47 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Well, that was not the best example, I admit, but I think you get the idea. I would just like there to be a tie-in to the main plot in some way. Doesn't have to be major, but it must be required to move the plot forward.

 

Even then I'd say all that's required is that you are traveling the zone with some specific stake in mind. Exploration and restoring order are all well and good, but they are often too abstract to be motivating.

 

In other words, there's a big difference between setting up camps and closing Rifts on your way to a story objective, and doing so on the way to the edge of the map. Exploration can be rewarding in its own right, but it works better as a supplement to an objective.

[JadeDragon]

I agree crestwood had the best main side quest. Each zone should have had there main side quest have cutscenes and more interactions so that way we could have felt a real purpose to being there and having each zone have its own boss whom we can judge after. And even having us complete certain zones before a main quest and seeing small references to us being there should have been done. Defeating the freeman should have been brought up at least once in the winter palace by anybody. Maybe we could have even found out Flo was the one pulling the strings of the freeman and had her as there secret leader bringing more to her character. Scout Harding did a good job setting up the quest line the following could have had more though. Some zones did ok with it like Fallow Mire, Graves Du Lion and Crestwood but there should have been a interactive story being told in each area that effect the game. Zones like Du lion and Hissing should have been zones where we weakenthe Ventori and Red Templars and have it effect Abor later on. I think it shouldve went as so:

 

Emerald Graves - Fairbanks quest line - Maliphant or Carrol - Judge Maliphant or Carrol

 

Exalted Plains - Dalish and Orlesian War quest line - Another freeman boss/Maliphant - Judge boss

 

Western Approach - Venatori quest line - Sevis as boss - Judge Servis

 

Crestwood - Crestwood village quest line - Bandit boss - Judge Mayor

 

Fallow Mire - Save Soliders/Avvar quest line - Hand of Koth - Judge Chief leader

 

Storm Coast - Blades of Hess. Questline - Blades Leader - Judge Blades leader

 

Emprise Du Lion - Michel/Imshael quest line - Imshael - Judge Mayor or whoever that lady was

 

Hissing Waste - Venatori questline - Ventori Boss - Judge Venitori

[VelvetV]

What I mean is that the Freeman are deserters of both Celene and Gaspard's army, soldiers who said "eff it, not my war" and decided to form what they consider an autonomous entity. Now I understand why the Inquisition can't support the Freeman openly over the other political entities of Orlais, but surely there are more subtle ways we could have fleshed out this plot. What if Celene and Gaspard hatch a scheme to cooperate and destroy them, and you can either support this or try to find alternative methods to save what is surely a worthy goal to some Inquisitors? What if you could conscript the Freeman? Something anything? As far as I can tell they are enemy fodder in the quests in which they are involved. Even if we do ultimately have to destroy them, why not develop a character who is "the face" of the Freeman and paint their destruction as a tragic necessity that also has some personal weight to it?

Even better, make the Graves quest about supporting either Fairbanks or the Freemen, instead of supporting Fairbanks or doing nothing.

 

I had the same thoughts about Freemen of the Dales. I felt pretty horrible killing them off and given no other choice. Their motivations were alright, why would they want to die for Gaspard or Celene? They simply weren't as brainwashed as everyone else.

[MaxQuartiroli]

I think they did it with Jaws of Hakkon.

 

Here's why I don't get the "not worth it" label that many gave to it.

[Lightpanda]

*snip*

 

For Crestwood, you begin with a clear goal: close the giant rift causing infinite undead to spawn. Oh by the way, where are the undead spawning from? Old Crestwood which darkspawn flooded by messing with the flood gate controls. Wait, your character asks, darkspawn did that? The mayor of Crestwood fumbles a response. Hmmm. All right, first we need to take over this Keep since the gate controls are past that. Cue exciting Keep capture. Cool, now we move to the bridge over which is the cont- OH SNAP that's a dragon. He's flying south, though. Noted for the future. We go into the tavern and find two love birds hiding from their parents. Aww. So we open the gate. Go back outside and now Old Crestwood is bare. Pick up a few story-related quests (the Spirit of Command being notably interesting here) and go into a long dungeon to solve the rift problem. We do so, and come back out to a Crestwood that looks totes different because of closing the Rift. Go back to Crestwood and the mayor has fled with a confession. You go to your War Table, find him with a mission, bring him back and do a judgment. Then go kill that dragon you saw.

