160 réponses à ce sujet

[Terodil]

But isn't "not being normal" a good thing?

If there's one criticism about the characters in this Bioware game I'd say it's that they are TOO normal/average. I'd love to have the likes of Mordin (not normal), Jack (definitely not normal), Miranda (making a point of not being normal) etc. instead of the likes of Cassandra and Josephine. I personally find their normality, their plainness just boring. I'd hate to play a game where everybody is "normal".

Eh, I guess this really is a matter of taste. I can understand that you felt uncomfortable around this particular companion. I don't think it's a systematic fault we can blame on Bioware though.

[Joseph Warrick]

The scene with Dorian's father is disturbing. I feel like I'm standing there awkwardly while younger David Gaider has an argument with his dad. IIRC he said that storyline served to purge inner demons or something along those lines.

[HTTP 404]

I think this issue is especially harder to handle in a medieval type fantasy setting.  Do we make women and homosexuals outsiders as reflected in our own Middle Ages view like GoT or do we be more accepting of them even more so than our own society or do we find something in the middle where some of the societies in Dragon Age are more accepting while others are not?

 

Either way, I am happy that Dragon Age is tackling this and forging a path for other game developers.  Far too often we look at the short comings instead of looking at progress.

[Silvarren]

But isn't "not being normal" a good thing?

If there's one criticism about the characters in this Bioware game I'd say it's that they are TOO normal/average. I'd love to have the likes of Mordin (not normal), Jack (definitely not normal), Miranda (making a point of not being normal) etc. instead of the likes of Cassandra and Josephine. I personally find their normality, their plainness just boring. I'd hate to play a game where everybody is "normal".

Eh, I guess this really is a matter of taste. I can understand that you felt uncomfortable around this particular companion. I don't think it's a systematic fault we can blame on Bioware though.

 

Hm... Well yes, "not normal," is good, but within a certain parameter. See setting kittens on fire vs. liking liverwurst. I still feel comfortable around Dorian, but that one kissing scene just came out of nowhere. It went from just being flirty and accepting to "I'm inside your mouth now." 

 

 

The scene with Dorian's father is disturbing. I feel like I'm standing there awkwardly while younger David Gaider has an argument with his dad. IIRC he said that storyline served to purge inner demons or something along those lines.

 

 

It's not exactly a situation I'm unfamiliar with, so I wasn't super disturbed. It was really just the aftermath that put me off.

 

 

I think this issue is especially harder to handle in a medieval type fantasy setting.  Do we make women and homosexuals outsiders as reflected in our own Middle Ages view like GoT or do we be more accepting of them even more so than our own society or do we find something in the middle where some of the societies in Dragon Age are more accepting while others are not?

 

Either way, I am happy that Dragon Age is tackling this and forging a path for other game developers.  Far too often we look at the short comings instead of looking at progress.

 

Well, you know I don't mean "uber realistic," because it's a fantasy game. I just think it's odd that a debut gay character was depicted that way. And I very much agree about them putting more diversity into a mainstream game.

[daveliam]

Holy hell, yes, all of that. xD

 

(I think the last cold / sassy / ambitious male character Bioware put out was Edwin from Baldur's Gate. Straight, but snooty and not a super great guy. Could be wrong, though. He's just what comes immediately to mind.) xD

 

Regarding the first part (the gay KISA).  You might find this thread to be filled with like-minded people:  http://forum.bioware...= gay knight. It's been going for three and a half months and has 75 pages in it!

[Silvarren]

Regarding the first part (the gay KISA).  You might find this thread to be filled with like-minded people:  http://forum.bioware...= gay knight. It's been going for three and a half months and has 75 pages in it!

 

Haha... That's great. I'll have to check that out. And just a quick clarification: I don't mean that it must be this way or that way, or that other character types aren't represented. I'm speaking in terms of generalities, with all the dangers that encompasses. That said, as a general rule, this type of gay character is the kind that makes it into games / movies, (Hi there, Wallace from Scott Pilgrim!) while, as you say, a knight in shining armor that happens to be gay is like a... unicorn. With rainbows. xD And even then, I'd bet that the knight was only rescuing you because he wanted to sleep with you. Not that that's a bad thing...

 

-S

[XMissWooX]

I think they're perfectly realistic depictions of homosexuality, but not particularly holistic depictions of homosexuality.

[daveliam]

I think they're perfectly realistic depictions of homosexuality, but not particularly holistic depictions of homosexuality.

