in Tevinter, either. It seemed like his family wanted something very different for him, for him to be "normal," which is why they were going to use blood magic on him. If it was normal for male on male in Tevinter, why would that be done?

 

For me, it just seemed to be very jarring to go from "Hey, this is fun," to "Grabs face and engages tongue" between my main character and Dorian without even being in a "relationship." And I guess that's the thing. If I was actually on the relationship path, I wouldn't give it a second thought, but for me, that kiss came out of left field. Very few games leave me going, "What?! No! Noooooooo!"

 

And as for coping... why can't the female characters cope with their issues with casual make-out sessions? Why just that one character / character type? And very much agreed about Josephine being well written / adjusted. xD

 

-S

[Gambit458]

A little off point but..People do know it's Zevran and not Zhevran right?

[Silvarren]

I'm scratching my head right now..What does Josie and Cassandra have to do with homosexuals? They aren't gay(I know Cassandra isn't but I can't remember if Josie's bi or not)though I think maybe I'm missing him using them in terms of personality. 

 

Consider Cassandra to be a "baseline" straight character. Courting her requires actual interaction, effort, etc. The gay only man requires acceptance and then it's on.

 

Regarding Josephine's sexuality... Hey, you're right. I actually didn't know that she was bi, and I think that's great. That means she's well-balanced / well written. But that's the thing: We're okay with women on women, but not male on male. The second two mustaches are involved, things get weird.

 

Hehe... I don't know about being the kind of guy who likes to protect his woman, but I do think that the people I'm trying to romance shouldn't just fall all over themselves just because I said "Hi."

[WildOrchid]

Sera - I like her, but she's crude, enjoys torturing (figuratively) nobility, or people that she sees as "big people." Not exactly attractive. Kind of plain, veering on ugly. (That nose, yo.) I haven't romanced her (not a female), but I can only imagine that if I was, I'd just have to say that I too have a thing for my own sex and we would just suck face.

 

She does torture nobles but only those who really deserve it. Especially those Orlesian ones.

Does she torture Cassandra? Or Dorian? Or Josie? (apart for the prank she did on Josie, then again Leliana pranks her as well with Sera)

 

 

And her nose is awesome, boop material. And those lips.... yummy. She's awesome..... ok enough.

 

 

I still don't get your point though, they all are different personalities even though i'll admit that Bioware does follow a certain "pattern" with bi/gay people. Would've loved a gay lady like Cassandra or Aveline.... fingers crossed for next DA.

 

 

Edit for huge typo, ugh.

[Draining Dragon]

Good grief.

Some people are never happy.

[Panda]

More gay KISA's and more sex-oriented straighties, would that be good way to put it? ^^

[Silvarren]

She does torture nobles but only those who really deserve it. Especially those Orlesian ones.

Does she torture Cassandra? Or Dorian? Or Josie? (apart for the prank she did on Josie, then again Leliana pranks her as well with Sera)

 

 

She does kind of antagonize Cassandra in the banter. But I guess what I mean is that she's crass / crude. As a personality, that's cool. But why make the only gay-only character that way? Why not just have a classy high-brow female who's not interested in men?

[Shechinah]

(to Silvarren) Actually, I believe that if you pursue the renegade option in the Jack romance, she sees it as a one night stand and it closes down any further romantical progress but if you don't and select the paragon way, it opens up for the romance. I need to look it up again but I don't think you can call it "****king to fix her issues". She still has them, she is just able to believe that you are not just out to use her.

 

The thing about Zevran in Origins is that you can achieve his love romance without kissing or sleeping with him as long as you activate his romance before encountering the Crows in Denerim. That's how I did it; I managed to get pretty much all of his dialogue, I think, without needing to activate the romance beforehand.

 

Additionally, it was not just Zevran and Isabella who were criminals; Morrigan was an apostate, Alistair was a Grey Warden falsely accused of the murder of the king of Fereldan, Merill is likewise an apostate as is Anders and Fenris is guilty of squatting.  