 

*snip*

Can you vote up Option 4 and Option 5 below? I'm doing a 'What would "having our choices matter" look like in-game' poll. Thanks!

 

Read (Option 1)
Hear (Option 2)
Talk (Option 3)
See (Option 4)
Experience (Option 5)

[jds1bio]

I agree with the OP, and wish I had seen this topic weeks earlier...I just wrote up one on how the Hinterlands refugee quest should have had a top-level tie-in like Crestwood does.

 

Still, I think it is ok for a region to exist just as a region, and let the player discover what is within.  The Forbidden Oasis, Storm Coast, and Fallow Mire are interesting enough as long as you enjoy exploring. 

 

In previous development generations, these are the types of areas that would have been cut from the game to make a release date, but discovered by people snooping in files.  At least here they are full areas that we get to play, so I would not want to lose access to something like this just because it may not have as fleshed out a quest as Crestwood.  The Fallow Mire's monuments kept me going until I reached the Avvar base.

 

As far as being overpowered, the main quest ends up being the most affected.  But since there are so many play styles, it's hard to make this balance for everyone.  On a region-specific basis, the solutions are either to have the enemies level up with the player (which I don't prefer at all), or to populate each region with some quests or challenges that could only be taken on late-game (or perhaps even post-game), and let each of these wrinkle the fabric of the final story conflicts in some way.  Easier said than done, of course.

[sophie22]

How gorgeous is crestwood though when you get out of that cave to find the sun shining and the fields with lavender where you can now see for miles! This is what make crestwood my favourite area. Except for maybe the emerald graves but that needed something similar. Like I would have liked the fairbanks to take over the first villa and also the inquisition use that haunted one as some sort of base. It would be great to see npcs in the areas fixing stuff up and when you come later they have improved or tidied things up

[In Exile]

I think they did it with Jaws of Hakkon.

 

Here's why I don't get the "not worth it" label that many gave to it.

 

I think most complaints are about the cost just being disproportionate to the overall amount of content. If every zone was like JoH I think you'd see a lot fewer complaints about DA:I's sidequests. This is ME1 all over again over the **** UEWs. 

[MaxQuartiroli]

I think most complaints are about the cost just being disproportionate to the overall amount of content. If every zone was like JoH I think you'd see a lot fewer complaints about DA:I's sidequests. This is ME1 all over again over the **** UEWs. 

 

If I think that back in 2010 I spent 5$ for Return to Ostargar which was less than 1h long I wouldn't say that JoH's price is disproportionate to the content.

But whether or not JoH is overpriced is a matter that has been already discussed to death elsewhere, therefore I don't want to bring up this discussion again

[Kantr]

I wish we had gotten the crestwood we saw in that leaked video

[Winged Silver]

Agreed with the OP.

 

Some zones, while interesting enough in a vague, casual exploration kind of way, lacked 'purpose'. I didn't always remember why I was in an area, or what I was even doing, in relation to the Inquisition.

 

Crestwood had a clear purpose, with its own backstory, and that was done well. 

 

I'd like to see more zones similar to this, in regards of main story quest quality, if Bioware chooses to continue using large maps.

[littlebrightpanda]

Can I have one zone that is like the Hissing Wastes? Totally lore, and not plot dependent?

 

All other zones should have main plots. I was kind of hoping that the Exalted Plains had something like that, but it fizzled out before anything really happens and Emerald Graves didn't give any options (although at least you saw Fairbanks and co. move after you beat the Freeman). Hinterlands had a lot of little threads, that were not connected at all. 

 

So, let there be one or two zones totally based on exploration, have proper plots in the other ones with any amount of side content you want, because I don't think people would have complained too much about mmo-ish side content if the main plot in the region would have been fine. Crestwood has mmo-ish side content. 

 

Also, it only occurred to me now, but you can completely ignore what happens in Crestwood and just contact Hawke's Warden friend and leave. There should have been something bad happening there as well, if you ignored it for too long after seeing the rift in the lake. 

 

JoH kind of shows how they're working on the formula and I hope that the next game will improve on it and not repeat. 