 

This is an excellent point.  Dorian is very realistic to me.  Hell, I know about three guys who came out of the exact same mold as Dorian (complete with Daddy issues covered by a thin veneer of sarcasm and snark).  But he's not representational of all gay guys.

 

We've only had two gay guys so far:  Steve and Dorian.  And they are very different from each other.  And both are realistic representations of gay men. 

[Silvarren]

I think they're perfectly realistic depictions of homosexuality, but not particularly holistic depictions of homosexuality.

 

Truly? If you know any gay friends, please test this theory. Say something along the lines of "Hey, I think it's great that you're gay, and I'm kind of interested." Move forward a few steps with a coy look on your face. If they move to embrace you and kiss you, I would be sincerely impressed, and would guess that you're either very charming, or very pretty.

 

-S

 

Edit: Changed "people" to "friends." xD

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

 

Frankly, I think everybody in Dragon Age is crazy.

 

 

 

 

(Wouldn't have it any other way.)

[Silvarren]

[Frankly, I think everybody in Dragon Age is crazy.

 

(Wouldn't have it any other way.)

 

The Silv abides. But yes, in the end, it's only my opinion. Bioware will do what it will. xD

 

-S

[Winged Silver]

 

Dorian - Quirky, sarcastic, funny, antagonistic, comes from a place most consider "evil / bad," rejects his family's intentions. Flirty. Romanced by finding out that his dad has a problem with him being gay. Mention that you think that's great in a flirty way and suddenly you're all over each other. If this happened in real life, I would be offended and completely freaked out. I just expressed attraction and then bam, mouth-rape. I felt extremely violated, even as a person who doesn't really care about gender. Immediately after discovering he's straight homosexual, starts making more sexual comments, particularly with Giselle. "You'd be surprised at the credit my tongue gets me." To his credit, when you subtly say that you're not interested, "You're brave," instead of "I think that makes you even better in my eyes," he backs off and it doesn't seem too awkward. 

 

His romance, for lack of better words, lacks both romance, sincerity and integrity. It's apparently assumed that if two gay people flirt and find out that the other is gay, that's a green light to start sucking face, which is kind of the opposite of how real relationships work in real life.

 

I'm going to have to disagree, based on a couple of things (I have yet to romance Sera personally, so I may be missing some things based on that). In Dorian's conversations, it's definitively brought up that the Tevinters "are a passionate people". And then he lists a couple of things this applies to, including relationships. While this to my mind doesn't necessarily mean that all Tevinters all ready to jump into a relationship, I felt his fast pacing in the romance arc was more a comment on Tevinter culture, rather than a comment on a gay man. Whether or not his other mannerisms are stereotypical, I can't say, not being a gay man myself, but I didn't get the the impression that Bioware took the "fast romantic gay man" route.

[Bocochoco]

If you don't think gays are hypersexual then you've never seen two guys belt looping at a gay bar

[Silvarren]

I'm going to have to disagree, based on a couple of things (I have yet to romance Sera personally, so I may be missing some things based on that). In Dorian's conversations, it's definitively brought up that the Tevinters "are a passionate people". And then he lists a couple of things this applies to, including relationships. While this to my mind doesn't necessarily mean that all Tevinters all ready to jump into a relationship, I felt his fast pacing in the romance arc was more a comment on Tevinter culture, rather than a comment on a gay man. Whether or not his other mannerisms are stereotypical, I can't say, not being a gay man myself, but I didn't get the the impression that Bioware took the "fast romantic gay man" route.

 

It's true that he brings up the passionate thing. And that's great. But when he said, "I hope you don't think less of me," and I said, "I actually think more of you," that was not supposed to be code for "You're gay too? Let's make out!" It's really not about the relationship. I loved joking with Dorian and being flirty, but going from confirmation that he's gay from his interaction with his father to comforting him with your tongue was just way too out there for me (haha). That is, it was very out of place, it seemed. And I guess technically, it's not just about Dorian in particular, but how my character was depicted as reacting as well. After all, it was my character that initiated the kiss.  That is, it seemed odd that it was assumed that that was what I wanted at that time. Sense makes?

 

 

If you don't think gays are hypersexual then you've never seen two guys belt looping at a gay bar

 

 

You can see the same thing with straight or gay people grinding on any dance floor in a club. So... everyone in a bar is hypersexual, I guess?

 

-S

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Consider Cassandra to be a "baseline" straight character. Courting her requires actual interaction, effort, etc. The gay only man requires acceptance and then it's on.
 
Regarding Josephine's sexuality... Hey, you're right. I actually didn't know that she was bi, and I think that's great. That means she's well-balanced / well written.

