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What did you do with Cole? (spoilers!)


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#51
BraveVesperia

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And I have to admit, the whole time I was doing Cole's quest I kept thinking "WHERE WAS SOLAS FOR DA2" if Solas was there with Anders/Justice...omg...game changer for sure lol. Which makes me wonder...how would Solas have reacted to the whole Anders and Justice thing...but that's probably better left for another thread :P

Oh damn, now you're making me wonder if Solas could've provided some insight on Justice/Anders! Maybe even helped them? There was definitely more going on there than 'Justice was corrupted by my anger'.

I'm going to be pondering that for ages now.  :P


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#52
Korva

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I think both paths are good and bad, in different ways.

 

That is part of what I wanted to say, yes. I have my own preference, but I see and appreciate both the beauty and the sadness either way. What Patrick Weekes pulled off with this character is really impressive.

 

My own hope for the character would be that he remains something of a "hybrid" and doesn't diverge too far and too fast into pure-human or pure-spirit. He's still unique, and still himself, if noticeably more otherworldly/pure or mortal/relatable.

 

I really like both paths, and I'm happy to do either depending on the personality/motivations of my Inquisitor. But, there is one thing I'm not as keen on with the spirit path - the last conversation in Skyhold. If Cole's more human, he stresses about the original Cole, the Inquisitor comforts him and he's appreciative of it. That's nicely supported by the way they end up sitting together on the wall. If he's more spirit, however, he wipes his memories of the original Cole, and when the Inquisitor asks if he's okay, he just replies in this deadpan voice something like 'You can keep using that name if you like, I'll stay here and help'. It really freaked me out, how odd he sounded. And the Inquisitor just... walks off. If there was no more dialogue, then they could've just ended the scene on that odd line. But no, he's stood facing away from the Inquisitor, and they just walk off. It just seems a bit... cold in comparison to the human ending to the same conversation.

 

Ugh, yes. That was a grotesquely character-breaking moment. With high approval, at least, it should have gone differently because that implies genuine understanding and care. My Karis would never, ever all but run away from such a dear friend in such a vulnerable state. That moment really dropped the ball on the "choosing spirit means doing my best to open my mind and understand" feel I wanted, and did get in the dinner scene. Might as well have called him a stupid freak while we're at it, or told him good riddance. :angry:

 

If I was more confident and my mind less cluttered, that's the thing I'd want to "fix" first and foremost in fanfic.

 


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#53
RobRam10

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I made him human. I don't want him going back to the Fade I want him to stay. /heh

 

And then I keep him under my armpit and pat him with much much love

You're doing God's work son.



#54
Deanna

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@ BraveVesperia, really, I've been going crazy thinking about that myself, I know the feeling...too well lol
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#55
FromMyths

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I personally made Cole human; it felt too much like you were slowly losing a friend when I saw my friend's choice to make him more spirit.

I trusted that both Solas and Varric had his best interest in mind, but I had to agree with Varric in the end. Maybe being a spirit would give Cole more peace, but it would also prevent him from growing and learning. I wanted him to learn about the world he was part of ever since my Inquisitor had that first conversation with him about life. Maybe problems will come up later, but this choice had pros and cons on both sides; all ends up coming down to your view of what's best and what you believe Cole is capable of.

Not going to deny it; my previous experience with Justice made making the choice difficult. But Justice was also under the influence of Ander's anger; he was a lot better when the only consciousness he needed to understand was his own. He was like Cole in a sense: he had a virtue he was determined to live up to as a spirit, but he was willing to learn/understand what made people 'people' as someone who no longer was part of the Fade. He and Anders just made a fatal mistake when one of them thought fusing together was a good idea (hard to tell who did the convincing in that situation).
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#56
Korva

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Yeah, the only time I can see a human/spirit merger not go badly is with a spirit that embodies a "quieter" virtue and a human with a very stable personality. Like Wynne and her faith spirit. She was a believer, not a zealot who could have twisted the spirit -- and the spirit was content with that instead of burning with a motivation to push its own agenda. Though faith could go either way, really, both "quiet" and "driven", I'd still rank it as "lower-risk" than justice, valor or command.

 

I did not play Awakenings or DA2 so my knowledge is second-hand, but Anders/Justice/Vengeance sounds pretty much like the worst-case scenario for such a merger.