[Pondering Drifter]

Just to add to what you already pointed out, I think that the overall story line of Inquisition is part of the problem as well. The first half is fairly solid, but the whole plot line seems to unravel after "Here lies the Abyss". It seems that DAI suffers from being bloated with content that doesn't really have any plot relevance. Although DAO and DA II are not as robust as DAI in terms of sheer size, their main plot lines and subplots are much more integrated into their overall plot. While DAI has numerous zones to explore, the side quests within these areas don't tie well into the main plot and the current world state. What plot relevance does the Storm Coast, Fallow Mire, Exalted Plains, Emprise du Lion, Emerald Graves, and the Hissing Wastes have? Nothing we do or accomplish in these zones have any tangible consequences towards the main plot. In consequence, our sense of urgency for dealing with the Breach is lost due to being overloaded with singular dead end plot lines that do not weave into the larger tapestry that is Inquisition's story.

 

Unlike DAI, each major zone in DAO, (the Circle Tower, Bercilian Forest, Red Cliff, and Orzammar, contributed to the overall plot by having us rally an army to deal the Blight. Even though these zones had their own subplots, they are still related to the overall plot issue which was the Blight. We we're never sidetracked from our primary goal since we had the catastrophe of the Blight on our heels. Comparatively, the threat of the Breach is never felt though these different zones in DAI since they are in themselves their own isolated stories.

 

Because of this lack of focus, DAI story is comparatively weaker than its predecessors. If DAI was able to integrate the subplots of these zones into tangible consequences that effected and related to the main plot, I think DAI would have been a narrative thrill.

[In Exile]

Unlike DAI, each major zone in DAO, (the Circle Tower, Bercilian Forest, Red Cliff, and Orzammar, contributed to the overall plot by having us rally an army to deal the Blight. Even though these zones had their own subplots, they are still related to the overall plot issue which was the Blight. We we're never sidetracked from our primary goal since we had the catastrophe of the Blight on our heels. Comparatively, the threat of the Breach is never felt though these different zones in DAI since they are in themselves their own isolated stories.

 

I can't agree with this part of your post. DA:O fails at two levels. One, none of the MQ areas have any connection at all with the blight. Yes, there's some arbitrary threshold need to gather an army, but none of the areas even remotely interact with the blight plot. If we had to go to Antiva and ally with their merchant princes, the blight plot would be entirely identical. These are all just disconnected set pieces that randomly feature a part of the world. 

 

Two - and this is the important one - the whole "collect an army" plot gets undercut entirely in the endgame when you find out that the whole purpose of the army is to be a meatshield for the GWs. Their sole purpose is to successfully not choke on their own blood long enough for the GWs to kill the AD. It is actually impossible - without a proper GW (i.e., one who did the Joining) - for the armies to win.

 

So we're actually 100% sidetracked from the goal - stop the blight - as we go around collecting enough meatshields to hit critical mass, for the game to finally tell us that now we can face the AD, who is the load bearing boss of the entire thing. 

DA:I has a lot of issues with plotting, pacing, side quests, even the main quests themselves. The one thing it does right is that - aside from arguably going to Val Royeaux - every single MQ part of DA:I is tied in with Corypheus and the Elder One/Venatori/Red Templar plot. 

[wolfhowwl]

Is not interacting with the blight that bad of a thing? The Darkspawn aren't very interesting.

 

I guess the larger issue here is choosing such an uninspired premise for the main plot that getting away from it could be a good thing.

[In Exile]

Is not interacting with the blight that bad of a thing? The Darkspawn aren't very interesting.

I guess the larger issue here is choosing such an uninspired premise for the main plot that getting away from it could be a good thing.

The entire plot basically spins its wheels - to me that's pretty bad. As much as DAI has issues, at least it has more than two acts.

I don't like the blight as a plot but it can have really interesting content.

[CronoDragoon]

I don't like the blight as a plot but it can have really interesting content.

Right. It's not like the Blight itself is uninteresting: you just need to focus on the interesting parts of it. Last Flight shows that an interesting Blight story can be told, and Legacy contained as much good lore about the Blight as most of Origins.