Not surprising Josephine would be mistaken for straight considering her bisexuality is hidden, i thought Cassandra appeared more like a potential bi option seeing as she enjoys flirts & compliments from a female PC while Josephine just seems to date a female so lesbian/bi PC's have more then 1 choice to choose from

[Captain Wiseass]

You can see the same thing with straight or gay people grinding on any dance floor in a club. So... everyone in a bar is hypersexual, I guess?

 

-S

That gibes with my (admittedly limited) experience of the bar scene.

[XMissWooX]

Truly? If you know any gay friends, please test this theory. Say something along the lines of "Hey, I think it's great that you're gay, and I'm kind of interested." Move forward a few steps with a coy look on your face. If they move to embrace you and kiss you, I would be sincerely impressed, and would guess that you're either very charming, or very pretty.
 
-S
 
Edit: Changed "people" to "friends." xD

I don't really see how that's applicable.
In DAI you can't enter into a proper romance until Skyhold, so depending on how you played you may have spent the past 20 hours or so running around and flirting with said person and generally building up to the relationship. In which case I could envision a scenario like the above being perfectly realistic.
And, as I said before, even if that may be a realistic response from a gay person, it is by no means representative of any number of gay people.

But for the topic at hand: I do agree that the LIs have a tendency to stick to certain molds. I know there is a fair bit of interest in a 'White Knight' type gay LI, and as a woman I'd love to have an LI not dissimilar from Dorian or Morrigan, so I think that a dramatic breaking away from the sexuality=personality correlation in future games would be wonderful.

[Silvarren]

Not surprising Josephine would be mistaken for straight considering her bisexuality is hidden, i thought Cassandra appeared more like a potential bi option seeing as she enjoys flirts & compliments from a female PC while Josephine just seems to date a female so lesbian/bi PC's have more then 1 choice to choose from

 

I think that's what I like about Josephine's bisexuality, if I'm perceiving it properly. Because I didn't experience it as a woman, I imagine it's something like, "Oh, I happen to be interested in women as well," as opposed to "You like girls too? Let's do this!" To me, that says good writing / characterization. Incidentally, I actually guessed that Cassandra might be gay, but that's my own mistake.

 

I actually thought that the limited romances was kind of cool, as well. I like that as the Inquisitor you don't just have a harem of ladies as a straight man.

 

 

But for the topic at hand: I do agree that the LIs have a tendency to stick to certain molds. I know there is a fair bit of interest in a 'White Knight' type gay LI, and as a woman I'd love to have an LI not dissimilar from Dorian or Morrigan, so I think that a dramatic breaking away from the sexuality=personality correlation in future games would be wonderful.

 

 

I've actually spent about 40 hours running around so far. xD And definitely agree about not having the sexuality=personality correlation.

 

-S

[Bocochoco]

It's true that he brings up the passionate thing. And that's great. But when he said, "I hope you don't think less of me," and I said, "I actually think more of you," that was not supposed to be code for "You're gay too? Let's make out!" It's really not about the relationship. I loved joking with Dorian and being flirty, but going from confirmation that he's gay from his interaction with his father to comforting him with your tongue was just way too out there for me (haha). That is, it was very out of place, it seemed. And I guess technically, it's not just about Dorian in particular, but how my character was depicted as reacting as well. After all, it was my character that initiated the kiss.  That is, it seemed odd that it was assumed that that was what I wanted at that time. Sense makes?
 

 
 
You can see the same thing with straight or gay people grinding on any dance floor in a club. So... everyone in a bar is hypersexual, I guess?
 
-S

 Possibly the common denominator is alcohol lol
And yeah, there have been times as a straight male I've within 2 minutes of meeting a girl start making out. So why then is it not realistic for a gay, who by the way doesn't have access to gay bars or online hookups, to immediately jump at the opportunity when attraction is evident?

[Chardonney]

I don't really see how that's applicable.
In DAI you can't enter into a proper romance until Skyhold, so depending on how you played you may have spent the past 20 hours or so running around and flirting with said person and generally building up to the relationship. In which case I could envision a scenario like the above being perfectly realistic.

 

I completely agree with you. It's not like the inquisitor's interest toward Dorian and the kiss right after came completely out of the blue. There was already quite unveiled flirting going on back at the Haven, which clearly showed Dorian that both parties were definitely interested; it's what I wanted my inquisitor to convey. And the the way I see the kiss scene, it was definitely the inquisitor who made the first move and Dorian took it from there. 

