Let me see my Kadeth (Dalish Mage Inquisitor) can already open and close rifts, enter the fade physically at will, destoy demons and, I assume spirits with a flick of his wrist if he chooses to do so and, making him more powerful is worse? Even before the Well he cold rip both Thedas and the Fade to shreds if he chose to do so. About all that's left is for him to become a god, and what's so bad about serving an Elven god when you are Dalish?
Of course he drank.
Well as you say, you're not just a mere soldier as the Inquisitor, you're the leader of an entire military and political organization. And you don't become an abomination. The nature of the Well is explained as a geas made up of the will of all the priests of Mythal, not possession by Mythal.
This all sounds like superstition, the sort that thinks a mage can turn into an abomination every time they sneeze.
They can, apparently. They're just very unlikely to at any one sneeze, and even less likely as they get stronger and wiser.
As for the detail that the Inquisitor is geas'd rather than possessed, I don't see why that matters for this purpose. My objection to this is that the Inquisitor irresponsibly gave up his/her free will to a being/force he/she wasn't sure was benevolent. In fact, if Abelas is supposed to have gained influence over you I'd argue you have good reason to fear that this force is in balance more malevolent than anything else. That Mythal and Abelas do not take up residence inside the Inquisitor does little to make this less questionable.
As for my assertion that it's worse for a Mage Inquisitor to do so, the fact is that he/she has a form of power that the other two do not. All three classes have the Anchor, and the Inquisition, and are capable of fighting just about anything to a standstill, but the mage has magic. That's arguably a minor problem next to the (for all the Inquisitor knows) malevolent Well getting its hands on the other three bits, but with some creativity it can be used to do some nasty things.
In summary: The Inquisitor trusts his/her free will to something that can think for itself, despite (to the best of my knowledge) not knowing where it keeps its brain. While I understand why an elven Inquisitor might do so under the circumstances, I view it as having very serious potential to backfire. And those who do so for no reason other than because they want more power are just nuts.
Not really. Mythal actually existed at some point and died, joining with Flemeth some time later. So, it's not the same as what Chantry propaganda preaches. Learning who Fen'Harel is also refutes that notion.
But the Inquisitor doesn't know that during the well scene.
He/she doesn't also know Solas' true identity, so your point is actually rather moot.
I'll take the Morrigan stance: this is one of the only chances we see or hear of to get some actual account of what happened to the Elves, their culture, and their knowledge. I think it'd be kind of silly to turn it down.
I'll take the Morrigan stance: this is one of the only chances we see or hear of to get some actual account of what happened to the Elves, their culture, and their knowledge. I think it'd be kind of silly to turn it down.
Unless there was some very serious cost to it. Good thing that's not true.
As soon as I saw a video calling the Dalish Inquisitor a "shemlen" it, unfortunately, ruined any chance that I would personally play as one. The Dalish Inquisitor even said "this Mythal".
Well, there are lapses in the narrative where the game forgets that the Inquisitor can be non-human; it's why a dwarven protagonist doesn't have specific dialogue when Branka is talking about how lyrium was managed by the carta and acts oblivious to the workings of a carta, or why Abelas doesn't use the elven name for the dwarves (durgen’len) when speaking with Inquisitor Cadash.
"Shemlen" was very clearly a derogatory term in DA:O and a curse word in DA II.
You're confusing 'shemlen', which is simply the elven word the Dalish use for 'human', with 'shem', a derogatory slang term for humans.
Add to that Merill in Act 3 of DA II praying at Mythal's altar and explaining the "why's" of it to Hawke...It's pathetic. Not to mention the Dalish Inquisitor mage being a "first" to their clan's Keeper and not knowing any of the language. It was definitely disappointing. Given the Chantrification of the Inquisition it would have served far better had the elven Inquisitor, in my opinion been a "city elf".
Actually, Inquisitor Lavellan speaks elvish to Mihris and Solas on certain occasions, and even fully understands the ancient elven spoken by Solas' friend in his personal quest. The problem is the "hiccups" in the game where this is conveniently forgotten because of the overemphasis on the Andrastian human perspective.
It was definitely disappointing. Given the Chantrification of the Inquisition it would have served far better had the elven Inquisitor, in my opinion been a "city elf".
Or the developers should have simply fleshed out the elven, dwarven, and qunari aspects of the game more, instead of tipping the balance in the favor of the Andrastian human.
As to the OP it depends on how one views the well, as "power"? or as I view it..."knowledge". Alas, as I said, I will not play a Dalish so I personally will not see the Inquisitor drink other than viewing it from an outside source, as I agree with a few of the posters who believe only an elf should imbibe of the well's knowledge.
Yeah, I think Lavellan could see the Well of Sorrows as a source of knowledge, one that could reveal untold secrets about Elvhenan and the Beyond, and could irrevocably benefit the People for generations to come.