[Steelcan]

The only addition I'd add to the OP is connecting some of the areas to the main quest in some way.  The Exalted Plains could have connected to one of the contenders for the Orlesian throne, ie go in and clear out the undead for Gaspard or go rescue Celene's troops as a prerequisite to the Halamshiral Ball, or tie in a large Warden presence to the Western Approach, have Samson/Calpernia's base in the Hissing Wastes/Emprise du Lion and so on

[AresKeith]

Yea, would've been great if the other areas had a quest like that or have the main story connected to them more

[CronoDragoon]

The only addition I'd add to the OP is connecting some of the areas to the main quest in some way.  The Exalted Plains could have connected to one of the contenders for the Orlesian throne, ie go in and clear out the undead for Gaspard or go rescue Celene's troops as a prerequisite to the Halamshiral Ball, or tie in a large Warden presence to the Western Approach, have Samson/Calpernia's base in the Hissing Wastes/Emprise du Lion and so on

 

Totally agree. The Exalted Plains was a wasted opportunity to flesh out Briala, Gaspard, and Celene more. I honestly don't think the game does Masked Empire justice on the Orlesian front. They didn't even mention Briala's Eluvian network outside of passing reference in a War Table mission.

[vbibbi]

A lot of great points and ideas in this thread. I will voice my agreement on this issue, and I do think that JoH did a good job of improving on the centralization of plot per zone. One thing I think it did very well was the merging of two seemingly-independent plot threads (first Inquisition and investigating Jaws of Hakkon/befriending the other Avvar) into the zone's overall storyline. That helped make a lot of the smaller quests still seem relevant.

 

One of the underlying issues to the balance of exploration vs. tighter plot is the opposing results of those styles of game design. It makes sense that the designers didn't want to require too many zones in order to advance the plot, as that would discourage main plot-focused players from completing the game if they didn't want to have to go into ten separate large zones and complete a substantial portion of them before they could reach the next plot checkpoint. But then how do designers create multiple zones which still feel relevant to the story without making them mandatory?

 

Rather than saying "In order to reach WEWH the PC must accomplish X in the Exalted Plains" I think it's more practical to say "The PC can reach WEWH without completing the Exalted Plains BUT they will be at a disadvantage as some item/NPC/plot event in the Exalted Plains weighs strongly in the PC's favor when interacting with the Orlesian nobility." Maybe the only way to blackmail all three politicians to work together is by bringing some troop correspondence from that trapped fort or from a Freeman officer. It doesn't mean the PC can't complete WEWH, but it restricts some of the outcomes.

 

So instead of restricting access to the story or forcing the PC to go through a linear route, just link the zones together more coherently and provide incentives to doing more than the bare minimum story content.

[thewatcheruatu]

Yeah, I loved Crestwood. Actually did a bunch of quests in this zone for most of the reasons that the OP mentioned.

 

I didn't do that with any other zone. Everywhere else, I just ran from camp to camp to unlock some cheap power points and barreled straight on to my main plot objective. If I did something not strictly necessary, it was probably by accident (e.g., I captured the Keep with Imshael because I thought I needed to to do it to get to the part of the map with the quest I really wanted to do).

 

I don't know what it is about this game, but I just didn't find any of the zones outside of Crestwood to be interesting. And people keep bringing up Jaws of Hakkon as having found the proper formula, but to me, nothing felt like it required any immediacy there. To me, that's actually one of the most boring zones. I still haven't finished the main plotline, because I barely know why my Inquisitor is needed there.

[Saphiron123]

Can I have one zone that is like the Hissing Wastes? Totally lore, and not plot dependent?

 

All other zones should have main plots. I was kind of hoping that the Exalted Plains had something like that, but it fizzled out before anything really happens and Emerald Graves didn't give any options (although at least you saw Fairbanks and co. move after you beat the Freeman). Hinterlands had a lot of little threads, that were not connected at all. 

 

So, let there be one or two zones totally based on exploration, have proper plots in the other ones with any amount of side content you want, because I don't think people would have complained too much about mmo-ish side content if the main plot in the region would have been fine. Crestwood has mmo-ish side content. 

 

Also, it only occurred to me now, but you can completely ignore what happens in Crestwood and just contact Hawke's Warden friend and leave. There should have been something bad happening there as well, if you ignored it for too long after seeing the rift in the lake. 

 

JoH kind of shows how they're working on the formula and I hope that the next game will improve on it and not repeat. 

Even if it's not plot dependent, it should have a plot of it's own... look at TW3, plenty of amazing stories unrelated to the main plot, but they matter, you care about them. A zone that big should be more then a pretty area with nothing meaningful in it.