 

Perhaps it's just due to the different ways people see flirting. I'm not the kind of person who flirts around, not in game and not in the real world. If I flirt, I do it to show that yeah, I'm interested and when I'm interested in someone, I don't never ever flirt with anyone else. So based on that, the kiss didn't come too soon for me or out of the blue in any way. But that's just my opinion. 

[Silvarren]

 Possibly the common denominator is alcohol lol
And yeah, there have been times as a straight male I've within 2 minutes of meeting a girl start making out. So why then is it not realistic for a gay, who by the way doesn't have access to gay bars or online hookups, to immediately jump at the opportunity when attraction is evident?

Likely, about the alcohol. xD

 

And very suave about the making out. I'm doubting that you're not exceptional, though. And I think that it wouldn't matter if there were gay bars, because there's also no techno. Kidding.

 

But seriously, why does there have to be a specific place to pick someone up at all in this situation? What, just because I'm flirty and I helped you with your dad, it's obvious that we should get together? (And again, I'm not just saying that it's Dorian. It was apparently assumed that this was the opportune time for me to jump his bones as well. It was almost like, "Well, this is how gay people start relationships, right?"

 

I completely agree with you. It's not like the inquisitor's interest toward Dorian and the kiss right after came completely out of the blue. There was already quite unveiled flirting going on back at the Haven, which clearly showed Dorian that both parties were definitely interested; it's what I wanted my inquisitor to convey. And the the way I see the kiss scene, it was definitely the inquisitor who made the first move and Dorian took it from there. 

 

Perhaps it's just due to the different ways people see flirting. I'm not the kind of person who flirts around, not in game and not in the real world. If I flirt, I do it to show that yeah, I'm interested and when I'm interested in someone, I don't never ever flirt with anyone else. So based on that, the kiss didn't come too soon for me or out of the blue in any way. But that's just my opinion. 

 

I do suppose that views on flirting are subjective. I flirt with everyone IRL and it never means anything. And yes, now that I think about it, that was part of my issue as well, that my Inquisitor took that particular opportunity to jump his bones. And perhaps more specifically, that what seemed like a flirty response resulted in my initiating the kiss. :| That almost seems like a "Well, you were asking for it" thing though...

 

-S

 

Edit: I'm being defeated by the forum controls. xD

[Silvarren]

... 

[Terodil]

Perhaps it's just due to the different ways people see flirting. I'm not the kind of person who flirts around, not in game and not in the real world. If I flirt, I do it to show that yeah, I'm interested and when I'm interested in someone, I don't never ever flirt with anyone else. So based on that, the kiss didn't come too soon for me or out of the blue in any way. But that's just my opinion.

That is actually a very good point. I remember seeing some interesting stuff about cultural differences during my studies years back; the author compared "relationship progress patterns" in continental Europe and US. Apparently, at least at the time during/shortly after WW2, the act of kissing occupied vastly different spots on the timeline from "eh who are you" to "omgiloveyou". In Europe, kissing took place only if intentions were very serious, and it was just a couple of steps ahead of going to bed together. In the US, kissing was rather non-committal and could happen quite early, after a few dances or something. According to the author, that discrepancy lead to a lot of misunderstandings and heartbreaks. =/

[SpiritMuse]

The flirt options are meant to show deliberate, personal, romantic interest in the other character. Are you really surprised that Dorian would respond to that? Or that your inquisitor would be genuinely into it if you chose that option?

[Shadow Quickpaw]

I think part of the problem with portraying realistic people, relationships, and sexualities is, well... I don't want to come off as rude because you have valid points, and I understand where you're coming from but...

 

It is a video game. More than that: A BIOWARE video game. Granted, Inquisition is a much better fair than being ninjamanced by Anders. But in a video game, there are limits to how you interact with someone. Up until now, in a Bioware game, there has been no such thing as a "casual flirt." If you pick the heart-shaped option, the game's code takes that to indicate you intend to pursue a romantic subplot with that character.

 

There's only one character in Inquisition who you can flirt with without it going anywhere: Harding. And even she has subtle inflection in her voice that she does care about what happens to you, even if she's not willing to pursue anything romantically.

 

In a video game (and in RPGs especially) there are limits to how you can respond to a situation or conversation. If you're picking the heart-flirt options consistently for a character, in a Bioware game that means you are pursuing that character romantically. At least with Bioware nowadays. I prefer this, because how you respond to someone will actually have some discernable and predictable effect. Both Kotor and Jade Empire could trigger romantic subplots without the player really meaning to, and the Baldur's Gate series seems almost more trouble than its worth to try to pursue a romance with a companion.