For whom? Shattered that? The only false thing is the believe that Tevinter destroyed Arlathan. So, what? Even if they fought among themselves elves were still great and created that Arlathan, lived there in a luxury of magic everywhere and so on. From TME you can learn more about nature of ancient elves but your Inquisitor did not read TME and can only see the glory of Elvenen all around in the Temple. For a true believer even Dales is not a real setback, after all shamlens WERE involved.
Shattered it for elve who believed the ancent elves were truly wise and knowing. The fact is that all that knowledge and power let to that pride the brought them down. What good is the knowledge if it leads to that arrogance and that self destruction. And the Dales is not just a set back.It's the heart string of every modern elf. The fact remain that pride is what brought it down make it even more so of a wound knowing that elves still have not learnt that lesson.
You're forgetting one key thing, OP.
It's either your Inquisitor, or Morrigan, taking the power of the Well. My Dalish mage drank not because she wanted the power, but because she didn't trust Morrigan with the power.
I'm sure some people can role play with the idea that an Inquisitor is willing to submit to the ambiguous will of a God, but that's not the case for everyone. And my Dalish mage did not undertake this task lightly.
My human mage on the other hand will absolutely be doing it for the power.
This is another grey-dark "choice" that I see my characters taking almost every time. Just like I've always done the Dark Ritual. And let the Architect live. And let Avernus continue his research.
The belief is that elves were better then they are now, It was not just belief in the gods, it was that the elves were more. Seeing that the fall of the elves was caused by the elves shattered that. The elves of old were no different from the human now. It was not faith in the gods, it was faith in what we were. Added with what really happened in the dales showed that the elves destroyed themselves with pride an arrogance twice over.
As Hawen's clan explicitly states, the scroll reads that humans and elves started the war between the Dales and Orlais. I'm not certain why some people think it's one-sided when the scroll reveals that this simply isn't the case.
As for the ancient elves, if the servants pulled a Snowpiercer against the Arlathan Dreamers who lorded over them, and then Tevinter took advantage of the situation to enslave the elves in the aftermath, I don't see how arrogance is their downfall.
As Hawen's clan explicitly states, the scroll reads that humans and elves started the war between the Dales and Orlais. I'm not certain why some people think it's one-sided when the scroll reveals that this simply isn't the case.
As for the ancient elves, if the servants pulled a Snowpiercer against the Arlathan Dreamers who lorded over them, and then Tevinter took advantage of the situation to enslave the elves in the aftermath, I don't see how arrogance is their downfall.
The elves stubbornness cut themselves off from the outside world which lead to their antagonism. Then the elves broke the last straw with the killing of a human woman in a near by town because she had a elven lover who left the elves for her.
The conflict would never of happen if the elves were not so prideful.
And you don't see that the war that happen with the elves that weaken themselves so much did not lead to there downfall?
The elves stubbornness cut themselves off from the outside world which lead to their antagonism.
The Dales closed their borders with Orlais, an empire created by conquering and converting their neighbors. We also know there were border tensions between the two, and templars were trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales.
Then the elves broke the last straw with the killing of a human woman in a near by town because she had a elven lover who left the elves for her.
In a scroll where the murder of an elf by humans took place before the Emerald Knights even took an expedition to Red Crossing to capture or kill one of their own (who they thought would threaten the security of their nation by divulging state secrets to their enemy), and where the murder of the human lover's elf was committed by humans. It's hardly as one-sided as you're insinuating.
The conflict would never of happen if the elves were not so prideful.
You're omitting a lot of facts to place all the blame on the elves.
And you don't see that the war that happen with the elves that weaken themselves so much did not lead to there downfall?
Orlais was supported by the Circles of Magi and the Order of Templars. The fact that the Dales lost the war doesn't change that we learn how the inception of the war was caused by humans and elves; it's explicitly stated by Hawen's clan that they were wrong because the scroll reads that both humans and elves played a part in the start of the war, after all.
**** the Chantry. I owe them nothing. I will gain power and ascend into godhood.
The Dales closed their borders with Orlais, an empire created by conquering and converting their neighbors. We also know there were border tensions between the two, and templars were trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales.
In a scroll where the murder of an elf by humans took place before the Emerald Knights even took an expedition to Red Crossing to capture or kill one of their own (who they thought would threaten the security of their nation by divulging state secrets to their enemy), and where the murder of the human lover's elf was committed by humans. It's hardly as one-sided as you're insinuating.
You're omitting a lot of facts to place all the blame on the elves.
Orlais was supported by the Circles of Magi and the Order of Templars. The fact that the Dales lost the war doesn't change that we learn how the inception of the war was caused by humans and elves; it's explicitly stated by Hawen's clan that they were wrong because the scroll reads that both humans and elves played a part in the start of the war, after all.