#57
Vesperia58

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The only reason Faith went to Wynne was to keep her alive, even when in Asunder
Spoiler

It also never saw our world unlike Justice who became attached to it.
"A world ruled by order, static and unchanging. I LIKE it". After he said that i thought what in the world did i do? I should of killed it then sorry chantry :(

I pick human cuz i don't want Cole to forget what happend in the White Spire

#58
Biotic Flash Kick

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i made cole leave because i couldnt turn him into a compassion demon

 

"Here Samson, let me help with the pain."



#59
FromMyths

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Yeah, the only time I can see a human/spirit merger not go badly is with a spirit that embodies a "quieter" virtue and a human with a very stable personality. Like Wynne and her faith spirit. She was a believer, not a zealot who could have twisted the spirit -- and the spirit was content with that instead of burning with a motivation to push its own agenda. Though faith could go either way, really, both "quiet" and "driven", I'd still rank it as "lower-risk" than justice, valor or command.
 
I did not play Awakenings or DA2 so my knowledge is second-hand, but Anders/Justice/Vengeance sounds pretty much like the worst-case scenario for such a merger.

Here's an interesting moment I feel that needs to be mentioned on the topic of spirits that gets brought up in DA2:

Anders ends up having a meltdown that really shook him up. When Merrill responds to him in pity, he flips out a bit and tells her this was the danger she herself willingly involved herself in. Her response:

Merrill: Anders...there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't.

In previous banters, Merrill held up to this idea that it was naturally risky to interact with any spirits, whether they followed 'good' virtues of not. And after seeing what became of Ander and Justice's situation, I admit to agreeing with her on the view. Spirits only ever really know the Fade, and the rifts shows what happens to Spirits who Are forced away from the only world they know. In a sense, they're just as complex as people outside the Fade, but most never seem to think beyond the virtue that interest them. Once out of the Fade, they risk becoming demons because of how easily a 'virtue' can twist around.

As for the case of how much affect Spirit-possessing can have on a person, I think that all comes down on the person as well as the Spirit. Wynne had a good number of years of maturing; even in moments of anger, it does nothing to overpower the fact she has been an experienced mage who understood her strengths, faults, and views in life.

Anders and Justice didn't have that experience; even in Awakening, Anders was portrayed as a carefree, if sometimes cowardly, young mage who wanted freedom yet didn't seem to fully understand what he would do beyond his plan for freedom. Justice (and this is just my interpretation of my Awakening playthrough) was a Spirit who was slowly refining his own views of 'justice' and being human, already developing his own consciousness; in short, he was already becoming a bit more human and losing bit by bit what had made him a 'pure' spirit (which, you could say the Faith Spirit was because it hadn't been effected outside the Fade). Even worse, both Anders and Justice could be seen as immature because of that lack of experience with the outside world. Coupled with Ander's more constant anger toward the mages' situation and Justice's still raw conceptions toward the world, and you get the worse situation possible with Spirit-possession.

It's like having your mind fused with the mind of a friend with some views that contrast your own; it's likely end badly because you both have unique life experiences. it would be mentally difficult because there would be two minds who have different ways of solving problems and seeing the world.

#60
N7KnightSabre

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@Korva:  I'm definitely not a "Human's are the best and everything they touch is gold" type person.  Humans, just like anyone else, has good and bad people about them.  And I usually tend to root for the nonhuman characters the most in stories.  Bottom line is that it's the person that matters, not what group they belong to.

 

I think using the specific term of "Human" is wrong here.  I don't want to make him a Human, specifically, I want Cole to be able to grow and become more individualistic.  They just use the term in the game (either because his form looks human or because it's just our default perceptions to call such a complex individual one.  I've seen it all the time in Sci-fi shows, games, etc.).  Does he actually become a fully developed human being?

 

Spirits are wonderful beings, I never said they weren't.  They have a naivety and innocence to keep them pure and non-corrupt.  It's perfect for the fade, but not in the world Cole finds himself in.  He wants to help people and in order to do that he needs to understand the complexities and nuances that each situation presents as everyone of them is different.  I think if he reverts back to being "just a spirit", he'll lose that ability.

 

I think it's best for Cole.  Not best for a "spirit".  Not best for a "human".  Best for Cole.  He wants to help people and the experiences of interacting with the team was enjoyable to him, he's learning so many new things he'd never learn if he wasn't allowed to grow.  