[Gambit458]

You know, speaking of Anders..I think they should've left him alone. In Awakening he seemed very much straight, he hit on women quite a lot and mentioned how he wanted a good ole girl or something of the like, yet in 2 he became bisexual. When it comes to personality and sexuality, I think Anders got pretty butchered lol

[WildOrchid]

She does kind of antagonize Cassandra in the banter. But I guess what I mean is that she's crass / crude. As a personality, that's cool. But why make the only gay-only character that way? Why not just have a classy high-brow female who's not interested in men?

 

Eh, it's more of her wanting to make Cass see the commoner's POV. But she wasn't "torturing" her at all... and yep she can be crude and she can't help it.

 

Maybe we'll get this kind of woman in next game. Hopefully.

[Silvarren]

More gay KISA's and more sex-oriented straighties, would that be good way to put it? ^^

 

Sorry, I'm not familiar with "KISA," but... yes? xD

 

I'm all for variation in terms of sexual behavior, but why make the gay characters in particular the "easy" ones?

 

I'm just saying, why is it not the opposite way, with all of the straight characters being easy and it being difficult to get with the gay characters? (And I do mean gay, not bi.) That would even make more sense, because they wouldn't trust you to not persecute them, in a certain way.

 

I mean, seriously, if I was being flirty with Dorian as myself and he tried to do what he did there, I would be totally turned off and think there was something wrong with him, the way he immediately went into make-out mode. And in that regard, it's not just him. It's like the writers assumed that because I expressed mild interest in a gay character, my guy just jumped right on that. It just seems very stilted.

 

And sorry for the double replies, I'm not good at multi-quoting. xD

 

-S

[Panda]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with "KISA," but... yes? xD

 

I'm all for variation in terms of sexual behavior, but why make the gay characters in particular the "easy" ones?

 

I'm just saying, why is it not the opposite way, with all of the straight characters being easy and it being difficult to get with the gay characters? (And I do mean gay, not bi.) That would even make more sense, because they wouldn't trust you to not persecute them, in a certain way.

 

I mean, seriously, if I was being flirty with Dorian as myself and he tried to do what he did there, I would be totally turned off and think there was something wrong with him, the way he immediately went into make-out mode. And in that regard, it's not just him. It's like the writers assumed that because I expressed mild interest in a gay character, my guy just jumped right on that. It just seems very stilted.

 

And sorry for the double replies, I'm not good at multi-quoting. xD

 

-S

 

KISA stands for "Knight In Shining Armor", character type like Alistair, Cassandra and Cullen and one that people have been requesting BW would use for gay character as well so there would be more noble and not so sexually active/open gay character as many of them are.

 

I think it would be nice if BW would use less same character tropes with similar characters. Like there is lot of these straight KISA's, ambitious & cold & sassy women (Vivienne, Anora, Morrigan, Celene) and sexually active/open gay (using this now as umbrella term) characters. It would be good if BW could make gay KISA's, ambitious & cold & sassy male characters and sexually active/open straight characters in next game to change things around a bit

[Silvarren]

Eh, it's more of her wanting to make Cass see the commoner's POV. But she wasn't "torturing" her at all... and yep she can be crude and she can't help it.

 

Maybe we'll get this kind of woman in next game. Hopefully.

 

I can dream.

 

Regarding Jack... Yes, I think I was aware of that renegade option. But I would argue that "fixing" a psychologically broken character who is straight is far more common in games than it is for gay characters.

 

My main problem is that there was so much of a todo made about Dorian being "straight" gay, and that was kind of a chance for a gay character to shine in a not weird way, and it turned out just like every other depiction in media. It happens all the time, when games get imported from other countries. Characters get lines referring to their homosexuality removed, or entire personalities shifted / changed. Again, it's ok for women to get with women, but two tentpoles is a no-no, or is weird.

 

I just wish my favorite media would give more accurate representation of different peoples. Incidentally, I think most of the other characters are well-written and act as "normal" as people would expect them to in a fantasy game. xD

 

-S

 

*Edited because words.

[Silvarren]

KISA stands for "Knight In Shining Armor", character type like Alistair, Cassandra and Cullen and one that people have been requesting BW would use for gay character as well so there would be more noble and not so sexually active/open gay character as many of them are.