1. Does not counter my point. You think the best way to counter invaders is to alienate you county from potential Allies? No country that does that has ever survived.
2.The issue is reason. It was never about revenge. It was about bitterness. Yes it was not one sided, but they never did anything to deffer the conflict. They made it to the point they could not fix it.
3. Which only happen because the elves aliened themselves from the point of the 2nd blight.
4.But elves were the ones that worsen to the point of no return.
**** the Chantry. I owe them nothing. I will gain power and ascend into godhood.
At the risk of feeding a troll, don't you think gaining power at the cost of losing your free will makes you less godlike?
All it proves is the stupidity of Chantry rhetoric. Some people would choose to drink from the Well of Sorrows, even if they have an inkling of what that means, it is not 'something mages do.' The only difference is that a mage drinking from it might be more dangerous, a valid concern I grant you but they're still human. Should they be without ambition, without values (like knowledge), ooze wisdom and foresightedness all because they have magic? Should they be more than human in every sense? Why hold them to an unobtainable ideal?
As I see it you can either see mages as people first in which case their fuckups are human and not 'mage' fuckups, or you can see them as mages and expect them to be objectively better in just about every respect than an average human. In which case, why shouldn't they be in charge?
All it proves is the stupidity of Chantry rhetoric. Some people would choose to drink from the Well of Sorrows, even if they have an inkling of what that means, it is not 'something mages do.' The only difference is that a mage drinking from it might be more dangerous, a valid concern I grant you but they're still human. Should they be without ambition, without values (like knowledge), ooze wisdom and foresightedness all because they have magic? Should they be more than human in every sense? Why hold them to an unobtainable ideal?
As I see it you can either see mages as people first in which case their fuckups are human and not 'mage' fuckups, or you can see them as mages and expect them to be objectively better in just about every respect than an average human. In which case, why shouldn't they be in charge?
Everyone should come as close to the "oozing wisdom and foresightedness" ideal as possible, and frankly if any mage doesn't come damn close it can be a serious problem. Does that answer your objections?
Everyone should come as close to the "oozing wisdom and foresightedness" ideal as possible, and frankly if any mage doesn't come damn close it can be a serious problem. Does that answer your objections?
No.
No.
Okay. Which part didn't it answer?
Okay. Which part didn't it answer?
You went ahead and levelled the playing field:
Everyone should come as close to the "oozing wisdom and foresightedness" ideal as possible
And then you go ahead and unlevel it again:
and frankly if any mage doesn't come damn close it can be a serious problem.
I suppose I'm not really getting what you're saying. Everyone should aim to embody something (wisdom) but it's more worrying if a mage does not. Is the implicit message here then that mages should indeed be expected to be generally 'more' than the average person?
Is the implicit message here then that mages should indeed be expected to be generally 'more' than the average person?
Yes. And so should muggles. Just because a muggle being an idiot doesn't mean a barn burns down or an abomination forms doesn't mean they should be idiots. I'd argue that mages should be held to this more strictly in some cases, but only because and only when the case is such that being a mage means that a lapse could be a disaster.
All I know is that my Inquisitor wasn't giving Morrigan any additional power, so the choice was made for him. Tbh though, I'd rather have had the option to refuse to allow anyone to drink and then handle Corypheus a different way. Either that, or refusing and then learning that there is no other way, then failing to win the game because of that initial stubbornness. That also would have been good.
The key is "irresponsible." It's not irresponsible to do the thing you need to do in order to prevent the world from ending. Your alternative is to let a mage you hardly know take the well's power. And it can certainly be argued that a mage is more capable of dealing with an arcane phenomenon than someone who may not have spent their lives learning to understand and control arcane forces. Given the limited choices, it's the only thing that's really responsible.They can, apparently. They're just very unlikely to at any one sneeze, and even less likely as they get stronger and wiser.
As for the detail that the Inquisitor is geas'd rather than possessed, I don't see why that matters for this purpose. My objection to this is that the Inquisitor irresponsibly gave up his/her free will to a being/force he/she wasn't sure was benevolent. In fact, if Abelas is supposed to have gained influence over you I'd argue you have good reason to fear that this force is in balance more malevolent than anything else. That Mythal and Abelas do not take up residence inside the Inquisitor does little to make this less questionable.
As for my assertion that it's worse for a Mage Inquisitor to do so, the fact is that he/she has a form of power that the other two do not. All three classes have the Anchor, and the Inquisition, and are capable of fighting just about anything to a standstill, but the mage has magic. That's arguably a minor problem next to the (for all the Inquisitor knows) malevolent Well getting its hands on the other three bits, but with some creativity it can be used to do some nasty things.