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#61
BraveVesperia

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Ugh, yes. That was a grotesquely character-breaking moment. With high approval, at least, it should have gone differently because that implies genuine understanding and care. My Karis would never, ever all but run away from such a dear friend in such a vulnerable state. That moment really dropped the ball on the "choosing spirit means doing my best to open my mind and understand" feel I wanted, and did get in the dinner scene. Might as well have called him a stupid freak while we're at it, or told him good riddance. :angry:

 

If I was more confident and my mind less cluttered, that's the thing I'd want to "fix" first and foremost in fanfic.

Definitely agree! The previous scene was so lovely, and really gave the impression that the Inquisitor cared and wanted to understand. This scene just seemed like the Inquisitor was thinking "he's just a spirit, who cares". I wouldn't mind if that was a choice (a mean choice...), but the scene really would've benefitted from the Inquisitor trying to understand what's going on there. If Cole stays outside the Fade as a spirit, he'll need more support than 'meh' from them, especially with Solas disappearing and Varric possibly returning to Kirkwall.

 

Heh, I'll have to add that to the pile of extra scenes I'd love to have with Cole. If you do get around to writing something like that, I'd certainly love it read it!


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#62
Icy Magebane

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I made him accept his true nature as a spirit, but I regretted it almost instantly.  He just wasn't the same character and I didn't like being around him nearly as much... if I ever play this game again, I'll probably pick the other path, although I'd rather skip the quest entirely since I don't want to be responsible for having him kill that former Templar... I'm guessing this quest can't easily be skipped, though.



#63
Korva

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Don't worry about killing the templar. :) I won't spoil what happens in the "more human" solution, but the one thing Solas and Varric do agree on is that letting Cole get his revenge would be a very bad idea.


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#64
RobRam10

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I made him accept his true nature as a spirit, but I regretted it almost instantly.  He just wasn't the same character and I didn't like being around him nearly as much... if I ever play this game again, I'll probably pick the other path, although I'd rather skip the quest entirely since I don't want to be responsible for having him kill that former Templar... I'm guessing this quest can't easily be skipped, though.

You have failed us.



#65
Icy Magebane

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You have failed us.

WTH... what did I do wrong?  :wacko:



#66
Icy Magebane

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Don't worry about killing the templar. :) I won't spoil what happens in the "more human" solution, but the one thing Solas and Varric do agree on is that letting Cole get his revenge would be a very bad idea.

Hm... that's good to know!  Now I can choose that path with a clear conscience... :D



#67
RobRam10

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WTH... what did I do wrong?  :wacko:

You trusted that knife ear's advice.



#68
Icy Magebane

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You trusted that knife ear's advice.

:o

 

Well, it was either his advice, or Varric's, and although I disliked them both, I like Varric a bit less, so...



#69
Kulyok

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I think he hurts people much less if he takes a human path. He understands that it brings them pain if he invades personal boundaries and flaunts their most private thoughts for everyone to see. He no longer "kills" someone's consciousness by taking away their memories and interrupting the stream of their thoughts. He seems more adult, more mature. And personally, when I sat with him in that cafe afterwards, it was really nice to talk to human Cole. Just nice. I felt that guy could be my friend.

 

I guess I'm a bit like Solas in that regard - I respect freedom of thought and privacy of one's head, and spirit/demon Cole, I'm afraid, violates it rather heedlessly. The human path explains where he's wrong, and he changes.



#70
TheLastArchivist

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What did you do with him and why? What do you think would benefit Cole more? Become human in order to understand humans, or become spirit and maybe understand humans?

The good thing about Inquisition is that, in many cases, there's no right or wrong. 

 

SPIRIT COLE

The right choice seems to be to make Cole more spirit like. He finally transcends his bad experience in the White Spire and can fully perform his function as a compassion spirit.

 

This choice, however, has a drawback. Cole remains in this world as a spirit, an abnormal situation. The right conclusion to this choice would be for Cole to return to the Fade and help people there. If he remains here, then sooner or later, he might once again become "trapped", like he did with the real Cole and become a demon. And without Solas to help him -since Solas leaves the Inquisition in the end - who'll keep a spirit in check?

 

HUMAN COLE

Now, although this one seems to be the wrong choice - since Cole drives further away from his true nature as a spirit and never learns to transcend the bad memories from the White Spire, becoming "stuck"-, he does learn to cope wih them in an atypical manner. He learns how to deal with problems from this world as one of its inhabitants. And surprisingly, something new happens.