 

I think it would be nice if BW would use less same character tropes with similar characters. Like there is lot of these straight KISA's, ambitious & cold & sassy women (Vivienne, Anora, Morrigan, Celene) and sexually active/open gay (using this now as umbrella term) characters. It would be good if BW could make gay KISA's, ambitious & cold & sassy male characters and sexually active/open straight characters in next game to change things around a bit

 

Holy hell, yes, all of that. xD

 

(I think the last cold / sassy / ambitious male character Bioware put out was Edwin from Baldur's Gate. Straight, but snooty and not a super great guy. Could be wrong, though. He's just what comes immediately to mind.) xD

[Terodil]

Eh, I think you missed my point about Jack. If I got you right, you were saying that you felt Dorian was not representative due to him

1. being gay and

2.
a- being very open/available/direct
b- deviant in the sense of "bad"/"evil" reputation. (an opinion which I personally don't share btw, he's a bit like Drizzt if you want)

My point was that BW games have shown

1. straight people being
a- open/available/direct
b- deviant in the sense of "bad"/"evil".
(prime example: Jack)

2. straight people being
a- somewhat reserved
b- "good"
(prime example: Cass etc.)

3. gay people being
a- open/available/direct
b- deviant in the sense of "bad"/"evil"
(your example: Dorian)
 
4. gay people being
a- somewhat reserved
b- "good"
(prime example: Steve)

plus all kind of additional permutations.

TBH I think it's just a case of "you can't please everybody". If they'd made Dorian stand-offish and reserved, I bet we would have seen a post complaining about it here too, saying that so many straight people were available so easily, but gays got the short end of the stick because they had to "work" for their romance.
 
It's just a sample size of 1! You can't expect it to be representative without stepping on somebody's toes.

[In Exile]

I'm confused - you think the problem with Dorian is that he's all over you about as quickly as he sees that you wouldn't flee in the other direction?

[Silvarren]

TBH I think it's just a case of "you can't please everybody". If they'd made Dorian stand-offish and reserved, I bet we would have seen a post complaining about it here too, saying that so many straight people were available so easily, but gays got the short end of the stick because they had to "work" for their romance.
 
It's just a sample size of 1! You can't expect it to be representative without stepping on somebody's toes.

 

That's possible. But my main point was that the majority of the characters are represented in a diverse way, as you said, but the one gay-only male character (minority) happens to be the open / direct / easy type.

 

 

I'm confused - you think the problem with Dorian is that he's all over you about as quickly as he sees that you wouldn't flee in the other direction?

 

 

Yes. I would think it's just as strange / jarring if a straight female character did that, as well.

 

-S

[Terodil]

But... but...

Isn't that a problem?

I mean you have ONE male, gay companion. What attributes (besides being male and gay) do you assign to him to be representative?

No combination of attributes whatsoever is going to be accepted as "representative". It simply cannot be done. You are demanding the impossible.

... or have I missed your point (again)?

[In Exile]

That's possible. But my main point was that the majority of the characters are represented in a diverse way, as you said, but the one gay-only male character (minority) happens to be the open / direct / easy type.




Yes. I would think it's just as strange / jarring if a straight female character did that, as well.

-S

I have to diagree. But for whatever reason a fair amount of my IRL partners were like that (quick to jump on my gun, so to speak).

[Silvarren]

But... but...

Isn't that a problem?

I mean you have ONE male, gay companion. What attributes (besides being male and gay) do you assign to him to be representative?

No combination of attributes whatsoever is going to be accepted as "representative". It simply cannot be done. You are demanding the impossible.

... or have I missed your point (again)?

 

I would say that Dorian is... not normal. As in, he's a Tevinter mage, who typically have some kind of stigma associated with them. He's a pariah for almost the entire party because of it. Immediately after his "outing", he makes sexual comments towards Mother Giselle. I haven't proceeded much past that point, so feel free to correct me if he gets better / worse. Or... Maybe that's the other problem? That that's one of his main attributes? That could just be nit-picking, though.

 

In all honesty, I rather liked the way he interacted with Iron Bull, and I liked the way he broached the "People think we're intimate" conversation, as well as how he reacted when I turned him down. I still like him. It was just that one scene with that kiss that made me go "Waaah?!" I feel like that part in particular was remarkably out of place and... forced, in a way?

 

I have to diagree. But for whatever reason a fair amount of my IRL partners were like that (quick to jump on my gun, so to speak).

 

Lucky.

 

-S