In summary: The Inquisitor trusts his/her free will to something that can think for itself, despite (to the best of my knowledge) not knowing where it keeps its brain. While I understand why an elven Inquisitor might do so under the circumstances, I view it as having very serious potential to backfire. And those who do so for no reason other than because they want more power are just nuts.
The key is "irresponsible." It's not irresponsible to do the thing you need to do in order to prevent the world from ending. Your alternative is to let a mage you hardly know take the well's power. And it can certainly be argued that a mage is more capable of dealing with an arcane phenomenon than someone who may not have spent their lives learning to understand and control arcane forces. Given the limited choices, it's the only thing that's really responsible.
For Morrigan to get the Well's Power and its geas causes fewer problems for the world as a whole if Mythal turns out not to have its best interests at heart than a geas'd Inquisitor would. (Especially if the Inquisitor is also a mage.) Though I suppose Morrigan herself might not have the world's best interests at heart either; how relevant that is depends on what exactly the geas does and how much free will she has left. As for the bit where mages are more capable of dealing with arcane phenomena than non-mages, I don't see why that's relevant here.
Shattered it for elve who believed the ancent elves were truly wise and knowing. The fact is that all that knowledge and power let to that pride the brought them down. What good is the knowledge if it leads to that arrogance and that self destruction. And the Dales is not just a set back.It's the heart string of every modern elf. The fact remain that pride is what brought it down make it even more so of a wound knowing that elves still have not learnt that lesson.
Darling (sorry, could not resist 
) once again, we are talking about life-time believer. One day that believer discovered a Temple of the Goddess he\she believed in his whole life. This Temple is everything he\she could dream of. An ancient guard of that Temple told that ONE fact about elven history was not exactly as believer used to see it - shemlens did not destroy the great city once was. So what? Gods are constantly fighting among themselves, is it a reason to call them "unwise"? No. Ok, ancient elves also fought among themselves - how does it make them less wise? Same with Dales (which happen in "modern" elves days, still included inadequate response from shemlens and do not change much).
Again and again - for a believer it's not the reason to stop believe in gods, but only to wish to find more about exciting history of the people. And the well is a source of that history (among other interesting things).
I do not try to stop you from RP an elf who would shake his believe after one word from a stranger - it's your game, why would I? But there are plenty of reasons for other types of RP.
Hmm....it appears I have been misunderstood by some people. I'm no Chantry apologist, and I couldn't care less about what benefits it or not.
The point I wanted to make is that the situation at the well feels like a high-stakes version of the Harrowing to me. Or basically any other situation where a spirit - usually a demon - says they'll give you something really desirable if you let them in. I think it behooves anyone to be very suspicious of such an offer, I just singled out mages because they would've seen such situations before.
So given that there are rather suspicious similarities between a demon offering you something desirable if you let them in, and the Well offering you something really desirable if you let yourself be controlled by Mythal's will, I think any mage who drinks from the Well would be more likely to fall to a demon's temptation and become possessed, which would validate the Chantry's desire for tighter control of mages. And that would be a very bad thing IMO.
What I also see is that some people are caught in the "divine exceptionalism" trap, which goes right along a real-world cultural predisposition for being more lenient towards flaws of a religion just because it's religion as opposed to any other kind of ideology. For anyone actually thinking about this, and being aware of the historical fact that one religion's gods are another's demons rather often, it should be obvious that the fact that an entity is regarded as a god says nothing, absolutely nothing about its motivations and whether or not they're in line with our own, even less so much in line that we trust them to take control of us.
Lastly, about not trusting Morrigan, that is a non-argument. Whoever drinks from the well will not be able to do what they want if who- or whatever holds their leash doesn't want it. Given how Morrigan appears in DAI, I'd trust her over Mythal/Flemeth or Solas/Fen'harel, but again, that's irrelevant. if she drinks from the well, she's no longer in control. and what she wanted or not does not matter anymore if it isn't aligned with the will behind the geas. The question is not what I can do, or will do, with that knowledge, or Morrigan, but what we will be forced to do with it, or prevented from doing.
My main Inquisitor wants that knowledge. It's almost the embodiment of her deepest desires. The price asked for it, however, is not acceptable. One of the very few not acceptable prices she can imagine. She'd have given an eye (that would've been nicely reminiscent of Norse mythology), or a hand, her fertility or her beauty for it, She'd given up the power she had attained as the leader of the Inquisition after Corypheus was defeated with no regrets for that knowledge. Her ability to shape her own fate, however, her individual autonomy, that she will not give away, because there is nothing and no one else she would entrust with it. History, and countless tales, appear to support her suspicion.
Edit:
I can see a very traditionalist elf drinking from the Well. However, I would still see it as unwise. Even a traditionalist elf would know that Mythal embodies both justice and vengeance. The elven gods are all two-faced. Suspicion is appropriate.
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