 

You see, he may not have forgiven the former templar as a spirit, but he did forgive the man as a human. In the end, he made it. He transcended the experience, but this time, keeping his core personality fixed on the true Cole's life experience. He knows he's not Cole, but the experiences in the physical realm now mean something. They "stick", as he usually comments, just as they stick for us, living people, allowing us to learn and to grow from them.

 

He grows from the experience and is more capable of helping people. He is still a spirit, but is now less suscetible to possession. Since Cole's intention is to stay in the physical realm, he must be fully equipped to know how it works and to respond to its challenges. Even if Solas departs, he'll be alright. Varric will always be there to guide and counsel him. The next time he faces a similar situation, he'll handle it as a human, becoming immune to possession.



#71
Meer

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I prefer to make Cole more spirit-like. After all, if Solas is to be believed, one can be friends with a spirit as easily as with a man. It felt right to accept a friend as they are, helping them to accept themselves, too. There's no right answer, of course; each path is wonderful in its own right. Yet it just seems to me that whichever route one takes, Cole stands both to lose and gain something monumental. 

To become more human, Cole loses the emotional impartiality and simplicity a spirit enjoys; his abilities fade to some degree too, though you wouldn't notice it in battle. Others no longer forget him easily during his interventions, and in banter with Solas one hears Cole mention that thoughts have grown fuzzy, harder to hear. He embraces the Real Cole, however, and the memory of the boy mixes with Compassion. Creating something new, perhaps. It's likely this Cole can never return to the Fade, should he ever like to.

Make him more spirit-like, however, and Cole returns to his true purpose. I would argue that in removing Real Cole from the equation, the player finally meets the essence of what they've been interacting with all this time: a spirit of Compassion. Though some mention the distance Cole adopts in this route is what makes it less desirable, I wonder whether it's really such a bad thing for the spirit. Its abilities are not diminished, and it may return home at any time (Cole mentions feeling light enough to slip back across the Veil). Real Cole, in this context, might be construed as a burden, a pain eased but ultimately anchoring the spirit. And though he thanks you in both eventualities, Cole/Compassion thanks you for seeing him as he was, allowing him to be what he was meant to be, even when others would force him to change...or worse, revile and reject him without understanding. In a world so often beset by demons, learning to understand spirits (and thus avoiding their perversion) would be an incredible thing.

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#72
Guest_Dandelion_Wine_*

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Human, because it is what Cole chose for himself. That decision defined him and I feel it's unfair to take that away from him.

#73
Kinsz

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Both Varric and Solas have Cole's best interest in mind , neither is being selfish I don't know where people get that they are.

Anyways there isnt a right or wrong choice here Cole seems comfortable with either choice and is happy withh you regardless of which path you put him on. He also able to continue helping people in either case so in the end it's a matter of preference.

#74
Korva

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I think they're more biased than selfish. They absolutely do have his best interest in mind and obviously care for him deeply. It just so happens that "what's best for Cole" in their minds conveniently coincides with their own preferences. ;) That's very human and believable, actually, so I don't really blame either one of them though I do think they're a bit too focused on only one side of our friend. Both paths work and eventually make him happy and more and better, and I find both joy and sorrow in each solution -- it's just personal preference that sways me towards the spirit side, so I'm hardly free of bias myself.

 

My own preference aside, though, I'm happy that many folks here agree both sides work with no real right or wrong, because I think loving this character means appreciating both sides of him despite there being a bittersweet edge to both.


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#75
Qunquistador

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I encouraged him to be more human. Initially I was more concerned with his safety and sense of well being and thought the amulet was the best way to protect him. But then it seemed to me that Cole had already transcended his initial purpose and was already becoming more human. At that point, it only seemed natural to encourage to be what he was already moving toward. Not to say I didn't like him as he was. He's the one companion I felt genuinely responsible for and the only one I would never send packing no matter how much the others disapproved.

 

I love that there's so much he doesn't understand about the world, but he wants to help and understand anyway. Maybe that's why I also like the decision to make him more human. He's like my a child and as such I want him to have as many positive experiences as possible. I want him to learn and grow. I feel he can do that more so as a human. And with those new experiences and the understanding that comes with, he can do more to help people, which is what he lives to do.

 

I think my favorite Cole moment is when Sera calls him a "him" instead of "it" and Cole gets super excited and thanks her. To me that said that even though he would be content as what he was, it doesn't compare to the joy and excitement of being remembered, becoming human and seeing the world anew.